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Old
03-01-2013, 09:28 AM
  #26
brianhatesu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Just noticed this one. I can't express how much I disagree with this assessment.
The truth hurts. Skill will beat hard work and effort every day of the week.

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03-01-2013, 09:34 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by brianhatesu View Post
The truth hurts. Skill will beat hard work and effort every day of the week.
I'm sorry, were you following the exchange? I'll assume, no as I'm not sure why you decided to share this grand generalization.

On a side note, me thinks you might need to scrub up on the definition of truth.

You've already been proven false simply by us having 5 wins. Clean up your statement, put more thought into it, and maybe there will be even the remotest basis for common ground and rational discussion.

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03-01-2013, 10:20 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by brianhatesu View Post
The truth hurts. Skill will beat hard work and effort every day of the week.
Which is why Nikita Filatov is currently one of the best players in the NHL

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03-01-2013, 11:21 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
We do lack a #1 defenseman on the ice right now. Mostly because he's injured and so can't be on the ice. As is the other guy who will likely be another #1D someday.

We have a starting goaltender. He's generally about average. He won't steal games for us - for that, you need an above-average or high quality starting goaltender.

We are legitimately devoid of top-line scoring talent, and the scoring-by-committee theory isn't working. Thankfully, we have the draft for that. The important thing is that the team is presumably aware of that, and they frankly don't care. They keep playing hard anyways.

That's a good environment to raise a talented hockey player or three in.
At first I read this and thought it was a big ol' class of Kool-Aide. But I agree with your feelings about our D-men, and the offense probably would have been better given a full training camp to build chemistry, and they are working hard.

I went out to NHL.com and did a quick review of the goaltending statistics. Both Mason and Bobrovsky rank at or below the median of the 74 goalies listed, in every statistical category.

That means they could defensibly be called "slightly below average." But when you realize it's a 30-team league, that could also be used to argue that our best goaltender probably would not be a starter anywhere else in the league.And I believe that second statement is the more accurate of the two.

I believe Bobrovsky can, and will, get better. I don't see any reason to believe Mason will. There is young goaltending talent in the system now (fingers-crossed) but they are, at best, a couple of seasons away.

So you're closer to the truth than I thought, which is encouraging.

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:23 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by TBJF View Post
I believe Bobrovsky can, and will, get better. I don't see any reason to believe Mason will.
This is prevailing wisdom. Is there any basis for it other than "We've seen Mason for however-many years and we're tired of his ****"?

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03-01-2013, 11:34 AM
  #31
KeithBWhittington
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
This is prevailing wisdom. Is there any basis for it other than "We've seen Mason for however-many years and we're tired of his ****"?
I'd like to know what everyone thinks his potential is from here on out. He hit a phantom ceiling in my mind and likely isn't ever sniffing those kinds of numbers again....

Would a bottom tier of the league tender that could start for 7-8 years before moving into the "career backup role", steadily, in the league be something worth keeping? I'd say no, and thats probably best case scenario for him, in my mind.

I don't think there's much he could do in the next twenty games or so that would advocate me resigning him, certainly not "qualifying" him, at least. There's something to be said when you've been openly booed at home games, and not just by an extremely small, drunken minority. I don't know how he could ever bounce back, fully, from that. My line of thinking here is, and not with extreme malice: "We've seen this show before".

Kid seems really distant, I've listened to his interviews, he's said the right things lately, usually, but I hear no passion or conviction in his words. I guess beggers can't be choosers at this point, unless the desire is great enough from the front office to really go out and tackle the goaltender position this offseason, which just ratcheted up the likelihood of happening with Howson out the door.

I'd be curious if others feel this way, or if it is just that Mason is hated because of the past few seasons, so they want him gone, or if they truly feel that he's been "broken" and isn't worth the salvagable whole here in Columbus.

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:34 AM
  #32
Viqsi
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
I don't know, your pitch didn't exactly sell that last part to me. We get to the same place, but we take radically different paths to get there.
That last line was more related to the last paragraph. You'll have to pardon me for potential lack of precision; I'm kind of posting while at work.

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Originally Posted by brianhatesu View Post
The truth hurts. Skill will beat hard work and effort every day of the week.
By and large, hard work and effort is always useful. Skill is necessary but can be much more easily rendered useless.

A hardworking guy with zero skill - say, a Jody Shelley - is still potentially useful as a representative example of the proper attitude to take. A highly talented guy who doesn't work well - say, a Nikita Filatov - is generally utterly valueless unless he's so overwhelmingly skilled that he manages to contribute anyways (see: Kovalev) and even then can sabotage a team by contributing a bad example.

Both are important pieces of the puzzle. Emphasizing effort over skill to a limited degree is justifiable, though. Emphasizing one to the exclusion of the other, though, is foolhardy.

* * *
Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
This is prevailing wisdom. Is there any basis for it other than "We've seen Mason for however-many years and we're tired of his ****"?
Speaking personally, I have not seen such and I am inclined to believe there pretty much isn't. Every time I ask I get "but he's sucked for three years! THREE YEARS!" and similar dodge replies.

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:44 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
I don't know, your pitch didn't exactly sell that last part to me. We get to the same place, but we take radically different paths to get there.
The fact is, you guys look EXACTLY like the Nashville Predators when they were making the playoffs right around the 7-8-9 area. BUT you are going to have the benefit of being able to draft your own version of Sid the Kid.

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:49 AM
  #34
KeithBWhittington
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Originally Posted by BigFatCat999 View Post
The fact is, you guys look EXACTLY like the Nashville Predators when they were making the playoffs right around the 7-8-9 area. BUT you are going to have the benefit of being able to draft your own version of Sid the Kid.
Lets hope we surround that "future Idiot-proof" commodity with the right pieces soon then....

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03-01-2013, 11:51 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianhatesu View Post
The truth hurts. Skill will beat hard work and effort every day of the week.
And 3 of last year's 4 conference finalists were: Phoenix, LAK, NJD. Lots of skill there....


Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
This is prevailing wisdom. Is there any basis for it other than "We've seen Mason for however-many years and we're tired of his ****"?
Mason has without a doubt played better this year and the team in front of him has reacted better. I think the real question is do we want to qualify him for the perceived high cost of him being an RFA?

I really see him testing UFA since I doubt we want to pay him what 3.5m (with the mandatory raise). The only ways I see us hanging onto him is if no one else will pay him over 1m to be a project/back-up or if we get him to arbitration and it comes down in our favor.

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03-01-2013, 11:58 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by BluejacketNut View Post
I want this team to win a stanley cup, not go through the motions and be competitive. Nash was always bashed for his +/- stats, he's +9 right now. Nash wasnt the problem, management who was unable to create a winning environment and put together an even semi decent team was the problem. It was stupid of ownership to let Howson trade Nash....as you can see, Davidson wasnt very impressed with him either

Maybe you prefer Denial isnt just a river in Egypt
Nash was neither THE problem, not THE solution.

If anything, I think Nash is a really #2 or #3 player on a championship contender. I know one thing, relying on Nash to carry this team on his back didn't work. He is not the Messiah.


If the Jackets had a goalie as good as Lundqvist, and a center as good as Richards, with a top pairing like Staal and Girardi then Nash would have been just fine. Perhaps trading him away will give the Jackets the chance to draft that kind of talent.


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Old
03-01-2013, 12:00 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by TaketheCannoli View Post
Nash was neither THE problem, not THE solution.

If anything, I think Nash is a really #2 or #3 player on a championship contender. I know one thing, relying on Nash to carry this team on his back didn't work. He is not the Messiah.


If the Jackets had a goalie as good as Lundqvist, and a center as good as Richards, with a top pairing like Stall and Girardi then Nash would have been just fine. Perhaps trading him away will give the Jackets the chance to draft that kind of talent.
With Nash's contract here and the team not winning, they certainly had no chance of signing away that type of talent.

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03-01-2013, 12:07 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
Lets hope we surround that "future Idiot-proof" commodity with the right pieces soon then....
I'm not sure. As a Preds fan I'm deeply thrilled that CBJ will be going east.

A) I finally will have a Eastern team I don't mind rooting for

B) You guys should be good if you draft the right pieces.

Also you almost had a gift wrapped player in ROR if Calgary was STUPID enough to put him on Waivers.

Draft MacK, Shinkaruk, RW. You have about 8 billion defensemen in your system, trade a couple to add to your RW depth, you are all set.

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03-01-2013, 12:45 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by BigFatCat999 View Post

Also you almost had a gift wrapped player in ROR if Calgary was STUPID enough to put him on Waivers.

Draft MacK, Shinkaruk, RW. You have about 8 billion defensemen in your system, trade a couple to add to your RW depth, you are all set.
Wait am I missing something? ROR-Ryan OReilly? Cgy never had him he's still on the Avs and they matched the offer.


Also completely agree about the Nashville and Mackinnon /Shinkaruk deal. Really any of Barkov Mackinnon Drouin and Shinkaruk. Barkov is a helluva playmaker with size and age on his side, Drouin thinks 4 moves ahead and has a way to always find the open man or back of the net, shinkaruk is a give'n'go master, and Mackinnon is the perfect blend of all of them.

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Old
03-01-2013, 12:47 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by slightlystewpid420 View Post
Wait am I missing something? ROR-Ryan OReilly? Cgy never had him he's still on the Avs and they matched the offer.
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2013/..._ryan_oreilly/

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03-01-2013, 01:08 PM
  #41
slightlystewpid420
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
DAAAAAAAAAMN. That would have been huge for the club..

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03-01-2013, 01:16 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by slightlystewpid420 View Post
DAAAAAAAAAMN. That would have been huge for the club..
The last time we brought in a player who didn't want to be here, it work out decently (JJ + #1 pick, after a few toturous months of lackadasical play). Not so sure we could expect a repeat, though.

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03-01-2013, 01:27 PM
  #43
slightlystewpid420
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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
The last time we brought in a player who didn't want to be here, it work out decently (JJ + #1 pick, after a few toturous months of lackadasical play). Not so sure we could expect a repeat, though.
How do you know he wouldn't wanna be here. We have to the potential to bring another franchise player on top of him. Plus we have 2 other picks. Anythings possible. One talk with JD and JK and his mind could have changed

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03-01-2013, 01:49 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by slightlystewpid420 View Post
DAAAAAAAAAMN. That would have been huge for the club..
came on your board to see if the CBJ would have taken him. Would have been a lot to pay out.

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03-02-2013, 09:57 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Just noticed this one. I can't express how much I disagree with this assessment.
Good to have disagreement.

I'm curious what exactly do you disagree with? That we're indisputably the worst team in the league this year? You think there are good odds that someone else, like the Florida Panthers, crashes and burns even worse than us? Or do you just generally feel like my sentiments are too harsh?

We have promising youth - well, hooray. Every team in the league has promising youth. If we're somewhat above the league median (and I don't follow youth prospects/AHL enough to know one way or the other) - well, we bloody well should be, having had as many abysmal seasons and high draft picks as we have.

After the debacle that was the handling of Jakub Voracek, I don't exactly get excited about promising youth. Maybe Ryan Johannson will also be a PPG player for the Flyers someday.

I recognize that I'm bitter. I felt like we had the makings of a contender around 2010, and saw that contender systematically blown to bits by Howson's personnel moves. The only thing that gives me hope is that he's gone and there's no more damage that he can do.

As for Nash, I think the most interesting stat of his first season with NYR is that he leads the team with a +9, and is in the top 30 in the NHL in the +/- category. Personally, I thought he was the exact kind of player I'd like to have captain a team. No hockey team is ever "carried on its back" by a single player - ever. This is a true team game.

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03-02-2013, 10:25 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by TBJF View Post
I went out to NHL.com and did a quick review of the goaltending statistics. Both Mason and Bobrovsky rank at or below the median of the 74 goalies listed, in every statistical category.
In fact, they both place significantly below Matthieu Garon, whom no one has ever called an "average starting NHL goalie". Granted, the Jackets defense is very poor (despite it being the strongest unit on the team). Worse than Tampa Bay's? Probably - I don't know.

Why should we expect them to improve? Tukka Rask and Carey Price are both 25, and Mason and Bobrovsky are 24. Maybe they'll improve, and maybe they won't.

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03-02-2013, 10:54 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by hedba View Post
I like to think that this team will go really far in playoffs in coming years, is that just me having that feeling?... with Dubinsky as captain and most youngsters developing good.

I've been a "fan" of several teams cause of swedish players, but i've always somehow liked the Jackets for no reason, even if they didn't have any swedish players. This is why i'm getting so excited for coming season with this young squad!

Dont kill my hopes and dreams guys, i know it looks bad now but be positive

I've also never liked Nash, he's a good player but never liked his attitude for some reason. with him gone im happier than ever cause my fav player Dubinsky got here!

Cheers
Possible, but in the end it's not the players we see today but the organization that builds the future... Most fans focus on snapshots of the team roster on any given day; professionals focus on the future organization trend, tendancy and history....

We will see.

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Old
03-03-2013, 10:53 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
I think we have some parts of a foundation but I'm not so sure that we are very far along to becoming a real good team.
What bothers me is that we have no guys that are really impressive and who appear to be definite stars in the future.
And we have a lot of redundancy. Too many 3rd & 4th line types with only a few proven top line forwards. Dubi and Anisimov qualify but they aren't exactly the first guys that come to mind when listing top 6 forwards throughout the league.
Our goalies aren't very good.
Defense is supposedly the strength but we have no real physical shutdown types. Lots of puck moving alleged offensive defenseman. Murray if Sore Loser is right could be our future star. The rest of the D guys are serviceable and better than any collection we have ever had.
What is encouraging is that the effort level has increased 100% and if it stays high will give us a base to build from.
The ifs include:
Will CAM be a Martin St Louis type player? No, MSL is a special player, Atkinson is an above average 2nd liner with a knack for scoring.

Will Jenner be the long term answer to a 3rd line center that plays good D and can score some? All signs point to yes, skillsket, mindset, and statistics are all there for him.

Joey lives up to hype? Or at least comes close. Again he has all the tools needed to live up to the hype, does he eventually get that mindset and will himself into becoming that player? To be determined

Will Umbie ever become a 25g - 50 pt forward again? No, nope, not going to happen. maybe 20g - 40pt player one more time...

Will Brassard ever fulfill part of his 6th pick expectation? No. He is worth a 2nd rounder and maybe a 3rd. He is seen as an average 2nd line center around the league im sure.

Will JK & JD have some draft success? Yes

How long will it take to develop some offense? 2 years

Will a full training camp enable all the new guys to mesh? 100% yes


I guess i don't see this team as being close to being a contender but I do see them as being a lot better than last year although without a hot streak somewhere along the line they project out worse than last year.
Im going to try and answer these questions based purely on my own opinion and what I've read/seen this year. (note I am an eternal optimist)

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03-03-2013, 11:08 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
This is prevailing wisdom. Is there any basis for it other than "We've seen Mason for however-many years and we're tired of his ****"?
Let me understand this: You're saying the evidence of his career to this point is not enough to outweigh the wishful thinking that he's going to magically blossom into Patrick Roy because the fans really, really want him to?

You're projecting a leopard to change his spots and demanding to know why everybody considers it unlikely?

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03-03-2013, 12:42 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by TBJF View Post
Let me understand this: You're saying the evidence of his career to this point is not enough to outweigh the wishful thinking that he's going to magically blossom into Patrick Roy because the fans really, really want him to?

You're projecting a leopard to change his spots and demanding to know why everybody considers it unlikely?
or... allowing for the development of a young kid thrust too early into a starter's role and wondering why there's a consensus that "the ship has sailed".

I'm pretty skeptical that Mason has a future here, or that he's actually going to become a legit #1. Consistency is a nagging problem for him. But I know he reported in terrific shape, a new development for him, and that I believe my eyes in the difference in his game between last year and this. He is playing "big" and he's composed, and he doesn't seem as forlorn as giving up goals as he used to. I wonder how much pressure Arniel was putting on him, and if Richards is showing more of a soft touch.

Either way, for me, Mason's performance is leaving doors open that I thought were closing.

I said doors, not nets

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