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Ovechkin: would it work in Montreal?

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Old
03-01-2013, 12:24 AM
  #126
DAChampion
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Yes! It would make the Habs a powerhouse overnight. If fans miss having Cole as the RW power forward with 35 goals, think of what Ovechkin could do in comparison. The problem is, how would the Habs pry him away from the Caps without ceding the family farm in return.
Ovechkin Has a 9.54 million dollar contract through 2021 (he will then be 35), but he plays like a 5.54 million dollar player in the Washington failshow.

He should not cost "the family farm".

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03-01-2013, 12:41 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Ovechkin Has a 9.54 million dollar contract through 2021 (he will then be 35), but he plays like a 5.54 million dollar player in the Washington failshow.

He should not cost "the family farm".
More probable then a team offering a 2nd for Ovi and his contract

WSH won't trade him just for cap reasons, just like most teams won't trade the farm for him. unless you get WSH being desperate and get lucky in a trade, or team that's very deep.


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Old
03-01-2013, 12:46 AM
  #128
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More probable then a team offering a 2nd for Ovi and his contract
How much did the Capitals get for Jaromir Jagr?

Owned :-)

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Old
03-01-2013, 12:52 AM
  #129
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How much did the Capitals get for Jaromir Jagr?

Owned :-)
yes because jagr traded in his 15th season is comparable to Ovi's case .... nice try

you know if Ovi is on the trading block he'll fetch a good return, your just fixated on cap management and looking at his short term production, ignoring the externalities that have much influence over his production which coincide with bad transition in hockey philosophy that is currently happening in WSH and also coincide with a huge abnormality in his production, if you take his prior successful seasons into the whole perspective. Something scouts and GMs accross the league are probably aware off given the time to evaluate a potential trade.


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03-01-2013, 01:12 AM
  #130
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yes because jagr traded in his 15th season is comparable to Ovi's case .... nice try

you know if Ovi is on the trading block he'll fetch a good return, your just fixated on cap management and looking at his short term production, ignoring the externalities that have much influence over his production which coincide with bad transition in hockey philosophy that is currently happening in WSH and also coincide with a huge abnormality in his production, if you take his prior successful seasons into the whole perspective. Something scouts and GMs accross the league are probably aware off given the time to evaluate a potential trade.
Washington is effective at trashing the reputation of Russian players.

Look at how Semin was undervalued this summer.

GMs did not want him for free.

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03-01-2013, 01:21 AM
  #131
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Washington is effective at trashing the reputation of Russian players.

Look at how Semin was undervalued this summer.

GMs did not want him for free.
dunno how much trashing they do, but to me its just case of WSH having sub par management, in terms of icing a competitive team.

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03-01-2013, 01:35 AM
  #132
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Still he would be the best scorer the Habs had since Richer.

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03-01-2013, 01:55 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
i'm not surprised hunter left because of what a mess that org is. Still don't see how you read that (i'm referring to your quote since i haven't seen/heard this discussion you are referring to) as Ovi being "the mess ***** that was going on there "

He might be partially responsible for some of the failures there, but defiantly not his fault the GM hasn't been able to properly manage the team into it's new "system", or his fault for the management and coaching prior to rely and build a system solely dependent on high offensive game play, and overly depending on few key players. Juggle starting goaltenders year in year out.

That kind of talent and skill doesn't just disappear overnight (he's still producing and setting in nicely with ribero, seems to be best move wsh has done in a while). As much as it's the players responsibility to mature properly and work hard to develop properly, it's also the duty of management and coaching to facilitate and help develop and surround such talent and skill. Ovi is no lazy person; tons of energy and passion, handled properly, mixed with his skills is top 5 forward in this league.
just going by memory here, but the quote wasn't referring to ovi as the sole problem, just a big part of it

don't kid yourself, he doesn't always go there, but he does go into lazy mode way more than he should and he doesn't seem to have the best off-season regimen, so im fine calling him lazy. the talent is still there, but when i see him play now, i see no passion whatsoever...

he's not washed up, like you said, the passion and the talent is still there, somewhere, i assume. the just guy needs a change of scenery. badly

not directed at you personally, but there are still tons of people, mostly caps fans, who only look for excuses for ovechkin.

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it's also the duty of management and coaching to facilitate and help develop and surround such talent and skill.
see what i mean? he plays with backstrom as his center, occasionally had semin on the other wing, and has green/alzner/carlson on the backend. how much skill does he need to play with to get going exactly?

what DAchampion said, they need to deal him and start again.

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03-01-2013, 06:06 AM
  #134
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dunno how much trashing they do, but to me its just case of WSH having sub par management, in terms of icing a competitive team.
The fact of the matter is that only one GM in the entire league was interested in Semin, and he was barely interested. That is anomalous... it shows that Washington destroys the reputation of Russians.

Anyhow, let us look at two analogies to what it would cost to acquire Ovechkin: Jagr and Thornton.

Jaromir Jagr was not performing with Washington and had a massive cap hit. They traded him for a bag of pucks (Anson Carter), and on top of that they agreed to pay 4 million in annual salary. Jagr went on to a 123 point season, is still playing competitive hockey at a top-6 level 9 years later, and Washington went on to build a legitimate contender which they were not going to do with Jagr. A good trade for both teams. The equivalent here would be the Habs offering a 2nd round draft pick and taking on all the salary.

Joe Thornton was not performing well enough for the Bruins. They were sucking. So he was traded to San Jose for Sturm, Stuart, and something else. Bruins went on to use the cap space on Chara and Savard, they drafted Kessel and Hamill as they recovered from the loss, and went on to win a cup. San Jose relied on Thornton to be one of the greatest regular season teams of recent decades. Good trade for both teams. The equivalent here would be the Habs offering Diaz, Bourque, and Leblanc.

No, let's look at another kind of trade. The trade you have in mind when you say the Habs would need to sell the farm to get Ovechkin. Let's look at the Lecavalier trade to the Habs that never happened, because it is an instructive example in GM mechanics.

The Lightning had an underachieving high-talent player signed to a high salary for the next 10 years or so. The Habs wanted him. The rumoured trade was Lecavalier for Subban, Plekanec, Gorges, Higgins and three 1st rounders (I think 2009, 2011, and 2013). The trade discussions were so advanced that we all heard about it. One possibility is that the Lightning said no because they wanted more, in which case they are idiots. Another possibility is that Gainey said no, but barely, in which case the Lightning management are idiots for not halving their demands. In hindsight, Plekanec alone or Subban alone would be worth Lecavalier. If Lightning management had done that trade or close to it, they would be dominating the Eastern Conference.

I don't know (and neither do you) if Washington's management has the foresight and wisdom that the management of Boston and old Washington did. They can build a future contender around Kuznetsov, Green, Backstrom, Forsberg, Carlson, Alzner, a 2013 top-5 pick, and 9 million in cap space (that is 8 fantastic pieces), which they won't be able to do if they keep the elephant in the room, in the room, where he's not happy. In which case Ovechkin is available and the Habs should bid to reasonable limits. However, Washington's management might also be idiotic and demand Pacioretty, Eller, Subban, Tinordi, and a couple 1st rounders for Ovechkin. In which case Habs management has a simple solution: Just say "No" and move on.

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Old
03-01-2013, 06:21 AM
  #135
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There's a risk Ovechkin might turn out to be Gomez 2.0...
Might? He's already there, in a way. I've no idea what would motivate him - don't really care. His character is on display for all to see, and I want us to have no part of it.


Thankfully we have a GM with some smarts and common sense. In the past I'd be worried that these hair-brained forum ideas would come to pass, but MB wouldn't make a STUPID move like this.

I would rather us throw this whole season in the toilet and go after a top 2-3 pick in the upcoming draft, than have that overweight primadonna on my team.

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03-01-2013, 06:29 AM
  #136
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No way that I would want him and I don't think it would work as he would likely clash with Therrien.

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03-01-2013, 07:07 AM
  #137
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Based on wanting more hilarious drunken Russian pics with Markov, then I'd say yes!!

....But based on basic hockey logic, nope, never, don't do it, won't do it. I've been paying really close attention to the hockey the past 5 years, more so then ever (however habs fan since 85), and one thing that seems common among successful elite players is the dedication to the game and to get better year after year after year. Whether that's through rigorous gym routines in the offseason to get stronger and bigger or attending camps to work on specific skills, they continue to grow as athletes and adults. Malkin, Stamkos and Tavares are great examples. Stammer especially, he was a lanky kid when he got drafted, no doubt the skill was there but he just worked at it, tooled his game with strength, speed and skill.

For Ovechkin, he seems to have ignored this process, and continues to go the route which made him successful. That's fine, hes got 15 points in 19 GP, no slouch by any means. However, with a change of mindset, he could still be dominating. Harder on the puck, create a defensive game, read the play, and physicality is what he needs to work on. Not massive adjustments and they would complement his game. It's scary what he could be. But that's all ifs right now. Maybe he wants out of DC, or maybe he just doesn't want to change, we could all speculate, but unless he changes his game I don't want to see him in a habs uni.

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03-01-2013, 08:11 AM
  #138
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too seriously? TOO SERIOUSLY????

yeah a bit. im in one of those zones

milbury is dumb as a rock, but it doesn't make his point any less valid. mute the video is you like and pretend jesus christ himself is narrating. the video itself is damning enough. don't need his narration at all

the difference is backstrom tries. and i never brought up the russian thing, you did, he could be jupiterian for all i care. so let's not put words in my mouth shall we?

yes of course the new defensive system is partly responsible for his drop in production. kovalchuck adjusted, why can't he? and no way is the system responsible for him just floating around looking disinterested. it's a team sport and he's the captain.

and just to be absolutely clear: for a variety or reasons, from playstyle to effort level, from his great talent to his great cap hit; you couldn't pay me to take him on my canadiens. even though my rant may make it look that way, it's nothing personal

in that flyers game, can you imagine the reaction here and in the medias if that guy was playing for the canadiens and not the capitals? it would be hell, we've shipped off people for less before...
I'm not saying Milbury is wrong on Ovechkin playing like crap. I'm saying he's wrong by saying all those other things such as him needing to be embarrassed.

You kind of prove my point with Kovalchuk. Kovy got a ''lot'' of heat in Atlanta. His production didn't drop as much as Ovechkin's but he was labeled as an individual player who couldn't lead his team anywhere.
He left, signed with the Devils where he was a disappointment for the first year of his contract. He still isn't producing to the expectation of his contract imo, but he has been well integrated into the new team and filling his role. I don't think the Devils are playing the defensive style they once did, and certainly not the one Washington was trying to implement.

But the point about Kovalchuk is, he joined a team that had leadership in place. He wasn't the guy the whole team was build around. Sure, he's that major superstar that comes in, but the Devils had players that had been around for ages, Parise, Elias, Langenbrunner, Pandolfo, Brodeur, on top of the management group in place.
Nobody was gonna let Kovalchuk come in, be a puck hog, pout and play like crap.

That's my point with Ovechkin. They handled this kid absolutely wrong in Washington.
They made him into a huge rock star. Think Kovalchuk times 5 in Atlanta.
Now they're trying to rectify this but I don't think hiring a rookie coach was the smartest decision. The guy needs to have a change of scenery. Go somewhere with a strong leadership group. I mean, I doubt Ovy plays like crap if he's moved to Detroit. I doubt he'll take as much space on the team too. It won't be Ovechkin's team, just like it isn't Kovalchuk's team.

As for the Russian thing, I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about the media.

Whether or not he should come here, well, first off this really depends on what he would cost us in return. This guy is a huge talent, I don't think he lost his skills and desire to play. I think a change of scenery will do him wonders, like it did so many players before him.
I really don't like his contract, but that's Molson's problem, not mine. I wouldn't be so quick to turn away from having the chance to land such massive talent. The only hesitation is that we're starting to build something very nice here, so I'm not sure if the timing is right. But as I said, I still would have a hard time passing on if the price was right.


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Old
03-01-2013, 09:36 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The fact of the matter is that only one GM in the entire league was interested in Semin, and he was barely interested. That is anomalous... it shows that Washington destroys the reputation of Russians.

Anyhow, let us look at two analogies to what it would cost to acquire Ovechkin: Jagr and Thornton.

Jaromir Jagr was not performing with Washington and had a massive cap hit. They traded him for a bag of pucks (Anson Carter), and on top of that they agreed to pay 4 million in annual salary. Jagr went on to a 123 point season, is still playing competitive hockey at a top-6 level 9 years later, and Washington went on to build a legitimate contender which they were not going to do with Jagr. A good trade for both teams. The equivalent here would be the Habs offering a 2nd round draft pick and taking on all the salary.

Joe Thornton was not performing well enough for the Bruins. They were sucking. So he was traded to San Jose for Sturm, Stuart, and something else. Bruins went on to use the cap space on Chara and Savard, they drafted Kessel and Hamill as they recovered from the loss, and went on to win a cup. San Jose relied on Thornton to be one of the greatest regular season teams of recent decades. Good trade for both teams. The equivalent here would be the Habs offering Diaz, Bourque, and Leblanc.

No, let's look at another kind of trade. The trade you have in mind when you say the Habs would need to sell the farm to get Ovechkin. Let's look at the Lecavalier trade to the Habs that never happened, because it is an instructive example in GM mechanics.

The Lightning had an underachieving high-talent player signed to a high salary for the next 10 years or so. The Habs wanted him. The rumoured trade was Lecavalier for Subban, Plekanec, Gorges, Higgins and three 1st rounders (I think 2009, 2011, and 2013). The trade discussions were so advanced that we all heard about it. One possibility is that the Lightning said no because they wanted more, in which case they are idiots. Another possibility is that Gainey said no, but barely, in which case the Lightning management are idiots for not halving their demands. In hindsight, Plekanec alone or Subban alone would be worth Lecavalier. If Lightning management had done that trade or close to it, they would be dominating the Eastern Conference.

I don't know (and neither do you) if Washington's management has the foresight and wisdom that the management of Boston and old Washington did. They can build a future contender around Kuznetsov, Green, Backstrom, Forsberg, Carlson, Alzner, a 2013 top-5 pick, and 9 million in cap space (that is 8 fantastic pieces), which they won't be able to do if they keep the elephant in the room, in the room, where he's not happy. In which case Ovechkin is available and the Habs should bid to reasonable limits. However, Washington's management might also be idiotic and demand Pacioretty, Eller, Subban, Tinordi, and a couple 1st rounders for Ovechkin. In which case Habs management has a simple solution: Just say "No" and move on.
Wow, beautiful post.

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03-01-2013, 09:48 AM
  #140
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Wow, beautiful post.
I am William Rémi Maloney and I approve of this message.

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03-01-2013, 10:09 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The Lightning had an underachieving high-talent player signed to a high salary for the next 10 years or so. The Habs wanted him. The rumoured trade was Lecavalier for Subban, Plekanec, Gorges, Higgins and three 1st rounders (I think 2009, 2011, and 2013). The trade discussions were so advanced that we all heard about it. One possibility is that the Lightning said no because they wanted more, in which case they are idiots. Another possibility is that Gainey said no, but barely, in which case the Lightning management are idiots for not halving their demands. In hindsight, Plekanec alone or Subban alone would be worth Lecavalier. If Lightning management had done that trade or close to it, they would be dominating the Eastern Conference.

That's way off. It was more along the lines of Plekanec, Gorges, Higgins and the Habs 1st at the 2009 Draft. It would have gone through but the messy Lightning ownership duo (49% and 51%) + Gary Bettman insured that it didn't on draft weekend. There was talk that Subban was a holding point during the season. But definitely not all of those things.

Had it happened, the Habs don't trade Higgins and McDonagh for Gomez. When it didn't happen, Gainey panicked and made a move for a centre. Anyways, good post other than that.

So you end up with Lecavalier and McDonagh. Anyways, don't mean to hijack the thread. But Subban plus 3 firsts is crazy talk.

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03-01-2013, 10:41 AM
  #142
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The fact there has been 6 pages of discussion over this non issue is bizarre. Unless we want to go back into the wilderness this must not happen. Thankfully MT and MB are smart enough to know this.

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03-01-2013, 10:52 AM
  #143
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That's way off. It was more along the lines of Plekanec, Gorges, Higgins and the Habs 1st at the 2009 Draft. It would have gone through but the messy Lightning ownership duo (49% and 51%) + Gary Bettman insured that it didn't on draft weekend. There was talk that Subban was a holding point during the season. But definitely not all of those things.

Had it happened, the Habs don't trade Higgins and McDonagh for Gomez. When it didn't happen, Gainey panicked and made a move for a centre. Anyways, good post other than that.

So you end up with Lecavalier and McDonagh. Anyways, don't mean to hijack the thread. But Subban plus 3 firsts is crazy talk.
To quote Slim Pickins "Shoot, a fella could have a pretty weekend in Vegas with this stuff". After witnessing the last 15+ years of our trades, let alone player development and evaluation, I was actually surprised this did not happen.

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03-01-2013, 11:08 AM
  #144
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I'd take his contract if they expect nothing back... He's worth the risk.

I would not give up anything of value in return. Pure contract deal. The Caps can have Brian Gionta and Kaberle back to make the deal work.

I don't think the Caps are at that point yet though.

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03-01-2013, 11:13 AM
  #145
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If we could get him for a decent price, I'd do it in a heartbeat but I can't see Washington getting rid of him without a good return. I think he would feed off the energy in the Bell Centre very well. He may never return to his 50 goal seasons, but he'd be our best scorer.

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03-01-2013, 11:38 AM
  #146
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Saying that Ovechkin is turning into Gomez is absolutely hilarious.

Going from 60 goals to 38 is Gomez?

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03-01-2013, 01:13 PM
  #147
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Yzerman had 6 100+ pt seasons in a row, last being 1993. After that he never really broke 80 pts (maybe once?) we all know how washed up and useless he was after his "peak".

Not sure where everyones been the last 7 yrs but Ovi plays hard all the time (except this one game apparently...600 games going 120% :: 1 half assed game, I'll take those odds all day) did no one watch him last playoffs vs. rangers/boston or any of the 500 games before that?

With that said I'd love to have him but the asking price would be way too high.

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03-01-2013, 01:17 PM
  #148
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For those curious about if Ovechkin would ever be traded, starting July 1, 2014 Ovechkin can make a list of 10 teams each year he will not accept a trade to.

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03-01-2013, 01:24 PM
  #149
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I have always been a big Ovie fan, but I have not like the way he has shown up this year. The team isn't doing good, so he packs it in? I believe his team is doing worse because he doesn't care.

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03-01-2013, 01:28 PM
  #150
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I have always been a big Ovie fan, but I have not like the way he has shown up this year. The team isn't doing good, so he packs it in? I believe his team is doing worse because he doesn't care.
He had a had trick last week but he's packing it in?

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