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The Defenseman Acquisition Thread | Part I: Creating a Defense that is "no Soff"

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Old
03-01-2013, 10:59 AM
  #26
Captain Hook
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Originally Posted by Luigi Lemieux View Post
The personnel is just okay. For a contending team it should definitely be upgraded. I agree the system makes our team defense look horrific, but system or not our dmen get manhandled along the boards physically. I'm fully on board with trading Niskanen while his value is still relatively high.
Agreed.

I think we have some solid talent defensively but the mix is bad. I don't think Niskanen is a good partner for Letang and I don't think either of Bortuzzo or Despres have been as good with Engelland as Niskanen was last year. Two D pairs are worse because of that.

I think Shero needs to upgrade Letang's D partner. I'd say that's possibly an even a bigger priority than a winger since I think this team will score a lot of goals as long as 87 and 71 are healthy.

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03-01-2013, 11:00 AM
  #27
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Yeah that's fine, but when 2 goals are scored from the high slot, that's the forwards responsibility as well. So it's a system issue or guys just not picking up a man.
Well, that's a coaching issue then . . .

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Agreed.

I think we have some solid talent defensively but the mix is bad. I don't think Niskanen is a good partner for Letang and I don't think either of Bortuzzo or Despres have been as good with Engelland as Niskanen was last year. Two D pairs are worse because of that.

I think Shero needs to upgrade Letang's D partner. I'd say that's possibly an even a bigger priority than a winger since I think this team will score a lot of goals as long as 87 and 71 are healthy.
Getting 87 and 71 more help is the most pressing issue, no matter who the coach is. How pressing it is to get Letang a new partner is, IMO, a question of who the coach is.

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03-01-2013, 11:01 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Exhibits A-D:





Exhibit E:



Conclushun: We need better D.


Ready.... DISCUSS! (And yinz keep it clean.)

This game has nothing to do with being soft or "soff" or not.

No one was on a man period. It wasn't like a D got man handled in front of the net and got scored on.
(I'm going by the pictures here.)

Also just for the record, that last goal shouldn't have counted, should had been a penalty on E. Staal for tripping Martin.

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:02 AM
  #29
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Okay so let's break down the defensive zone system here. In general, there seems to be a lack of attention given when guys are hanging out in our slot. When I played growing up and a guy was in the slot you knocked him around or at least tied up his stick. What is it about our system that let's guys stand in front of the net/get open in the slot with regularity?

What I see is that we have guys in the right areas generally (except when we have 2 d behind the net standing right next to each other which drives me insane) but just don't have their head on a swivel and aren't picking up guys. I see we all ***** about the system, but can someone articulate for me what is flawed in the system and how it should be fixed (I'm a pretty knowledgeable X and O's guy but I haven't been able to watch many games this year to really dig into it)?

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:15 AM
  #30
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I'd like to see Niskanen with Engo/Bort. Promote Despres with Letang. And possibly move Brooks for our winger and bring in a vet at the deadline to play with Martin on our shutdown pair.

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:17 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
I'd like to see Niskanen with Engo/Bort. Promote Despres with Letang. And possibly move Brooks for our winger and bring in a vet at the deadline to play with Martin on our shutdown pair.
None of that will happen. But, what you propose is better than what will happen.

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:26 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
None of that will happen. But, what you propose is better than what will happen.
Kunitz-Sid-Neal
Bennett-Malkin-Kulemin
Cooke-Sutter-Dupuis
Glass-Vitale-Adams
Boychuk


Despres-Letang
Regehr-Martin
Nisky-Engelland
Bortuzzo
Eaton

I'd take that lineup over the Cup team. Right mix of players. No excuses to underachieve with that.

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:38 AM
  #33
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Does anyone know the details of Orpiks modified ntc?

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:39 AM
  #34
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Does anyone know the details of Orpiks modified ntc?
Can list 8 teams he doesn't want to be traded to.

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:40 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by bradshaw06 View Post
Does anyone know the details of Orpiks modified ntc?
http://www.capgeek.com/player/489
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NTC (can list up to eight teams he will not accept a trade to)
So Orpik can blacklist up to 8 teams, giving GMRS at least 21 trade options.

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:49 AM
  #36
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Is it possible that a defense built around PMD instead of defensive defensemen could be a little light on the defensive side of things? Who knew?

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:51 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by wolffy66 View Post
Is it possible that a defense built around PMD instead of defensive defensemen could be a little light on the defensive side of things? Who knew?
Which brings us back to the system argument. Bylsma system calls for PMDs to be most effective.

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:57 AM
  #38
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These aren't really pictures of the defensemen screwing up, per se.

In most cases all the players in the middle are trying to get their sticks in a passing lane to create a turnover instead of just eliminating a man to stop him from being able to get a scoring chance (which is something I personally prefer). I think this is what Rierden and Bylsma want them doing (sticks in lanes, stick on puck). Problem with this approach is: skilled players like Alex Semin can thread that needle leaving the open guy alone with a clean look on the goalie from the high slot.

Doesn't matter if there were a Bobby Orr-Ray Bouque pairing on the ice, I think all four of these would still have gone in if they were given the objective our D is given. And on the last one, Martin was on his way to probably pokecheck Tlusty(?), but he was tripped.

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Old
03-01-2013, 12:02 PM
  #39
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Yeah I would put Despres in the top 4. To me he is the ideal D partner for Letang.

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Old
03-01-2013, 12:05 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
These aren't really pictures of the defensemen screwing up, per se.

In most cases all the players in the middle are trying to get their sticks in a passing lane to create a turnover instead of just eliminating a man to stop him from being able to get a scoring chance (which is something I personally prefer). I think this is what Rierden and Bylsma want them doing (sticks in lanes, stick on puck). Problem with this approach is: skilled players like Alex Semin can thread that needle leaving the open guy alone with a clean look on the goalie from the high slot.

Doesn't matter if there were a Bobby Orr-Ray Bouque pairing on the ice, I think all four of these would still have gone in if they were given the objective our D is given. And on the last one, Martin was on his way to probably pokecheck Tlusty(?), but he was tripped.
Yep this seems right and that's where the issue lies. The d zone is more focused on eliminating passing lanes instead of picking up a man. Thanks for points that out.

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Old
03-01-2013, 12:07 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Yeah I would put Despres in the top 4. To me he is the ideal D partner for Letang.
It would force Letang to settle the **** down. Cover up for a rookie's mistakes and play a mentoring role. Obviously, Despres adds size to the pairing as well.

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Old
03-01-2013, 12:12 PM
  #42
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I would like RS to move Orpik in a deal to get offensive depth.
After this is done, we could swing a deal for a cheaper defensive shutdown rental until Dumoulin or Harrington can become the new Orpik next year. Probably seems Dumoulin is more ready at this point.

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Old
03-01-2013, 12:12 PM
  #43
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I posted this in the winger thread, but maybe it should go here.

Orpik for Kulemin and Holzer.

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Old
03-01-2013, 12:17 PM
  #44
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I agree with everyone who is saying put despres with letang. Letang has played his best hockey this year with despres I dunno y maybe its the french canadian bond they share. Our def could def use another top 4 guy but their so hard to trade for nobody wants to give those guys up and they cost allot as free agents. This is why i love shero drafting all these def hardest thing to get in NHL is #1 center and top 4 def we shouldn't have any problem in a couple years with those positions after our young def are ready to come up.

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Old
03-01-2013, 12:19 PM
  #45
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You guys are overreacting about Orpik, he's not the reason we are failing and getting rid of him certainly will not make this defense better.

The guy has been in the Penguins organization for 13 years, the longest active Penguin out of anyone on the team. He always talks about loyalty for a team that gives you your chance. He took paycuts to stay here, he's the alternate captain and I think he's our leader on D.

So what, we should just scrap him and bring in a cheap defenseman and expect to make a Cup run with that? Get real.

Geez, the idea that getting rid of Orpik makes our defense better...

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Old
03-01-2013, 12:21 PM
  #46
mpp9
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
You guys are overreacting about Orpik, he's not the reason we are failing and getting rid of him certainly will not make this defense better.

The guy has been in the Penguins organization for 13 years, the longest active Penguin out of anyone on the team. He always talks about loyalty for a team that gives you your chance. He took paycuts to stay here, he's the alternate captain and I think he's our leader on D.

So what, we should just scrap him and bring in a cheap defenseman and expect to make a Cup run with that? Get real.

Geez, the idea that getting rid of Orpik makes our defense better...
He's not bringing anything that a rental vet D couldn't. If he's the difference maker in getting Sid/Geno proper talent, it's a no brainer.

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Old
03-01-2013, 12:25 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Okay so let's break down the defensive zone system here. In general, there seems to be a lack of attention given when guys are hanging out in our slot. When I played growing up and a guy was in the slot you knocked him around or at least tied up his stick. What is it about our system that let's guys stand in front of the net/get open in the slot with regularity?

What I see is that we have guys in the right areas generally (except when we have 2 d behind the net standing right next to each other which drives me insane) but just don't have their head on a swivel and aren't picking up guys. I see we all ***** about the system, but can someone articulate for me what is flawed in the system and how it should be fixed (I'm a pretty knowledgeable X and O's guy but I haven't been able to watch many games this year to really dig into it)?
Last night it was brutally obvious to me that our centers, and crosby in particular, were not handling any responsibility when the puck was near the goal line. How Sid got a plus from anyone in the thread (in no way meaning to be offensive to the posters) boggled my mind. There was a shot of Martin on hands and knees looking at the unit with pure "WTF are you/we doing".

I think Coles analysis is correct. I hate to speak for him ever, but he has for the past 3 years, harped on zone D. We see all to often that guys are covering the right "zone" but there are soft spots in a zone - and with the pens they tend to be in prime scoring locations (front of the net). Players in the NHL are too talented to be hindered by the zone system we play. I say "we" because i could imagine a zone system working well....if when there is one player in your assigned "zone" you check said player tightly. Our zone seems very rigid and more focused on limiting angles than limiting a players ability to effectively play the puck.

This also makes us seem "soff" because players are often in prime scoring areas free of tight checking or needing to battle. It also gives them the advantage in establishing position for rebounds.

So for my d priorities:
- better center support, no system or players will be effective absent this
- Tighter checking in high traffic areas. Could be through adjustments in zone approach, or playing man d.
- Play the bigger bodies over Nisky. (granted bortuzzo had a game to forget, but he battled hard and plays the brand of hockey we need come playoffs) I would also get Despres in there more, and tell him he needs to play harder nosed hockey. He has the size and strength to do it.

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Old
03-01-2013, 12:26 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
He's not bringing anything that a rental vet D couldn't. If he's the difference maker in getting Sid/Geno proper talent, it's a no brainer.
Skating ability? Leadership?

I am willing to bet that any rental vet D available couldn't skate or pass as good as Orpik.

Please just ask yourselves this question, we are a team that wants to win a Cup, is trading an alternate captain/leader in the locker room mid season sound realistic? I want to hear your opinions because it sounds ridiculous to me.

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Old
03-01-2013, 12:29 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
I posted this in the winger thread, but maybe it should go here.

Orpik for Kulemin and Holzer.
Orpik hasn't played great lately but hes one of our team leaders he means allot more to the team then what he shows on the ice just like adams. Plus we really shouldn't be trading any of our def unless we are getting an upgrade in def in return. We lost last year because we couldn't keep the puck out of our net and this year were 3rd in goals and 17th in def I think its kinda obvious we need to figure out a way to get better at def. They shouldn't be trading def for offense unless its def prospects.

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Old
03-01-2013, 12:33 PM
  #50
Jacques G
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Skating ability? Leadership?

I am willing to bet that any rental vet D available couldn't skate or pass as good as Orpik.

Please just ask yourselves this question, we are a team that wants to win a Cup, is trading an alternate captain/leader in the locker room mid season sound realistic? I want to hear your opinions because it sounds ridiculous to me.
The team wants to win a Cup every year. By your logic there is never a good time to trade him (which there isn't), so why not now? There are other leaders on this team who are effective in their gameplay.

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