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Old
07-19-2006, 03:53 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wpg_habsfan View Post
I know I would love the Jets to come back, but the real problem is the arena is 1500 seats short of NHL size arena comparable to Edmonton's arena. I think it would be better if we got a WHL team. I would so buy season tickets to a junior team before I would buy season tickets to an NHL team.

There's no doubt with the new NHL deal, a Winnipeg franchise could compete, but the main road block is the small arena...
An arena can always be expanded. Over the years, the old forum was expanded how many times, 3 or 4?

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07-19-2006, 04:00 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
An arena can always be expanded. Over the years, the old forum was expanded how many times, 3 or 4?
True, but there really isn't any room. They built it downtown, so they would have to close a couple main roads if they wanted to expand it. Plus it just opened 2 years ago. I doubt the city/province would fund an expansion any time soon...

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07-19-2006, 04:15 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
That means nothing because they gave away a ******** of free tickets and those are counted. As mentioned, Winnipeg would be a better choice and has a new arena already.
Any proofs to backup your statement ? No ? That's what I tought.

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07-19-2006, 04:22 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Yes there is enough corporate support. Its not 1995 anymore.(Economical morosity is gone from this town) I dont know why even as Quebecer we are so pessimist, hockey is in our blood. Name the last city finishing last in the league 4 years in a row with a 13-14k avg attendance. Quebec City.

CGI, Ubisoft, Nurun-Quebecor, Cirque du Soleil, Desjardins, Tanguay, Simons, Videotron just to name a few that were much smaller or simply inexistent back in 1995. Im not even talking about the robotics/high tech companies in the new technological park. Then theres Pepsi etc all the traditional ones. Quebec's private sector doubled in the last 10 years and will re-double in the next 10 years. I know because im part of it. Hiring in Quebec City nowadays is like preaching in the desert, nobody is available, the last 2 guy I hired are from Montreal. My father who is hiring as well says the same thing, 3 tunisian and 1 algerian are his last 4 hiring. Its a total crisis at most government, they have huge trouble replacing the leaving boomers.

All the others US market have much more population, but in terms of hockey fans, its not even close. Seattle(4m pop and close to the western hockey fanbase) would come in 2nd, I dont know why this city doesnt have an hockey team yet. Nashville--->Houston is only logical.

Dont get me wrong, I know it would be hard, theres an arena to build and a concession to move. But I think it could work with the new economic system of the league and a serious, very rich parent. (Like Mr.RedBull billionaire.)

To conclude, a small but I think really meaningfull question.

Any other city would compare in terms of selling the NHL and fostering rivalries? Whats better than brigging back the biggest rivalry of all(one that compares with Tor-mtl and Cal-Ed and Bos-mtl)? Thats what the league needs, now and in the future.

Québec City is a village. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Ottawa has TWICE the workforce and TWICE the business that Québec City has and STILL has trouble supporting the team with corporate ticks.

Before a team goes back to Québec City, some bigger US markets will get a sniff.

FYI: Quebecor's head office is in Montreal. Nurun is a teeny weeny part of it. The Cirque cannot even be considered a major player in the economy, since its real operations are in Montreal and in the US. Desjardins was there. Tanguay was there. Simons was there. Plus, it's a very small retail chain. Videotron? It's head office is in Montreal.

Listen, you can brag about your small economy, but you need to get out of town a bit. Québec City is still a minor circuit city. Compared to Montreal, it's like Toronto to NYC.


Last edited by deandebean: 07-19-2006 at 04:28 PM.
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07-19-2006, 04:25 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
Any proofs to backup your statement ? No ? That's what I tought.
Selling out 35 games with 15 000 in the arena is nothing. There were games during that period where they had trouble getting 12 000 azzzes in the stands. The sellouts usually came after christmas. I remember Martin Madden doing the spin doctor because of the empty seats in the arena.

Now, imagine a 20 000 seats arena with about 200 corporate boxes to fill.

Pipe dream. Québec City is as much an NHL market as Montreal a MLB market. Both are dead because both lacked the corporate support. And both will never relive because they would STILL lack the corporate support.

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07-19-2006, 05:07 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
Québec City is a village. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Ottawa has TWICE the workforce and TWICE the business that Québec City has and STILL has trouble supporting the team with corporate ticks.

Before a team goes back to Québec City, some bigger US markets will get a sniff.

FYI: Quebecor's head office is in Montreal. Nurun is a teeny weeny part of it. The Cirque cannot even be considered a major player in the economy, since its real operations are in Montreal and in the US. Desjardins was there. Tanguay was there. Simons was there. Plus, it's a very small retail chain. Videotron? It's head office is in Montreal.

Listen, you can brag about your small economy, but you need to get out of town a bit. Québec City is still a minor circuit city. Compared to Montreal, it's like Toronto to NYC.
Wow, dont say im on a bubble.

Cirque 3 main bosses are Quebec City native, was 10 times smaller(at least) in 1995, they can now buy a team. Its a 4 billion business nowadays, high growth. They talked about it with the media here.
Videotron is Quebec City native, 2 times bigger, high growth because of the phone business. They talked about bringing back the nords too.
Desjardins around 50% growth since 1995
Tanguay is at least 3 times bigger today(They own the Oceanic and Remparts) , same for Simons.
Quebecor/Nurun, is bigger I was just stating it because they made comments about acquiring a team for Quebec City.

Head office and investments is 2 things. Montreal growth helps Quebec City as much as Quebec City growth, since its money from Quebec as a province and I think its fair to believe most people here would like to have 2 teams.

Btw. I usually work in all Montreal, Toronto and Quebec so keep your nonsense comments for when you actually know something. Its a concensus between the business class that Quebec City is on a high growth because its a very competitive/productive city, the census numbers confirms it!

Why do you think the maverick owner wants to keep the pens in pittsburgh, because its his native town. When it comes to hockey its not about having actual employees in the city, its about being ready to put some $$ where the heart is.


Last edited by SOLR: 07-19-2006 at 05:24 PM.
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07-19-2006, 05:23 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
Selling out 35 games with 15 000 in the arena is nothing. There were games during that period where they had trouble getting 12 000 azzzes in the stands. The sellouts usually came after christmas. I remember Martin Madden doing the spin doctor because of the empty seats in the arena.

Now, imagine a 20 000 seats arena with about 200 corporate boxes to fill.

Pipe dream. Québec City is as much an NHL market as Montreal a MLB market. Both are dead because both lacked the corporate support. And both will never relive because they would STILL lack the corporate support.
Of course there was some empty seat it was a terrible team for so long. The 6k attendance in carolina and miami(when they had mediocre teams) are much worse than our 10-11k low ball value. Sorry again, you obviously should learn to talk about things you know about. Our avg attendance numbers compared to team success will remain one of the best.

Quebec cant support a place like the Bell Centre, thats for sure, you dont need that to be in the NHL either. Its the biggest place in the league or the 2nd biggest.

18500/130 boxes is doable in Quebec, we wouldnt be in the low attendance both corporate and regular you can be sure of that.

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07-19-2006, 05:33 PM
  #58
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Full page in Journal de Montreal today , interview with Gary Bettman -
QUOTE
"The league has no intention of expanding to any city in the coming years"

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07-19-2006, 05:49 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
Any proofs to backup your statement ? No ? That's what I tought.
The proof is in the media. Even today many small market teams give away tickets to boost attendance numbers. This is why a lot of people want the teams to give the real attendance of people who show up and paid. I'll find the site if I can but someone posted a while back showing how for many years Quebec City had trouble drawing 12,000 a game and that was in the old higher scoring NHL. I am not saying it would be impossible for a team to work there but it would be very hard.

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07-19-2006, 05:50 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tritone View Post
Full page in Journal de Montreal today , interview with Gary Bettman -
QUOTE
"The league has no intention of expanding to any city in the coming years"
But a team can moved...

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Old
07-19-2006, 05:50 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Wow, dont say im on a bubble.

Cirque 3 main bosses are Quebec City native, was 10 times smaller(at least) in 1995, they can now buy a team. Its a 4 billion business nowadays, high growth. They talked about it with the media here.
Videotron is Quebec City native, 2 times bigger, high growth because of the phone business. They talked about bringing back the nords too.
Desjardins around 50% growth since 1995
Tanguay is at least 3 times bigger today(They own the Oceanic and Remparts) , same for Simons.
Quebecor/Nurun, is bigger I was just stating it because they made comments about acquiring a team for Quebec City.

Head office and investments is 2 things. Montreal growth helps Quebec City as much as Quebec City growth, since its money from Quebec as a province and I think its fair to believe most people here would like to have 2 teams.

Btw. I usually work in all Montreal, Toronto and Quebec so keep your nonsense comments for when you actually know something. Its a concensus between the business class that Quebec City is on a high growth because its a very competitive/productive city, the census numbers confirms it!

Why do you think the maverick owner wants to keep the pens in pittsburgh, because its his native town. When it comes to hockey its not about having actual employees in the city, its about being ready to put some $$ where the heart is.
I think the NHL will implement a franchise, if they ever do, in a reasonable TV market which Québec is not.

Luxury boxes are popular with corporations (when the team is winning that is) beucase they can send their important clients there, which is what they do in Montréal at the Bell Centre. Don't forget that it's one of the busiest amphitheatre in North America, it attracts lots of really popular shows, which is really, really, really not the case for our town(yes i'm from Québec).

The cost of the tickets has increased quite a lot too. I remember in 1993, My father brought me to a nords game... the price was 50$ for seats that were the closest to the board. Now for the same price you'd be in the top of the building. Maybe company growth has increased, but so did the price of the tickets. I'd love a team to come back, and i'm sure many people do, but i'm less sure if so many of them would be ready to pay ridiculous amounts of money for season tickets.

About the new amphitheatre, if I remember well, Tanguay himself said that there was no need to upgrade the Colisée...

And it's not because companies have grown in the past years that they'll automatically invest money in a sport franchise, which is a bad investment, except in some cases...

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07-19-2006, 05:51 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le depisteur View Post
But a team can moved...
Other places like Houston or Portland would likely be looked at first.

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Old
07-19-2006, 05:54 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnside_1 View Post
And it's not because companies have grown in the past years that they'll automatically invest money in a sport franchise, which is a bad investment, except in some cases...
So true about the only "safe" bet in sports to make money is the NFL. Most people buy teams for the prestige and the ego...mostly the ego.

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07-19-2006, 05:56 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le depisteur View Post
But a team can moved...
Not according to Bettman, no movement and no expansion. Not even taking into account the fact that the City of Quebec and his citizens don't want an NHL team.

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07-19-2006, 06:01 PM
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Not according to Bettman, no movement and no expansion. Not even taking into account the fact that the City of Quebec and his citizens don't want an NHL team.
You mean miss boucher? I doubt its true for the population.

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07-19-2006, 06:13 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Burnside_1 View Post
Luxury boxes are popular with corporations (when the team is winning that is) beucase they can send their important clients there, which is what they do in Montréal at the Bell Centre. Don't forget that it's one of the busiest amphitheatre in North America, it attracts lots of really popular shows, which is really, really, really not the case for our town(yes i'm from Québec).
Of course, when a very marketable group like the Black Eyes Peas will never play again here because our arena is among the worst they have seen. Anyone who have seen that show know what im talking about. It was 40+ inside, they had some sound system problem because of the sub standard power supply etc etc.
The groups dont want to come here because of the place and people dont want to go to shows because of the place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnside_1 View Post
About the new amphitheatre, if I remember well, Tanguay himself said that there was no need to upgrade the Colisée...
Miss bouchée can say what she wants we need a new one, hockey or not. What we have is a relic from before 1900. Ok it was rebuilt etc, but its sub standard on every levels possible. If we can spend 25m on a new police station in Ste-foy, why cant we pay 200m for a new arena that actually foster some more economic growth? Doesnt mean the city needs to get involved either. Tanguay said that for his junior team and its comprehensible, he also said we would need a new one for an NHL team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnside_1
And it's not because companies have grown in the past years that they'll automatically invest money in a sport franchise, which is a bad investment, except in some cases...
True, most sports are not an investment anyway.

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07-19-2006, 06:17 PM
  #67
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I'd like a team in Quebec just for the rivalry, but the hyperbole being spread by SOLR in this thread is simply ridiculous.

Assuming that a new Quebec franchise would have 2.5-3 million fans willing to attend games is a number he's pulling out of thin air; just like the 1.2 million he gave Winnipeg+SK (while Manitoba+SK have over 2 million people). Quebec City might be enjoying growth, especially in the business sector, but it's still a lower-tier metropolitain area when it comes to professional sports.

SOLR, before you start yelling that the census would prove this or that, go here: http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/site/englis...01/density2001

Compare Ottawa and Quebec City and you'll see why people are saying that Quebec is noticeably smaller than Ottawa. Revenue growth and size of area headquartered companies don't matter too much in this equation unless you're talking luxury boxes, or else Redmond Washington (well, Seattle really) would have three teams in each professional league.

What matters to leagues looking at where to place teams is metro area population; that 720,000ish number is the only one that really matters.

Please explain your 2.5-3 million fan figure, I'd love to hear a thorough accounting, without assuming 0% Habs support outside the Montreal metro area.

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07-19-2006, 06:33 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Montrealer View Post
I'd like a team in Quebec just for the rivalry, but the hyperbole being spread by SOLR in this thread is simply ridiculous.

Assuming that a new Quebec franchise would have 2.5-3 million fans willing to attend games is a number he's pulling out of thin air; just like the 1.2 million he gave Winnipeg+SK (while Manitoba+SK have over 2 million people). Quebec City might be enjoying growth, especially in the business sector, but it's still a lower-tier metropolitain area when it comes to professional sports.

SOLR, before you start yelling that the census would prove this or that, go here: http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/site/englis...01/density2001

Compare Ottawa and Quebec City and you'll see why people are saying that Quebec is noticeably smaller than Ottawa. Revenue growth and size of area headquartered companies don't matter too much in this equation unless you're talking luxury boxes, or else Redmond Washington (well, Seattle really) would have three teams in each professional league.

What matters to leagues looking at where to place teams is metro area population; that 720,000ish number is the only one that really matters.

Please explain your 2.5-3 million fan figure, I'd love to hear a thorough accounting, without assuming 0% Habs support outside the Montreal metro area.

1) 2001 census.(Was Quebec one city back then + the growth wasnt really started)
2) Quebec Metro area is always stripped of the second 2nd level(lac beauport, a bit beauce, valcartier etc), because theres a small amount of road time and not directly connected like Montreal is, but its about to be done with the current growth. Want to look at the real numbers make a first circle of all the cities at 20 min of roadtime around the arena and you'll get around 1.2m. (From Laval it can take more than 30-40 min to reach the bell centre with the traffic?, in Quebec City 40 min and youre talking about deep in beauce since theres no traffic at game times)
3) Assume some clients from Montreal/Boston/Toronto/Tourists (200k)
4) Trois Rivieres(300k)
5) Saguenay (200k?)
6) Complete Beauce (150k?)
7) Eastern(Rimouski etc) (150k?)

Ok im at about 2.2m now, I said 2.0-2.5m no? Quebec City is growing in a major way atm. (since 3-4 years now and it will grow more in the next 5 because of the public sector retraitees) (Theres 150k+ employees to replace on a 4% unemployed rate...thats nearly purely immigration my friends) To illustrate that Ubisoft started a school here since they were unable to fill their positions at all.

I may have a different perspective since Im literally "on the field" as they say.


Last edited by SOLR: 07-19-2006 at 06:40 PM.
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07-19-2006, 06:34 PM
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07-19-2006, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Of course, when a very marketable group like the Black Eyes Peas will never play again here because our arena is among the worst they have seen. Anyone who have seen that show know what im talking about. It was 40+ inside, they had some sound system problem because of the sub standard power supply etc etc.
The groups dont want to come here because of the place and people dont want to go to shows because of the place.



Miss bouchée can say what she wants we need a new one, hockey or not. What we have is a relic from before 1900. Ok it was rebuilt etc, but its sub standard on every levels possible. If we can spend 25m on a new police station in Ste-foy, why cant we pay 200m for a new arena that actually foster some more economic growth? Doesnt mean the city needs to get involved either. Tanguay said that for his junior team and its comprehensible, he also said we would need a new one for an NHL team.



True, most sports are not an investment anyway.

200m is a lot of money, I really doubt it could be financed by private funds only, especially for such a high risk. The first thing promoters will do is make promises to the population, make them dream (blindly) and then blame the town and the government for their lack of support. Just like Aubut did... There's no way that anyone is going to finance a brand new arena privately. And you'll also hear people suggest that share could be baught into the team to finance the new arena, etc. Everything you heard with the expos, just non sens.

Yes the building is outdated, but they might adress that by doing major renovations and improve it for concerts and just modernize the whole thing, not build a brand new one. And it's not because we'll get a new arena that all the big acts will play here, this is a totally different subject than the one we're talking about lol.

Code:
You mean miss boucher? I doubt its true for the population.
Sure, who wouldn't like a new hockey team? But who is ready to pay for it? that's another question. The media sure as hell is good in getting people pumped up for that. Funny thing is, they don't want a new hockey club, they want the nordiques back, just like old times. well it won't be like old times, like I told you before, just look at ticket prices...

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07-19-2006, 07:00 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Burnside_1 View Post
200m is a lot of money, I really doubt it could be financed by private funds only, especially for such a high risk. The first thing promoters will do is make promises to the population, make them dream (blindly) and then blame the town and the government for their lack of support. Just like Aubut did... There's no way that anyone is going to finance a brand new arena privately. And you'll also hear people suggest that share could be baught into the team to finance the new arena, etc. Everything you heard with the expos, just non sens.

Yes the building is outdated, but they might adress that by doing major renovations and improve it for concerts and just modernize the whole thing, not build a brand new one. And it's not because we'll get a new arena that all the big acts will play here, this is a totally different subject than the one we're talking about lol.

Code:
You mean miss boucher? I doubt its true for the population.
Sure, who wouldn't like a new hockey team? But who is ready to pay for it? that's another question. The media sure as hell is good in getting people pumped up for that. Funny thing is, they don't want a new hockey club, they want the nordiques back, just like old times. well it won't be like old times, like I told you before, just look at ticket prices...
Bah 1995 is 1995, 2006 is 2006. People do make a lot more money too per capita. Its been growing on top of the population growth of the city. If you remember well 1995 was the recession, were far from that today, next week, next year, next 5 years, because we are really not in the "trendy" money. Ive been in most NHL cities and my vision is not the rosy one of the media, its the one Ive talked and developped with people with a heck of a lot of money(they are my clients for my service). I think wheres the city is at atm, most want to wait still a couple of years to see if the upward trend continues. But saying never is what I'm against. I think in around 5 years well be ready economically and "parent" wise ready.

Im really against putting 1 cent in the actual coliseum because the foundation of the whole thing are worthless, renovation wont fix the size issue either. And that money would be public money.

Molson did it, I dont know why someone else wouldnt do it in Quebec City. They are currently talking about a 2nd complex G size building.(Cominar)

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07-19-2006, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Of course, when a very marketable group like the Black Eyes Peas will never play again here because our arena is among the worst they have seen. Anyone who have seen that show know what im talking about. It was 40+ inside, they had some sound system problem because of the sub standard power supply etc etc.
The groups dont want to come here because of the place and people dont want to go to shows because of the place.



Miss bouchée can say what she wants we need a new one, hockey or not. What we have is a relic from before 1900. Ok it was rebuilt etc, but its sub standard on every levels possible. If we can spend 25m on a new police station in Ste-foy, why cant we pay 200m for a new arena that actually foster some more economic growth? Doesnt mean the city needs to get involved either. Tanguay said that for his junior team and its comprehensible, he also said we would need a new one for an NHL team.



True, most sports are not an investment anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Bah 1995 is 1995, 2006 is 2006. People do make a lot more money too per capita. Its been growing on top of the population growth of the city. If you remember well 1995 was the recession, were far from that today, next week, next year, next 5 years, because we are really not in the "trendy" money. Ive been in most NHL cities and my vision is not the rosy one of the media, its the one Ive talked and developped with people with a heck of a lot of money(they are my clients for my service). I think wheres the city is at atm, most want to wait still a couple of years to see if the upward trend continues. But saying never is what I'm against. I think in around 5 years well be ready economically and "parent" wise ready.

Im really against putting 1 cent in the actual coliseum because the foundation of the whole thing are worthless, renovation wont fix the size issue either. And that money would be public money.

Molson did it, I dont know why someone else wouldnt do it in Quebec City. They are currently talking about a 2nd complex G size building.(Cominar)
Yes people might make slightly more money per capita, but house prices have gotten higher, so did gas prices, etc... No pun here, but your a little bit simplistic in your arguments...well it's the feeling I get from what I read from you at least.

I don't see the link with the building of a second complex G size building by private investors. By that I think you want to show that the city is growing, but there is no comparison between that and an arena.

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Old
07-19-2006, 07:20 PM
  #73
SOLR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnside_1 View Post
Yes people might make slightly more money per capita, but house prices have gotten higher, so did gas prices, etc... No pun here, but your a little bit simplistic in your arguments...well it's the feeling I get from what I read from you at least.

I don't see the link with the building of a second complex G size building by private investors. By that I think you want to show that the city is growing, but there is no comparison between that and an arena.
Its just an illustration of growth.
Higher houses prices, means people can pay them, again illustration of growth. If they can buy 300k house they can buy 10k season pass for the Nords.

Actually the building would be worth nearly as much as an Arena. (130-150m) If the towns approves the height, something I doubt.

Yes, Im the first to say Quebec is a very big village, but I think the spark is now here to transform ourself into a city, want it or not, its happening. The town is too productive for its current population, theres a realignment happening(between Quebec and Montreal). All the Quebec City native boomers coming back as retirees etc. 4 of my 5 expatriated to Montreal friends are now coming back etc.(For work)

Anyway, im done im saying too much lol My point is, with a rich parent and the correct steps, it could happen and it could work imo. The current CBA was Aubut's idea.

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Old
07-19-2006, 08:04 PM
  #74
Burnside_1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Its just an illustration of growth.
Higher houses prices, means people can pay them, again illustration of growth. If they can buy 300k house they can buy 10k season pass for the Nords.

Actually the building would be worth nearly as much as an Arena. (130-150m) If the towns approves the height, something I doubt.

Yes, Im the first to say Quebec is a very big village, but I think the spark is now here to transform ourself into a city, want it or not, its happening. The town is too productive for its current population, theres a realignment happening(between Quebec and Montreal). All the Quebec City native boomers coming back as retirees etc. 4 of my 5 expatriated to Montreal friends are now coming back etc.(For work)

Anyway, im done im saying too much lol My point is, with a rich parent and the correct steps, it could happen and it could work imo. The current CBA was Aubut's idea.
I understood it was illustrating growth, but the part in bold answers basically makes me want to stop discussion this with you lol.

Good for you friends, Qc is a nice town. But approx. nine out of ten people i'm going to school with who want some sort of carreer challenge/opportunity are moving to MTL, some by choice because they're sick of the village, but many others simply because they don't have the choice...

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Old
07-19-2006, 08:17 PM
  #75
beowulf
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I don't know where you are getting a fan base of 2M plus but according to this http://www.citymayors.com/gratis/canadian_cities.html site Quebec and Winnipeg are almost exactly the same size and are far smaller the Ottawa.

Also Quebec City is far from a rich city. In fact according to Revenue Canada, the average income in 2001 was 26,531$, Ottawa on the other hand is over 40,000$ and Winnipeg was at 30,160$. You can find that info half way down this page http://www.city.welland.on.ca/EDC/profile/eIncome.pdf

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