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Phoenix LXXII: Send in the Clowns

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Old
03-01-2013, 07:54 AM
  #601
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
True enough, yet under astute ownership, can be accomplished. Heres a list of Carolinas' most recent investors along with a timeline & list on others.

Announced 11/3/2011:
Unidentified Investor
Unidentified Investor

Announced 9/12/12:
Unidentified Investor
Unidentified Investor

Announced 2/28/2013:
Unidentified Investor
Unidentified Investor

*Based in North Carolina
Explains why Bates and Anthony Battaglia are on the Amazing Race...

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03-01-2013, 08:06 AM
  #602
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Originally Posted by goyotes View Post
The team is gone at the end of the year, most likely to Seattle based upon new conferences. I will feel bad for QC if that happens.
I'm not convinced for some reason. The NHL has shown some conviction over the past four years.

Maybe they think they can make a go of it with improved on-ice performance and a city council and administration that's relatively competent. Who knows really, but I'm not totally convinced. The only reason Atlanta moved was because they were literally homeless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
You cant really make the comparison they are making. It's like comparing attendance in baseball in July to attendance in April.

If they want to compare apples to apples they need to compare the first 10 games played from January 15, 2012 to the first 10 games played from January 15, 2013. You cannot compare the attendance especially since in October baseball and football are still going on along with basketball where in January the only competition is basketball. Also the weather is nicer and more amenable to outdoor activities.
Agreed on the attendance, but the TV viewership is up as well. Perhaps of course that's seasonal as well.

edit: Yup, attendance for the ten games following Jan 15, 2012 was 12,885, so this year's attendance is an increase of 2% over last year.

1Jan 16 '12COLORADO12,757
2Jan 19 '12DETROIT15,067
3Jan 21 '12TAMPA BAY12,714
4Jan 24 '12OTTAWA8,061
5Jan 31 '12ANAHEIM10,579
6Feb 04 '12SAN JOSE12,979
7Feb 06 '12DETROIT12,687
8Feb 09 '12CALGARY10,048
9Feb 11 '12CHICAGO17,353
10Feb 18 '12DALLAS16,604

http://www.nhl.com/ice/gamestats.htm....teamName&pg=2

At least the freebies are down though!

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Originally Posted by objectiveposter View Post
what I find strange is that the cost of the team has remained constant at 170 mill for years now. I have a hard time believing that the revenues brought in after year 1 (plus the subsidies) covered losses to the penny. With the fluctuation of revenues (from deep playoff run last year) , interest, legal fees how is it that the purchase price has remained exactly 170 mill? Even this season...the team will undoubtedly lose some money...lets say 10 mill on the safe side.... is the league going to add that to the cost of the team? or just eat the losses?

If its true that Gary Bettman promised the owners he would get their money back then how is it that after 4 years the losses remain exactly 170 mill total? If the speculation is false and Bettman made no such promise than I dont see why the league cant lower the price to at least 140 mill.
Right, but there's really been no confirmation that $170 million is actually the price. The agreement between Jamison and the NHL was never made public.

If the price is $170 mm then it does represent a haircut taken by the league on prince. Perhaps they want to limit their loss to $30 mm to $50 mm rather than well over $100 mm, as sale at FMV would imply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
True enough, yet under astute ownership, can be accomplished. Heres a list of Carolinas' most recent investors along with a timeline & list on others.
That's not change of ownership is it? Just new investors diluting the equity to all hell?


Last edited by OthmarAmmann: 03-01-2013 at 08:14 AM. Reason: added attendance figures
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Old
03-01-2013, 09:23 AM
  #603
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I'm not convinced for some reason.... That's not change of ownership is it? Just new investors diluting the equity to all hell?
... Nor am I (convinced) and no, no change in that regard, and yes, obviously dilution however it is a model not without precedent (Calgary for example) in several sports. Interesting that so many are "unidentified". I was under the impression public disclosure was required. This seems a new wrinkle. Maybe theres a minimum threshold or level at which one can invest in a franchise, vetted by the NHL privately while publicly retaining ones anonymity? If so, leads me to believe there may well have been good reason why Jamison refused to name his investors. Maybe he'd lined up dozens. Boiler room operation set-up outta the Iggy Pop Trailer Park in Schenectady. Dialling for dollars, blowing out Units.... you know, as in ring ring, "hi TL, Greg here from Jamison Worldwide Sports & Entertainment.... whats that?........ how did I get this number?.... take you off my call list?..... fine fine.... I'll also take you off my list of successful people today".....

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03-01-2013, 09:36 AM
  #604
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Paul Giblin ‏@PaulGiblinAriz

Now #Glendale's Weiers is auctioning #Coyotes loot to benefit the Chamber of Commerce. Weiers is working the room. $1,000 takes it.

Can #Glendale's Weiers auction the #Coyotes team the same way?

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03-01-2013, 09:43 AM
  #605
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^^^ The Chamber of Commerce has an annual fundraiser, the Coyotes & jobing.com sponsors.

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03-01-2013, 09:49 AM
  #606
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
True enough, yet under astute ownership, can be accomplished. Heres a list of Carolinas' most recent investors along with a timeline & list on others.

Announced 11/3/2011:
*Michael Kahn, Empire Distributors Inc. (also owner of Charlotte Checkers)
*Matthew Szulik, Red Hat
*Capitol Broadcasting Company
*Temple Sloan Jr., General Parts International, Trail Creek Investments, Highwoods Properties
*Clancy & Theys Construction
*Jim Rutherford
*Abel and Barbara Zalcberg, OFM, Inc.
*Frederick J. Whitney and Timothy M. Whitney, Whitney Wealth Management
Unidentified Investor
Unidentified Investor

Announced 9/12/12:
*Ron Francis
*Eliza Kraft Olander and Brian McHenry
*Ron de Lange, Tekelec
Unidentified Investor
Unidentified Investor

Announced 2/28/2013:
*Mark Rein, Epic Games
Chuck Hammel, Pitt Ohio
Unidentified Investor
Unidentified Investor

*Based in North Carolina
It's funny how the NHL Constitution is a moving target and can be changed by the whim of the Commissioner depending upon how the wind is blowing and his personal desire to see his dreams come to fruition.

Not to bring up old history, but back in 1994-95, there was a "group" that was trying to buy and keep the Jets in Winnipeg, and basically they were told the NHL does not want / like "group" ownership. Fast forward to now, and it more than appears that the NHL keeps changing the definition of ownership and what constitutes a "group" to do whatever it takes to keep a team where it is.

I personally like this. I think regardless of the ownership being one person or a thousand, if it keeps a team from moving , great. I just have issue with the NHL running its business with a "casual" constitution. Why even waste the paper?

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03-01-2013, 10:11 AM
  #607
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Originally Posted by Thomas L View Post
Yup, attendance for the ten games following Jan 15, 2012 was 12,885, so this year's attendance is an increase of 2% over last year.
Of course. It's always junk science with this franchise because the actuals never fit the narrative.

Speaking of, I'm looking forward to a Y2Y comparison of Westgate revenues for Oct-Nov-Dec. Based on the narrative, city revenues should be down at least 40% because of the lockout. Glendale claims that tax receipts are processed twos months behind collection so the full data set will be available very soon. (Also, recall that Deputy Mgr Colstons presentation included Tanger, so no adjustment for the outlet mall is required) We'll see what the actuals show.

Anyone want to wager that the Deputy Managers projection that Westgate sales would decline by 40% without the Coyotes was accurate?

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03-01-2013, 10:15 AM
  #608
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I personally like this. I think regardless of the ownership being one person or a thousand, if it keeps a team from moving , great. I just have issue with the NHL running its business with a "casual" constitution. Why even waste the paper?
Yes I agree. Only prudent to be flexible when unable to secure a majority owner or perhaps 2, 3 or 4 minority stake holders, to open it up (due dilly required of course). The NHL's constitution and a goodly number of its By-Laws applied with an uneven hand. More a matter of either strict interpretation & adjudication, black & white as any given situation evolves, or a matter of "interpretation" delivered in shades of grey.

The case of MLSE's positioning over Territorial Rights. The Rangers in wanting to control its website & web based activities independently. Group ownership. The approval process in applying for ownership whereby it was reported that Matthew Hulsizer would be rubber stamped for Phoenix, yet falls short of the mark in Missouri? That Winnipegs' arena up until about a year before the leagues hand was forced was too small to accommodate an NHL franchise. Copps erroneously painted as being unsuitable altogether. The list is endless. Little wonder people accuse the league of hypocrisy. Bettman doesnt help matters much either, obfuscates, combative, borderline sometimes if not full-on belligerent when responding to perfectly reasonable questions about such matters.

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03-01-2013, 10:35 AM
  #609
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Yes I agree. Only prudent to be flexible when unable to secure a majority owner or perhaps 2, 3 or 4 minority stake holders, to open it up (due dilly required of course). The NHL's constitution and a goodly number of its By-Laws applied with an uneven hand. More a matter of either strict interpretation & adjudication, black & white as any given situation evolves, or a matter of "interpretation" delivered in shades of grey.

The case of MLSE's positioning over Territorial Rights. The Rangers in wanting to control its website & web based activities independently. Group ownership. The approval process in applying for ownership whereby it was reported that Matthew Hulsizer would be rubber stamped for Phoenix, yet falls short of the mark in Missouri? That Winnipegs' arena up until about a year before the leagues hand was forced was too small to accommodate an NHL franchise. Copps erroneously painted as being unsuitable altogether. The list is endless. Little wonder people accuse the league of hypocrisy. Bettman doesnt help matters much either, obfuscates, combative, borderline sometimes if not full-on belligerent when responding to perfectly reasonable questions about such matters.
Killion,

I totally agree with this analysis.

Concerning Bettman: He is a lawyer. He wants to have all the information and everyone else have none. It's not an insult to him, it's just the way lawyers tend to be and think.

Concerning everything else: I believe in the next 2 decades we will see a lot of things crashing in the NHL. As a league, they have always gone for the quick fix. So, an expansion team to Columbus because someone will pay the fee. Now, I have nothing against Columbus. However, if the team cries that they have to be in the East Conference to survive, it suggests that it might not have been the right place in the beginning. St Louis sells for a small amount, really, given that the team has been there 40+ years. Phoenix is a comedy of short-sighted errors. And, then, surprisingly, they endure a half-season lockout to get a new CBA, and the provisions in the new CBA with respect the Floor/Cap gap are such that we can all predict that they will have the same problems again in a few years. Toronto and Montreal and New York will grow revenue, the smaller market teams won't be able to keep up, they will have to spend to the floor and lose $$ doing it. It seems poor management.

With the slow economic recovery in the states, it seems logical to me that this parade can't continue. I am not sure what form it will take, but it looks like a lot of potential crumbling to me.

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03-01-2013, 10:45 AM
  #610
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Concerning Bettman: He is a lawyer. He wants to have all the information and everyone else have none. It's not an insult to him, it's just the way lawyers tend to be and think.
Not all of them . I associate with a few that don't subscribe to that. They tend to be more in the dealing-with-facts and not conjecture camp

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03-01-2013, 10:47 AM
  #611
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Killion,

I totally agree with this analysis.

Concerning Bettman: He is a lawyer. He wants to have all the information and everyone else have none. It's not an insult to him, it's just the way lawyers tend to be and think.

Concerning everything else: I believe in the next 2 decades we will see a lot of things crashing in the NHL. As a league, they have always gone for the quick fix. So, an expansion team to Columbus because someone will pay the fee. Now, I have nothing against Columbus. However, if the team cries that they have to be in the East Conference to survive, it suggests that it might not have been the right place in the beginning. St Louis sells for a small amount, really, given that the team has been there 40+ years. Phoenix is a comedy of short-sighted errors. And, then, surprisingly, they endure a half-season lockout to get a new CBA, and the provisions in the new CBA with respect the Floor/Cap gap are such that we can all predict that they will have the same problems again in a few years. Toronto and Montreal and New York will grow revenue, the smaller market teams won't be able to keep up, they will have to spend to the floor and lose $$ doing it. It seems poor management.

With the slow economic recovery in the states, it seems logical to me that this parade can't continue. I am not sure what form it will take, but it looks like a lot of potential crumbling to me.

OK, but, the league is making records revenues...

This is what the BOG is looking for, in the process of selling their franchises. Pro sports is not about operating franchise: its about buying em and selling em later with big profit$.

So they don't care a second about what's happening in 10, 15, 20 years.

Also, don't forget Bettman is well aware of how thirsty the canadian market is for his show. CBC, TSN etc will pay whatever he wants to have the "privilege" of broadcasting this rather dull show. He knows it and have total control on them, providing fresh cash flow from north to south.

Bettman could close TSN/RDS if he wants. Mini-putt tournaments and ping pong as major shows? Yeah right. BIRDIEEE!

Ask the former CBC president how Bettman negociates when time comes to renew TV deals.


Last edited by QcBlizzard: 03-01-2013 at 10:54 AM.
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03-01-2013, 10:56 AM
  #612
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Not all of them . I associate with a few that don't subscribe to that. They tend to be more in the dealing-with-facts and not conjecture camp
Thanks M4B, I agree. I did not want to paint all lawyers like that, so I used the word "tend." I should have done better.

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03-01-2013, 10:57 AM
  #613
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Thanks M4B, I agree. I did not want to paint all lawyers like that, so I used the word "tend." I should have done better.
Ever thought going into politics? ;-)

There was a old joke on George Bush sr, replying to a reporter after been elected:


-I did'nt say READ MY LIPS: NO NEW TAXES. I said READ MY LIPS: NO NEWS IN TEXAS.

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03-01-2013, 12:54 PM
  #614
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... the provisions in the new CBA with respect the Floor/Cap gap are such that we can all predict that they will have the same problems again in a few years. Toronto and Montreal and New York will grow revenue, the smaller market teams won't be able to keep up, they will have to spend to the floor and lose $$ doing it. It seems poor management.... looks like a lot of potential crumbling to me.
Ya, absolutely. Short term fixes for systemic problems. A lack of critical thought. Reactive as opposed to being proactive. Classic example being the previous CBA whereby they get their Cap, yet mind numbingly "forget" to limit term lengths on Contracts? Its one thing to cut Gary Bettman some slack as clearly he's not a terribly creative nor imaginative thinker, not a whole lot of "vision" there, thats just not what he is, paid to do. But when you do then look at legal & technical issues, some omissions, mistakes of a glaring nature. How he's consolidated & centralized power to his offices through the creation of various By-Laws since 1994 that he has sold to the BOG's, apparently trumping Constitutional issues, adjudication & judgements made at his leisure and discretion. Part brilliant absolutely, but crippling at the same time.

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OK, but, the league is making records revenues...
Sure, but making "record revenues" doesnt mean your making "record profits" as you know. Fine for the NHL to trot that line out, but its meaningless without context; as in "ok, then whats your net after gross"?. As these pronouncements are always made during the All Star Game whereby the NHL completely controls the medium & message, followup questions either not permitted, or God forbid any reporter has the temerity to ask that question, fluffed off, ridiculed, challenged, belittled. Same sort of pattern when asked about Phoenix, Quebec, Hamilton, Seattle etc...

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03-01-2013, 01:42 PM
  #615
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OK, but, the league is making records revenues...

This is what the BOG is looking for, in the process of selling their franchises. Pro sports is not about operating franchise: its about buying em and selling em later with big profit$.

So they don't care a second about what's happening in 10, 15, 20 years.
as far as I can tell, this is exactly the reason why otpp sold mlse.

i heard mark cuban on stern last week and he said that while others might value his nba mavericks in the 500M to 800M range, he would not even consider selling for anything less than a cool billion. of course, hubris is high in that equation, but it appears he sees it as an investment ... granted, one that comes with some pretty cool perks.

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03-01-2013, 02:02 PM
  #616
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as far as I can tell, this is exactly the reason why otpp sold mlse.

i heard mark cuban on stern last week and he said that while others might value his nba mavericks in the 500M to 800M range, he would not even consider selling for anything less than a cool billion. of course, hubris is high in that equation, but it appears he sees it as an investment ... granted, one that comes with some pretty cool perks.
LA Dodgers, bought 420M in 2004, recently sold 2MM, OK from bankrupcy but still, this is a huge increase.

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03-01-2013, 02:13 PM
  #617
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as far as I can tell, this is exactly the reason why otpp sold mlse.
Partially yes, though as I understand it another factor was that because MLSE was so obscenely profitable for OTPP, suggested by their squads of tax attorneys & investment advisors that they would be better off, keeping more in paying lower capital gains taxes through the divestiture of that asset with a more diversified blue chip portfolio in other jurisdictions. The timing was right as well of course, what with Bell/Rogers anxious to acquire the assets & content. Yepp. A marriage made in Hell, guaranteff'n tee'd to soon, yes, very soon, provide countless hours of entertainment here on hf & elsewhere Im sure. Talkin Mega Threads, major hit counts, ad rates goin through the roof. Might wanna sink some change into CraveMedia GS. Just a matter of time before she blows.

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03-01-2013, 02:20 PM
  #618
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Partially yes, though as I understand it another factor was that because MLSE was so obscenely profitable for OTPP, suggested by their squads of tax attorneys & investment advisors that they would be better off, keeping more in paying lower capital gains taxes through the divestiture of that asset with a more diversified blue chip portfolio in other jurisdictions. The timing was right as well of course, what with Bell/Rogers anxious to acquire the assets & content. Yepp. A marriage made in Hell, guaranteff'n tee'd to soon, yes, very soon, provide countless hours of entertainment here on hf & elsewhere Im sure. Talkin Mega Threads, major hit counts, ad rates goin through the roof. Might wanna sink some change into CraveMedia GS. Just a matter of time before she blows.
Probably..

Maybe they wanted to recapitalize after 2008 and retirements are probably up in Ontario's schools? Anyway, like you said, Rogers and Bell, a future love and hate relation? lol

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03-01-2013, 02:30 PM
  #619
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I picture the Coyotes limping thru another season in Glendale next year. No resolution remotely in sight. No move to QC up the sleeve based on realignment. No venue in Seattle. No owner in Kansas City, Houston, or for that matter in Glendale. With no other viable option in sight, I think the most likely option is the status quo until something better comes along. No, we aren't there yet! Two more weeks . . . months . . . or years ? ? ?

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03-01-2013, 02:36 PM
  #620
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Probably.. Anyway, like you said, Rogers and Bell, a future love and hate relation? lol
Count on it. Book your seat early. Only in Toronto. The Mahovlich Curse.

"Two weeks" to consummate a billion dollar plus nightmare in the making, four years and counting in Phoenix with various beyond ridiculous attempts at ending one. Really, someone should wake-up the eff' up huh? Like, hello? New York City? You even alive down there on the Avenue of the Americas' or what!? Zombies.

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03-01-2013, 02:48 PM
  #621
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I picture the Coyotes limping thru another season in Glendale next year. No resolution remotely in sight. No move to QC up the sleeve based on realignment. No venue in Seattle. No owner in Kansas City, Houston, or for that matter in Glendale. With no other viable option in sight, I think the most likely option is the status quo until something better comes along. No, we aren't there yet! Two more weeks . . . months . . . or years ? ? ?
There is always the Kenny Rogers option... " You gotta know when to fold'em..... "


And maybe not permanently even. Take a year off, figure things out. The thing about one more year is that someone has to pay the freight. Is that the CoG, the NHL, both... who knows, but losses are mounting ( or being added to the sale price ), making it financially more difficult the longer nothing happens.


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03-01-2013, 02:51 PM
  #622
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With no other viable option in sight, I think the most likely option is the status quo until something better comes along. No, we aren't there yet! Two more weeks . . . months . . . or years ? ? ?
Ya, as mentioned earlier by Thomas L etc, theres a wee small voice in the backa the head whispering away that "oh ya, you think this is over, the teams moving in the spring? Not so fast my fine feathered friend". New Mayor Weiers has just finished cleaning house, more heads likely to roll, centralizing & consolidating power. He could very well be setting himself as Knight Errant in his imaginings and remonstrations, minds eye, doing a deal with the NHL in agreeing to some form of Arena Management Fee for the 13/14 season, the disposition of that $20M in escrow, perfectly sound & reasonable logic applied in justifying such. Needs to get up to speed. Another year wont hurt considering whats on the line & so on & so forth. So yes Mork, could be old Jerry theres marking his Dance Card in an exclusive with the NHL, booked solid for the next 16 months. The mans over 50, a strange age, doin strange stuff, Don Quioxte complex, you just never know what some of these crazy old bastids might get up to.

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03-01-2013, 03:12 PM
  #623
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Ya, as mentioned earlier by Thomas L etc, theres a wee small voice in the backa the head whispering away that "oh ya, you think this is over, the teams moving in the spring? Not so fast my fine feathered friend". New Mayor Weiers has just finished cleaning house, more heads likely to roll, centralizing & consolidating power. He could very well be setting himself as Knight Errant in his imaginings and remonstrations, minds eye, doing a deal with the NHL in agreeing to some form of Arena Management Fee for the 13/14 season, the disposition of that $20M in escrow, perfectly sound & reasonable logic applied in justifying such. Needs to get up to speed. Another year wont hurt considering whats on the line & so on & so forth. So yes Mork, could be old Jerry theres marking his Dance Card in an exclusive with the NHL, booked solid for the next 16 months. The mans over 50, a strange age, doin strange stuff, Don Quioxte complex, you just never know what some of these crazy old bastids might get up to.
If this saga ends up going another year, I am formally suggesting one of the upcoming thread titles to be "And the Beat Goes On" (Love and Rockets version)

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03-01-2013, 03:27 PM
  #624
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Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
If this saga ends up going another year, I am formally suggesting one of the upcoming thread titles to be "And the Beat Goes On" (Love and Rockets version)
Dont think Ive heard that version TL... heres my favourite, Buddy Rich www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zblr8g3P7tw

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03-01-2013, 03:32 PM
  #625
mesamonster
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Originally Posted by Mork View Post
I picture the Coyotes limping thru another season in Glendale next year. No resolution remotely in sight. No move to QC up the sleeve based on realignment. No venue in Seattle. No owner in Kansas City, Houston, or for that matter in Glendale. With no other viable option in sight, I think the most likely option is the status quo until something better comes along. No, we aren't there yet! Two more weeks . . . months . . . or years ? ? ?
I suspect that staying is working its way up on the probability scale. Though the team will likely stay with another coach at the helm! Tippett, has not renewed, and regrettably he will need to make a longer term career decision. That decision will likely be coaching free agency and a doubling of his salary with another more stable organization!

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