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Carlyle is stubborn as Burke

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Old
03-01-2013, 01:41 PM
  #101
hockeyfanz
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
If the Leafs did not have those tough guys, just how bravely to you think the softer Leaf's forwards would play? They also allow someone like - Phaneuf - to stay on the ice for more minutes, because he doesn't have to fight. They are extremely important, and Carlyle understands it. The Leafs are going to have a deep play-off run this spring, because the team's toughness is allowing the skill to shine.
What happens to the tough guys when Frattin and Lupul are ready? Who gets to sit out? Kulemin? Grabovski, MacArthur or McClement? Kadri or Kessel..maybe JVR? You think those goons will see the ice in the playoffs? No chance. Maybe if they face the Bruins one of them will dress....

You guys watch too much Don Cherry. Colton Orr on Kadri's line is an embarrassment..watching him try to keep up with the play....LOL.

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03-01-2013, 02:16 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
What happens to the tough guys when Frattin and Lupul are ready? Who gets to sit out? Kulemin? Grabovski, MacArthur or McClement? Kadri or Kessel..maybe JVR? You think those goons will see the ice in the playoffs? No chance. Maybe if they face the Bruins one of them will dress....

You guys watch too much Don Cherry. Colton Orr on Kadri's line is an embarrassment..watching him try to keep up with the play....LOL.
"After a single bear wandering into town has drawn an over-reaction from the residents of Springfield, Homer stands outside his house and muses, “Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol is working like a charm!”

Lisa sees through his reasoning: “That’s specious reasoning, dad.” Homer, misunderstanding the word “specious”, thanks her for the compliment.

Optimistically, she tries to explain the error in his argument: “By your logic, I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.” Homer is confused: “Hmm; how does it work?” Lisa: “It doesn’t work; it’s just a stupid rock!” Homer: “Uh-huh.” Lisa: “… but I don’t see any tigers around, do you?”

Homer, after a moment’s thought: “Lisa, I want to buy your rock…”"


Hang in there Hockeyfanz, this place is a cartoon sometimes.

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03-01-2013, 02:24 PM
  #103
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i have two issues with randy... his ice time how in th world kadri only played 15 mins is a joke... and his lines sometime ex. kadri with orr

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03-01-2013, 06:06 PM
  #104
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Dont buy it. Not saying Orr isnt useful on the bench in certain games but all this talk about how the tough guys are making the difference is hilarious. Watch hockey much?
Quite often actually,probably 2 or 3 games a week for the past 30 years and more in the play-offs.

Also been coaching kids for 20 years.Making players on the opposing team look twice to see who's on the ice buys your team valuable seconds to make a play.As well as giving team - mates piece of mind that their opponent is not going to take liberties with them for fear of getting a shot in the head.

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03-01-2013, 06:24 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Guy Boucher View Post
What you have to understand is that philosophically, Carlyle does not want to play a LH defender on the right side. You can't argue with facts. Look how much stronger Phanuef looks on the left side.

That means, Komisarek is competing against Holzer, Kostka and Franson.

Liles is competing against Gunnarsson, Phanuef and Fraser.

Komisarek is too slow. Even though Holzer has had a couple of bad games (today in particular), he's much faster than Komisarek, owns much better hands, and brings the same grit and toughness.

Furthermore, Komisarek is going to be bought-out at the end of the year. What's the use in playing/developing him? It makes more sense to integrate Holzer in the team.

As for Liles, well, Gunnarsson is much better.

That's why this team needs to trade for a good RH defender to play big minutes and bump Holzer a bit down in the line-up


As for Orr playing with Kadri - yes that is a stupid decision. But every coach makes stupid decisions...including the best coaches. We just have to live with it until Frattin/Lupul are ready to return.
How is it that everyone just skipped the only post that accurately described the dman situation?

Gonna quote this so hopefully people will read this.

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03-01-2013, 06:34 PM
  #106
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How is it that everyone just skipped the only post that accurately described the dman situation?

Gonna quote this so hopefully people will read this.
Because they don't get it. Half the time when people post their ideal D pairings they have guys playing on the side they don't even play regularily. If that player has had a history of playing both sides sure, but more often they haven't.

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03-01-2013, 06:37 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by TML g u n n e R s View Post
i have two issues with randy... his ice time how in th world kadri only played 15 mins is a joke... and his lines sometime ex. kadri with orr
Actually, I'm gonna let Carlyle himself address your comment.

Just listen very carefully during his media presser at about 3:19 sec mark

http://video.mapleleafs.nhl.com/vide...ed-share-video

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03-01-2013, 06:39 PM
  #108
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Stop complaining about Kadri's ice time. No reason to increase it except for more pp time(how many of those have we had in the last 3 games?). You can't increase his ice time or he will face much tougher opposition. Remember, this is still his first season. Why fix what isn't broken?

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03-01-2013, 06:45 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by TML g u n n e R s View Post
i have two issues with randy... his ice time how in th world kadri only played 15 mins is a joke... and his lines sometime ex. kadri with orr
Orr is only temporary until Frattin is ready,whether everyone that's complaining about Orr is aware or not.

As far as Kadri's ice time is concerned,I'm pretty sure Carlyle is taking it easy on the kid by not putting too much pressure on him.Top minutes have high expectations and Kadri needs to be eased into that role.


Last edited by black charger: 03-01-2013 at 06:50 PM. Reason: add info
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Old
03-02-2013, 01:25 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by black charger View Post
Quite often actually,probably 2 or 3 games a week for the past 30 years and more in the play-offs.

Also been coaching kids for 20 years.Making players on the opposing team look twice to see who's on the ice buys your team valuable seconds to make a play.As well as giving team - mates piece of mind that their opponent is not going to take liberties with them for fear of getting a shot in the head.
So do you dress 9 year old monster goons on the 4th line to intimidate your opposing team too? I think I'd actually be more afraid of the Rats in the league if Im on the ice....guys like Matt Cooke or Sean Avery...guys who can play and maybe even score a big goal or two, and will be dirty too....as in will hit you face first into the boards or get under the other teams superstars skin....way more effective than a monster goon ala
Orr who really is only effective beating down the opposing monster goon...who else in their right mind would fight Orr or McLaren for that matter? Those guys don't go after Crosby or Malkin, Stamkos or Giroux....they would never be on the ice at the same time. They aren't effective at eliminating the rats like Cooke either because no way Cooke would ever drop the gloves against those guys...he is not in the same weightclass..he'd get destroyed.

Im all for toughness and grit...I love it, but I like to see guys who can play while delivering it... And I think Orr is probably necessary in the odd matchup against the tougher teams but not even against every team. THe toughest team the Leafs will play is the Bruins....they don't even dress the equivalent of an Orr or McLaren...Guys like Lucic. Chara and Thornton are regular players who can play in many situations.

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03-02-2013, 03:11 PM
  #111
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So do you dress 9 year old monster goons on the 4th line to intimidate your opposing team too? I think I'd actually be more afraid of the Rats in the league if Im on the ice....guys like Matt Cooke or Sean Avery...guys who can play and maybe even score a big goal or two, and will be dirty too....as in will hit you face first into the boards or get under the other teams superstars skin....way more effective than a monster goon ala
Orr who really is only effective beating down the opposing monster goon...who else in their right mind would fight Orr or McLaren for that matter? Those guys don't go after Crosby or Malkin, Stamkos or Giroux....they would never be on the ice at the same time. They aren't effective at eliminating the rats like Cooke either because no way Cooke would ever drop the gloves against those guys...he is not in the same weightclass..he'd get destroyed.

Im all for toughness and grit...I love it, but I like to see guys who can play while delivering it... And I think Orr is probably necessary in the odd matchup against the tougher teams but not even against every team. THe toughest team the Leafs will play is the Bruins....they don't even dress the equivalent of an Orr or McLaren...Guys like Lucic. Chara and Thornton are regular players who can play in many situations.

Of course this tactic doesn't apply to kids.You teach kids skills almost exclusivlely until around 12.

If the Leafs had guys like Lucic and Thornton,Orr wouldn't be needed.But the Leafs skill guys are a bit soft and need someone to cover their back as they can.t do it themselves.

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03-03-2013, 10:49 AM
  #112
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This is brilliant - criticizing the state-of-Leafs-nation when we finally have a winning record and, more importantly, a team that obviously wants to play and sacrifice for this coach. A coach who is playing young players without the threat of demotion to the minors if they make one mistake. Tough guys getting enough minutes to protect and make room on the ice for Grabo, Kessel, Kadri and JVR to dance and do their scoring thing. I'm sure RC doesn't mean any personal insult to the veteran guys having to sit, but the coach is paid to bring success whatever that takes.

For the first time in a decade there is a light at the end of the failure tunnel.

You call this "stubborn"? What an unbelievable pile of crap being spewed by the overwhelming number of mental midgets lurking in this forum.

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03-03-2013, 10:52 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
"After a single bear wandering into town has drawn an over-reaction from the residents of Springfield, Homer stands outside his house and muses, “Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol is working like a charm!”

Lisa sees through his reasoning: “That’s specious reasoning, dad.” Homer, misunderstanding the word “specious”, thanks her for the compliment.

Optimistically, she tries to explain the error in his argument: “By your logic, I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.” Homer is confused: “Hmm; how does it work?” Lisa: “It doesn’t work; it’s just a stupid rock!” Homer: “Uh-huh.” Lisa: “… but I don’t see any tigers around, do you?”

Homer, after a moment’s thought: “Lisa, I want to buy your rock…”"


Hang in there Hockeyfanz, this place is a cartoon sometimes.
Love the Simpsons reference!

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Old
03-03-2013, 11:01 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by theTTC View Post
This is brilliant - criticizing the state-of-Leafs-nation when we finally have a winning record and, more importantly, a team that obviously wants to play and sacrifice for this coach. A coach who is playing young players without the threat of demotion to the minors if they make one mistake. Tough guys getting enough minutes to protect and make room on the ice for Grabo, Kessel, Kadri and JVR to dance and do their scoring thing. I'm sure RC doesn't mean any personal insult to the veteran guys having to sit, but the coach is paid to bring success whatever that takes.

For the first time in a decade there is a light at the end of the failure tunnel.

You call this "stubborn"? What an unbelievable pile of crap being spewed by the overwhelming number of mental midgets lurking in this forum.
Slow down there mr TTC.........I believe most Leaf fans are pleasantly surprised by the way the team is playing. Better than I expected for sure...but lets not get carried away..they are 4 games over .500 in a surprisingly weak Eastern Conference where the Montreal Canadiens sit atop....not to diminish the efforts of the Leafs because they have been entertaining...but there is always room for improvement and discussion about the hockey team. Thats all that is happening here. Nothing wrong with debating the merits of Orr playing alongside Kadri or the amount of ice time given to certain players. Nothing. Thats the fun of sports. The Hawks haven't lost in regulation time yet but I bet there are fans questioning the decisions of their head coach every game..LOL.

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03-03-2013, 06:12 PM
  #115
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Why do you consider the East weak?

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03-03-2013, 09:29 PM
  #116
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I don't see Carlyle as "stubborn", I see it as sticking to a consistent plan and putting players in a position that works best for the system and the players as well. Kadri is perfect where he's at, he's excelling in the 3rd line role, Carlyle is using the 2nd line as a shutdown role and Kadri IS NOT ready to be a shutdown guy, and he also isnt' ready to play top line minutes either. Pretty much every player currently is playing in a role they SHOULD be playing at, of course nothing's perfect and I do have beef that Kostka is getting top line mins and that Phaneuf is playing the top pp unti over Franson, but at the end of the day Carlyle is doing a lot of things right.

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03-09-2013, 06:55 PM
  #117
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Go ahead tell me I am overreacting but seriously WTF???


Holzer after all the mistakes he made against Boston and previously against Ottawa / NJ gets to keep playing?

What does Liles have to do get a chance again? Your telling me we couldn't use Liles against a fast pace Pens?


I guess some of you going to say. Well, you don't have a Norris or a Stanly Cup

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03-09-2013, 06:56 PM
  #118
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It's getting ridiculous right now. Holzer and Kostka are in over their heads at this level.

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03-09-2013, 06:58 PM
  #119
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The honeymoon is over. Get your head out of your ass Carlyle!

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03-09-2013, 07:53 PM
  #120
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Holzer and kostka definitely have some pics of Carlyle. This is insane.

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03-10-2013, 10:16 AM
  #121
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Getting awfully tired of hearing how these pugilists are making the difference this year for the Leafs. No they are not.. Its guys like JVR/Kadri/Goaltending and a defensive structure from coaching that is the difference. Not freakin Colton "cant skate" Orr and Fraser "I just came out of jail eyes" McLaren. Please.
Sorry HF, but this is much more about team phycy then adding skill set.

These so called unskilled goons add a measure of toughened pack mentality that is needed on a team that has it's share of players that provide absolutely no physical intimidation or presence on the ice what so ever.

Kessel,Lups,Boz,Lilles,kost,Gards,Mac,Steck,Gunnar ,Grabo, and on and on and on, the list is endless on this team, when one talks about players that put no fear in other players from a physical sense in any form.

Even the super skilled Oilers back in the day had their toughs on the team.

As long as they are filling the role asked of them, I'm perfectly fine with them on the team.

I think the toughs are more about getting inbetween the ears of their and our players in a "je ne sais quois" way.

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03-10-2013, 10:23 AM
  #122
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Dont buy it. Not saying Orr isnt useful on the bench in certain games but all this talk about how the tough guys are making the difference is hilarious. Watch hockey much?
Sorry, but you are overlooking one very real and serious aspects of a good team and thats the dressing room.

It's impossible to quantify the effect what it has some types of players mentally to see 3 monsters like that backing them up in the room and on the ice.

3 guys in a room saying to all, look mate, I'm here, I'll fight for you ,go do your thing, i got your back come hell or high water.

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03-10-2013, 10:45 AM
  #123
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Sorry, but you are overlooking one very real and serious aspects of a good team and thats the dressing room.

It's impossible to quantify the effect what it has some types of players mentally to see 3 monsters like that backing them up in the room and on the ice.

3 guys in a room saying to all, look mate, I'm here, I'll fight for you ,go do your thing, i got your back come hell or high water.
Yes...I am well aware of this train of thought and I am telling you...I dont believe it or dont buy it...Did those monsters play last night against the uber-skilled Pens? Cause I really didn't notice them on the ice. At all. Invisible because the Pens don't have any one dimensional meatheads. What is wrong with guys like you who misunderstand what I am saying Faltorvo? Too many one-dimensional players on a roster of 20 players is not a good thing. Whether their specialty be scoring goals (kessel), fighting (mclaren/orr) or winning faceoffs (steckel)...

Mark Fraser appears to be one tough customer but the guy can play a regular shift..he leads the league in plus/minus which I know is a meaningless stat to many but probably more meaningful than 5 minute majors and 10 minute misconducts. I have no problem with tough guys in the lineup and I know the importance because I didnt start watching hockey yesterday. Are you denying that Orr/McLaren are pretty useless at every other aspect of the game other than fighting, where they excel? (No argument here)...

What purpose did they serve against the Pens? Two wasted roster spots. The Pens dont have goons who play initimidating hockey. I prefer tough players in the ilk of Mark Fraser who can actually contribute in other ways. Against the Pens Orr played 5 shifts (3:48 minutes) and McLaren 6 shifts (4:35 minutes). Can the Leafs waste two roster spots on goons against a team like the Pens? Answer is easy. NO. Thats dumb. Why not have a bit more skill in the lineup against a skilled team?

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03-10-2013, 02:35 PM
  #124
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Yes...I am well aware of this train of thought and I am telling you...I dont believe it or dont buy it...Did those monsters play last night against the uber-skilled Pens? Cause I really didn't notice them on the ice. At all. Invisible because the Pens don't have any one dimensional meatheads. What is wrong with guys like you who misunderstand what I am saying Faltorvo? Too many one-dimensional players on a roster of 20 players is not a good thing. Whether their specialty be scoring goals (kessel), fighting (mclaren/orr) or winning faceoffs (steckel)...

Mark Fraser appears to be one tough customer but the guy can play a regular shift..he leads the league in plus/minus which I know is a meaningless stat to many but probably more meaningful than 5 minute majors and 10 minute misconducts. I have no problem with tough guys in the lineup and I know the importance because I didnt start watching hockey yesterday. Are you denying that Orr/McLaren are pretty useless at every other aspect of the game other than fighting, where they excel? (No argument here)...

What purpose did they serve against the Pens? Two wasted roster spots. The Pens dont have goons who play initimidating hockey. I prefer tough players in the ilk of Mark Fraser who can actually contribute in other ways. Against the Pens Orr played 5 shifts (3:48 minutes) and McLaren 6 shifts (4:35 minutes). Can the Leafs waste two roster spots on goons against a team like the Pens? Answer is easy. NO. Thats dumb. Why not have a bit more skill in the lineup against a skilled team?
Of course to many 1 dimensional players is bad, i never said to the contrary.

But as i pointed out previously, we don't have those well rounded players on the roster.

RC has to make do with what he has.

I don't need them to bring to much onto the ice. They serve the role just fine, the one that our coach seems to feel matters.

We have 2 of the type of players your worried about getting 4th line duties.

What skill was not on the ice instead of Orr and Mclem?

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03-10-2013, 02:46 PM
  #125
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Carlyle is an excellent x's and oh's coach. In the middle of a game, behind the bench, he uses his personnel about as well as anyone.

The issue is he's terrible at managing his roster going into games. As mentioned, he often puts the wrong players into the lineup and on the wrong lines, and doesn't recognize who would fair better and worse against certain types of teams.

He does like to stick with the same lineup over long lengths of time, though, and that's important, IMO. The biggest issue I had with Wilson was that he messed around constantly with the lineup after even the slightest bad game. Just look at Kadri and MacArthur for why doing that isn't very smart.

In all honestly, outside of style (he's much more defensive-oriented), Carlyle and Pat Quinn are extremely similar coaches. As much as I toot Reimer's horn, he's no Curtis Joseph or Ed Belfour. I think if the Leafs had goaltending like we're getting from Reimer in the Quinn era, we'd have a lot of the same complaints about his coaching style as we have today.

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