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The Defenseman Acquisition Thread | Part I: Creating a Defense that is "no Soff"

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Old
03-01-2013, 01:33 PM
  #51
mpp9
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Skating ability? Leadership?

I am willing to bet that any rental vet D available couldn't skate or pass as good as Orpik.

Please just ask yourselves this question, we are a team that wants to win a Cup, is trading an alternate captain/leader in the locker room mid season sound realistic? I want to hear your opinions because it sounds ridiculous to me.
I'm not seeing alot of Orpik's leadership on the ice. He has god awful performances and talks **** on the rest of the team afterwards.

His days are numbered here. If dealing him is what separates us from getting Sid/Geno talented linemates, I'm down.

If we keep coming out flat like this, I'd deal him to shake that locker room up.

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Old
03-01-2013, 01:38 PM
  #52
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Been told on other boards that I'm an idiot criticizing Orpik because he "blocks infinite shots"

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Old
03-01-2013, 01:46 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by plaidchuck View Post
Been told on other boards that I'm an idiot criticizing Orpik because he "blocks infinite shots"
last time i looked he was #1 in the league and #2 was Michálek. whoopeedoo. he deserves all the criticism that's coming his way.

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Old
03-01-2013, 01:47 PM
  #54
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last time i looked he was #1 in the league and #2 was Michálek. whoopeedoo. he deserves all the criticism that's coming his way.
Should've perched his ass in the slot last game then.

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Old
03-01-2013, 01:50 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
I have been saying for two years it is the system. And defense is not only defensemen but forwards as well. If you turn the puck over with a blind drop pass to no one, or with a stretch pass that fails, creating an odd man break the other way, how is a bright and shiny new defenseman going to fix that?

We have a LOT of talent on this team defensively. Some of it fairly young, but talent none the less. We can make do with the players we have, but the system we have will not go far in the playoffs. Several of us have been screaming this for years now.
I agree with the bolded above.

IMO, our forwards make our defense look worse than they are. How many times do you see the late man score on the Pens because the forwards are too late to the party? How often do you see the Pens' forwards already leaving the zone, while the D still has the puck deep behind the goal line and three opposition forecheckers between them?

The forwards leaving the zone early and not giving the D any outlet options, a lot of that does seem to be Bylsma's "system". At least, I'd assume it is. Otherwise, why the hell hasn't he ripped the forwards a new one for leaving the zone so quickly? Even the forwards being lazy on the back check inevitably comes back to him, since it's his job to make sure they don't do that, and to sit them if they continue to be lazy on defense.

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03-01-2013, 01:52 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Funk311 View Post
Last night it was brutally obvious to me that our centers, and crosby in particular, were not handling any responsibility when the puck was near the goal line. How Sid got a plus from anyone in the thread (in no way meaning to be offensive to the posters) boggled my mind. There was a shot of Martin on hands and knees looking at the unit with pure "WTF are you/we doing".
Not sure I agree with this part. In fact, I'd say Sid is the only center that drops down low enough for my liking when the other team's working in the corners below the goal line (I have seen Vitale do this, but I don't focus on him as much, so I can't say how often he does). I rarely see anybody else past the hashmarks.

This is especially obvious if the D do manage a clean possession. They have breakout options because Sid's already back there with them (mentioned this in the game day thread, but Sid took it upon himself to call a Gomez breakout, which doesn't seem to be one of Bylsma's preferred ways of advancing the puck since I've never seen anybody else try it. We got a decent shot out of it too). Every other guy on the team just streaks for the far blue line regardless of how much pressure the D are under by the chaser, which drives me bonkers.

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Old
03-01-2013, 01:56 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by plaidchuck View Post
Should've perched his ass in the slot last game then.
Forwards need to help too...can't rely on D to do everything.

Sid could have helped on two of those goals last night.

Glass on the 3rd one and 4th shouldn't have counted.

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Old
03-01-2013, 02:06 PM
  #58
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Same old song and dance...

Personnel aren't the problem. Bylsma is; he doesn't have a clue how to adapt to change.

Teams figured us out with about 12 games to go last season; after running the same system since we won the Cup. Blysma has done nothing to change things around.

Also, who the hell thinks Despres should be sitting right now? Bortuzzo or Engelland are better? GTFO!

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Old
03-01-2013, 02:06 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Okay so let's break down the defensive zone system here. In general, there seems to be a lack of attention given when guys are hanging out in our slot. When I played growing up and a guy was in the slot you knocked him around or at least tied up his stick. What is it about our system that let's guys stand in front of the net/get open in the slot with regularity?

What I see is that we have guys in the right areas generally (except when we have 2 d behind the net standing right next to each other which drives me insane) but just don't have their head on a swivel and aren't picking up guys. I see we all ***** about the system, but can someone articulate for me what is flawed in the system and how it should be fixed (I'm a pretty knowledgeable X and O's guy but I haven't been able to watch many games this year to really dig into it)?
I'm pretty sure the defensemen are being told to not tie up the offensive player, and front the guy with the puck to try to block passes. They are leaving the open man for the goalie to deal with if the puck gets through. I consistently see our defenders facing the puck carrier, and never the guy right behind them with their ass in the goalie's face trying to tie them up. Obviously you can't block every pass because it's almost humanly impossible to react quick enough in tight to get your stick/skate/etc on the puck to stop it from getting through you.

Also the defenseman consistently follow the guy they are defending all over the ice. Even up to the blue line on occasion. This is obviously going to create a huge gap down low where the defenseman should be, and none of the forwards are covering up. Classic reason of why you see those tick-tack-toe goals.

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03-01-2013, 02:07 PM
  #60
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The Penguins problem is coverage, they have a good D unit, but systematically, they're getting owned. It's just like the Philadelphia series, Bylsma didn't change one thing.

Man, I don't know how Ray Shero can't see this is a problem that only he can fix. Because Bylsma won't make adjustments.

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Old
03-01-2013, 02:12 PM
  #61
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Anyone remember 2 years ago, I guess the height of DB's defensive coaching, when the Dmen would get the puck out of their own zone in 3 seconds or less or your money back?

Now, teams are punishing our D on the forecheck and no one is winning board battles.

It is a system adjustment or did these guys just forget how to win a board battle over the past 1.5 seasons?

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Old
03-01-2013, 02:12 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
The Penguins problem is coverage, they have a good D unit, but systematically, they're getting owned. It's just like the Philadelphia series, Bylsma didn't change one thing.

Man, I don't know how Ray Shero can't see this is a problem that only he can fix. Because Bylsma won't make adjustments.
Exactly. It's 100% on Bylsma at the moment. This is how he's teaching his defense to play. He wants them to be "aggressive" yet completely ignores the fact that on more than a few occasions, they leave guys completely uncovered because of this.

Obviously his defensive system isn't working. It may work from time to time, but that's more of an anomaly than anything else.

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Old
03-01-2013, 02:14 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
Anyone remember 2 years ago, I guess the height of DB's defensive coaching, when the Dmen would get the puck out of their own zone in 3 seconds or less or your money back?

Now, teams are punishing our D on the forecheck and no one is winning board battles.

It is a system adjustment or did these guys just forget how to win a board battle over the past 1.5 seasons?
The opposing team knows every single little intricacy of Byslma's defensive scheme. They know that the first defenseman back will try to chip the puck to his partner, or blindly throw a pass up the boards.

It's up to Bylsma to adjust, and up until now he hasn't. It's pretty arrogant if you ask me.

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Old
03-01-2013, 02:17 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
The Penguins problem is coverage, they have a good D unit, but systematically, they're getting owned. It's just like the Philadelphia series, Bylsma didn't change one thing.

Man, I don't know how Ray Shero can't see this is a problem that only he can fix. Because Bylsma won't make adjustments.
Interesting reference for more reasons than just that those were bad losses and this is a bad loss.

Alex Semin and Claude Giroux are both players with magic hands. If you defend them by ceding ground, getting a stick in the lane and betting they won't get it through to (Tlusty/Hartnell) anyway, you're going to lose that bet. Both players burned us on the same type of play.

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Old
03-01-2013, 02:19 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Interesting reference for more reasons than just that those were bad losses and this is a bad loss.

Alex Semin and Claude Giroux are both players with magic hands. If you defend them by ceding ground, getting a stick in the lane and betting they won't get it through to (Tlusty/Hartnell) anyway, you're going to lose that bet. Both players burned us on the same type of play.
That's another thing, but that burden really falls on the forwards for backchecking hard, or not completely abandoning the zone at the slightest chance we may be getting possession of the puck.

Again, a systematic issue that only a coach can fix.

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Old
03-01-2013, 02:21 PM
  #66
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Relax, dudes.

Mark Eaton.

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Old
03-01-2013, 02:21 PM
  #67
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Thing I'm noticing the most this year( probably already been said) is that opposing teams continue to capitalize on rebounds...wide open opportunities. There's been plenty of times this year where there was no dman there to stop it. However, on the flip side ...they are stopping us from doing that. Luck plays a role on rebounds, but it's happening far too often . Too many wide open chances for opposing teams, and not nearly enough for us. That gap has to close

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Old
03-01-2013, 02:23 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
The opposing team knows every single little intricacy of Byslma's defensive scheme. They know that the first defenseman back will try to chip the puck to his partner, or blindly throw a pass up the boards.

It's up to Bylsma to adjust, and up until now he hasn't. It's pretty arrogant if you ask me.
Second interesting reference by someone in the last 5 minutes.

When Fonzie up in New York went on his tirade about "arrogance" I was wondering why what the ownership group is or isn't doing would be something that was even on a coach's radar.

Maybe he was talking about Bylsma. Maybe he was frustrated that he gameplanned against the Pens, didn't have the personnel to pull it off, while Bylsma just had his guys doing the same thing they'd do against the Blue Jackets. Wouldn't the coach of the conference champs be a bit miffed about being dismissed in such a way?

Could be interpreted by a coach as "arrogance," the same way it's interpreted as "arrogance" when someone from Floyd Mayweather's camp says they haven't watched video of his next opponent and don't know how he fights.

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Old
03-01-2013, 02:23 PM
  #69
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Thing I'm noticing the most this year( probably already been said) is that opposing teams continue to capitalize on rebounds...wide open opportunities. There's been plenty of times this year where there was no dman there to stop it. However, on the flip side ...they are stopping us from doing that. Luck plays a role on rebounds, but it's happening far too often . Too many wide open chances for opposing teams, and not nearly enough for us. That gap has to close
That's been an issue for a long time. Mostly because Fleury has no clue how to direct the puck to somewhere other than the high slot. He's gotten better at it over the years, but it's still a huge problem with him. That's a discussion for another thread on another day though.

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03-01-2013, 02:24 PM
  #70
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Well... plus our defensemen are generally miserable failures in front of their own net.

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Old
03-01-2013, 02:24 PM
  #71
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I'm on the side of the fence that doesn't think it's a personnel issue. The talent and depth is there. It's the way they're being instructed to play that is the issue. I've never seen a group look so damn clueless and baffled when defending against a cycle. We're also painfully weak in the low slot area.

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03-01-2013, 02:26 PM
  #72
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I'm not seeing alot of Orpik's leadership on the ice. He has god awful performances and talks **** on the rest of the team afterwards.

His days are numbered here. If dealing him is what separates us from getting Sid/Geno talented linemates, I'm down.

If we keep coming out flat like this, I'd deal him to shake that locker room up.
A player like Orpik is pretty much expected to show rapid decline with age. This is a guy who earned his keep because of his physical play. You take that away from him and he's an average at best defenseman that stinks one-on-one and isn't all that good positionally.

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Old
03-01-2013, 02:26 PM
  #73
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Well... plus our defensemen are generally miserable failures in front of their own net.
Because they are coached to front the puck carrier, and completely ignore the guy camping his ass right in front of the goalie.

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Old
03-01-2013, 02:29 PM
  #74
billybudd
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That's another thing, but that burden really falls on the forwards for backchecking hard, or not completely abandoning the zone at the slightest chance we may be getting possession of the puck.

Again, a systematic issue that only a coach can fix.
With a couple exceptions, notably Neal, most of the forwards do get back fast enough...just not far enough. The only guy who reliably passes the hashmarks on the backcheck is Sid and I get the impression he's out there freelancing because no other forward plays the way he does on the breakout or the backcheck.

And yeah, I think that's systemic (I KNOW the leaving the zone too fast is by design). I don't think the "hurry up to stop way too high" business is laziness.

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Old
03-01-2013, 02:29 PM
  #75
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Because they are coached to front the puck carrier, and completely ignore the guy camping his ass right in front of the goalie.
See... I tend to think it has much more to do bad bounces and puck luck, myself.

Just like the last three years worth of post seasons. Aberrations!

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