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Bossy vs. Makarov

View Poll Results: ?
Bossy 40 46.51%
Makarov 37 43.02%
Too close to call 9 10.47%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-01-2013, 04:49 AM
  #1
unknown33
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Bossy vs. Makarov

Looking at the past alltime project from 2009 Bossy was way ahead of Makarov, but from what I've seen the consensus is that Makarov was extremely underrated back then.

Overlapping prime, same position, but different leagues and nations so I think it's makes for an intersting comparison.

Who would you rank higher when creating an alltime ranking?

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03-01-2013, 07:11 AM
  #2
GWOW
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Both benefitted from playing with outstanding playmakers, but Bossy was superhuman IMO.

Plus, i cant get the post-1990 images of Makarov being extremely careless and soft on the puck.

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03-01-2013, 07:57 AM
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Darth Yoda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
Both benefitted from playing with outstanding playmakers, but Bossy was superhuman IMO.

Plus, i cant get the post-1990 images of Makarov being extremely careless and soft on the puck.
Who was this outstanding playmaker Makarov was supposed to have played with? There is nothing in the stats suggesting Igor Larionov was such a player. Rather, it seems Makarov was the one driving the KLM-lines offense.

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03-01-2013, 10:31 AM
  #4
Psycho Papa Joe
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Put Bossy in Russia and he probably has trouble making their national team, let alone usurping Makarov on the top line. Makarov makes team Canada quite easily.

Lets just say, in the 80's the only Canadian forward with more success was Wayne Gretzky. Makarov was way better than Stastny, the nhl's second leading scorer in the 80's.

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03-01-2013, 10:35 AM
  #5
Fred Taylor
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I do believe Makarov was the slightly better player.

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Old
03-01-2013, 10:48 AM
  #6
BraveCanadian
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I'm a big fan of Mike Bossy but I think that Makarov was a bit better outside of purely goalscoring.

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03-01-2013, 10:55 AM
  #7
Passchendaele
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Makarov was way better than Stastny, the nhl's second leading scorer in the 80's.
I somehow find that quote quite silly.

So you think Makarov would have scored 130-140 points each year in the 80s?

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03-01-2013, 11:45 AM
  #8
Psycho Papa Joe
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Originally Posted by Passchendaele View Post
I somehow find that quote quite silly.

So you think Makarov would have scored 130-140 points each year in the 80s?
No, but taken as a whole, Makarov was the 2nd best forward in the world in the 80's.

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03-01-2013, 01:00 PM
  #9
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Wow, pretty shocked at the results. For some reason I have a feeling that Makarov is rated lower by Russians than you guys. For some reason I would think Larionov would be ranked higher. I have no proof of this or anything. I'll ask my dad (though he's obviously not the authority on this).

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03-01-2013, 01:14 PM
  #10
Fred Taylor
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
Wow, pretty shocked at the results. For some reason I have a feeling that Makarov is rated lower by Russians than you guys. For some reason I would think Larionov would be ranked higher. I have no proof of this or anything. I'll ask my dad (though he's obviously not the authority on this).
Larionov had more longevity than Makarov, but Larionov was not even as good as Krutov in their primes, Makarov was easily the best player of the KLM line.

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03-01-2013, 03:02 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Passchendaele View Post
I somehow find that quote quite silly.

So you think Makarov would have scored 130-140 points each year in the 80s?
Makarov was an outstanding player but I don't think he was as good as Bossy.

The EYES showed a pretty impressive package with Makarov, who was the best Russian player I'd seen (except maybe Kharlamov but I was young). Makarov was a bull, amazing passer, good scorer and slick puck handler.

But I'd take Bossy over Sergei by a pretty fair margin. Bossy more than doubled Makarov's max goals scored five times in his short career. Yes, he was older and had some miles on him when he hit the NHL but Makarov was never as dominant a scorer as Bossy was.

It's tough to compare him in Russia. Sure he had amazing stats compared to others on those National Teams and he was excellent internationally but head-to-head Bossy outscored him in Canada Cups as well.

Bossy wasn't a flashy player and the eyes never showed a guy who put fans on the edge of their seats. He never beat dmen on rushes, wasn't the best stick-handler, wasn't strong on his skates except in the slot - but he could play.

I go with Bossy.

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03-01-2013, 03:23 PM
  #12
Big Phil
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I think when a poll like this is done and we are using a Russian player that wasn't allowed to go to the NHL by the Soviets back then you have to find a way to prove that they would have been better than the NHL mainstay. We know what Bossy could do year in and year out in the NHL, Canada Cups and postseason. I have a hard time believing Makarov or any other player would be able to eclipse 17 goals in three straight postseasons. 85 playoff goals overall. 573 regular season goals.

It was also pointed out that the best source of information we have is the Canada Cups and Bossy outscored Makarov in those tournaments combined. We don't know how Makarov would have handled the ins and outs of the NHL back then. Could he maintain the type of torrid pace Bossy had every year? We have to look at it this way:

Leading scorers from 1979-'86:
Gretzky - 1337
Bossy - 834
Dionne - 808
Stastny - 713 (didn't start until a year later)
Trottier - 691

That's the 1980s the year before Bossy's retirement and the leading scorers in that timeframe. We can assume another year for Stastny and he's right around Dionne's numbers since he had 109 points in his rookie season. Give him 90 or so the year before for the heck of it. Either way, Bossy outscored Dionne in that time frame. Yes, Dionne had some crazy seasons even before this but he still racked them up pretty good in the 1980s.

The question we have to ask is how whether Makarov could compete year in and year out offensively with someone like Dionne. That's a tough one because you can't even make a claim that Crosby is better offensively. Dionne did one thing very well and that was score and yet Bossy had a few more points in this time frame.

I think the burden of proof is on the people who chose Makarov in the first place. This is not a knock on him at all as I am one person who believes he belongs in the Hall of Fame but considering Bossy had more assists than goals in that time slot also means what Bossy rarely gets credit for and that was he was a great all around offensive prescence. Makarov was flashier but if we are judging them on effectiveness could Makarov have cracked 147 points in a season?

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Old
03-01-2013, 03:38 PM
  #13
TheDevilMadeMe
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You guys are basically saying the 1987 Canada Cup shouldn't count because Bossy didn't play in it.

These are their stats in the Canada Cups:

1981:
Bossy: 8-3-11 in 7 GP
Makarov: 3-6-9 in 7 GP

1984:
Bossy: 5-4-9 in 8 GP
Makarov: 6-1-7 in 6 GP

1987:
Makarov 7-8-15 in 9 GP

Bossy was selected as an All-Star forward of the 1981 tournament, and Makarov was selected an All-Star forward of the 1984 tournament.

I don't see much difference between their performances in the Canada Cups.

Edit: Does anyone happen to know why Makarov, Krutov, and Kasatonov only played 6 games each in the 1984 Canada Cup? (And Larionov played 5). I know Fetisov missed the tournament because of injury.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 03-01-2013 at 03:46 PM.
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Old
03-01-2013, 03:47 PM
  #14
Big Phil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You guys are basically saying the 1987 Canada Cup shouldn't count because Bossy didn't play in it.

These are their stats in the Canada Cups:

1981:
Bossy: 8-3-11 in 7 GP
Makarov: 3-6-9 in 7 GP

1984:
Bossy: 5-4-9 in 8 GP
Makarov: 6-1-7 in 6 GP

1987:
Makarov 7-8-15 in 9 GP

Bossy was selected as an All-Star forward of the 1981 tournament, and Makarov was selected an All-Star forward of the 1984 tournament.

I don't see much difference between their performances in the Canada Cups.
I wouldn't say the difference in the two Canada Cups they shared was much since Bossy only outscores him by 4 points combined but it is one of those things you can point to in Bossy's favour when someone mentions how good Makarov was in the Canada Cups. Bossy was doing this and still averaging 60 goals a year.

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03-01-2013, 03:51 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I wouldn't say the difference in the two Canada Cups they shared was much since Bossy only outscores him by 4 points combined but it is one of those things you can point to in Bossy's favour when someone mentions how good Makarov was in the Canada Cups. Bossy was doing this and still averaging 60 goals a year.
Okay, I'll reprahse that - I don't see any advantage for either player in their Canada Cup performances.

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03-01-2013, 04:02 PM
  #16
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Mike Bossy. Proven more often against better competition.

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03-01-2013, 04:20 PM
  #17
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Okay, I'll reprahse that - I don't see any advantage for either player in their Canada Cup performances.
Right, my sentiments exactly. My question here to the people who choose Makarov is what evidence are you basing it from that he would have been better than Bossy in the 1980s? Canada Cups are all we saw from these Russians in short tournaments and in spurts. It gets a little muddy when you try and say they could have outplayed arguably the purest goal scorer in NHL history over a decade. I guess my thought is that the burden of proof is on the Makarov voters. Kind of similar to proof showing that Kharlamov would have been as succesful as Lafleur.

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03-01-2013, 04:27 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Right, my sentiments exactly. My question here to the people who choose Makarov is what evidence are you basing it from that he would have been better than Bossy in the 1980s? Canada Cups are all we saw from these Russians in short tournaments and in spurts. It gets a little muddy when you try and say they could have outplayed arguably the purest goal scorer in NHL history over a decade. I guess my thought is that the burden of proof is on the Makarov voters. Kind of similar to proof showing that Kharlamov would have been as succesful as Lafleur.
I voted Makarov. My reasoning:

1) They were equals in the Canada Cups. Bossy did what he did in the superior league, but Makarov ROFLMAOwned the Soviet league at the time, so I honestly don't see what more Makarov could have done domestically other than be born somewhere else.

2) Makarov was easily the best forward in Europe in the 1980s, and we saw how well the Europeans did in the NHL after communism fell.

3) 1+2 make it tough to figure out who was better in his prime, but Makarov has a substantial advantage over Bossy in terms of longevity. This is the justification for picking Makarov.

4) I'll be honest - given the history of the history board (how's that for meta?), I expected Bossy to win this poll easily, which made it easier for me to vote for Makarov. I'm honestly surprised the voting is so close. But I don't think it's unreasonable to vote for either one. Bossy is obviously a more known commodity.

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03-01-2013, 05:23 PM
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Big Phil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I voted Makarov. My reasoning:

1) They were equals in the Canada Cups. Bossy did what he did in the superior league, but Makarov ROFLMAOwned the Soviet league at the time, so I honestly don't see what more Makarov could have done domestically other than be born somewhere else.

2) Makarov was easily the best forward in Europe in the 1980s, and we saw how well the Europeans did in the NHL after communism fell.

3) 1+2 make it tough to figure out who was better in his prime, but Makarov has a substantial advantage over Bossy in terms of longevity. This is the justification for picking Makarov.

4) I'll be honest - given the history of the history board (how's that for meta?), I expected Bossy to win this poll easily, which made it easier for me to vote for Makarov. I'm honestly surprised the voting is so close. But I don't think it's unreasonable to vote for either one. Bossy is obviously a more known commodity.
Alright, fair enough. And yes I do think Makarov would have been just fine over here in his prime. You've given some good reasons. Makarov does beat Bossy for longevity but Bossy didn't slow down really, he just basically retired. He had a 61 goal season in 1986. Then a season where he played less games in 1987 and then retired. I think in this alternate universe Bossy still has the bad back that forces him to retire but would Makarov be able to do enough head to head in order for us to put him above Bossy? Kurri did lots of things post 1987 but on an all-time list Bossy is always rightfully ahead of him.

Okay here's a question, what does a normal stat line of Makarov's look like to you in the 1980s?

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03-01-2013, 05:32 PM
  #20
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Larionov had more longevity than Makarov, but Larionov was not even as good as Krutov in their primes, Makarov was easily the best player of the KLM line.
Makarov was not that much better than Krutov on the KLM line.

Not that Makarov wasn't great, but Krutov is severely underrated.

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03-01-2013, 05:39 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Does anyone happen to know why Makarov, Krutov, and Kasatonov only played 6 games each in the 1984 Canada Cup? (And Larionov played 5). I know Fetisov missed the tournament because of injury.
The Soviets only played 6 games because they lost in the semi finals against Canada. Sweden and Canada made the finals, they are the only teams who played 8 games (5 round robin + 1 semi final + 2 final games).

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03-01-2013, 06:18 PM
  #22
Fred Taylor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Makarov was not that much better than Krutov on the KLM line.

Not that Makarov wasn't great, but Krutov is severely underrated.
Oh I agree that they were close, I guess I should have stated that Makarov was clearly better rather than easily better. Makarov had a better career than Krutov but while both were in their primes they were fairly close.

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03-01-2013, 06:21 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Alright, fair enough. And yes I do think Makarov would have been just fine over here in his prime. You've given some good reasons. Makarov does beat Bossy for longevity but Bossy didn't slow down really, he just basically retired. He had a 61 goal season in 1986. Then a season where he played less games in 1987 and then retired. I think in this alternate universe Bossy still has the bad back that forces him to retire but would Makarov be able to do enough head to head in order for us to put him above Bossy? Kurri did lots of things post 1987 but on an all-time list Bossy is always rightfully ahead of him.

Okay here's a question, what does a normal stat line of Makarov's look like to you in the 1980s?
I'll chime in on this one and say he'd be a 40+ goal, 80+ assist player atleast, as an average throughout the 80's. Some seasons higher some lower, most likely.

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03-01-2013, 06:25 PM
  #24
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Makarov was not that much better than Krutov on the KLM line.

Not that Makarov wasn't great, but Krutov is severely underrated.
Krutov was Makarov's equal internationally for a few years surrounding the 1987 Canada Cup, but I think Makarov was at that level for much longer, and Makarov really dominated the Soviet domestic league in a way that Krutov didn't.

Makarov also showed a normal slow decline upon entering the NHL, while Krutov's play basically fell off a cliff.

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03-01-2013, 06:33 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Makarov was not that much better than Krutov on the KLM line.

Not that Makarov wasn't great, but Krutov is severely underrated.
True, Krutov just faded faster once he got to North America, rapidly lost his figure

I don't recall the specifics about the canada Cups but I know the USSR had been known to run up scores against poorer teams in international play, inflating stats. As I recall, Bossy played behind 99 those Canada Cups, didn't get prime PP time and big minutes. I think the last one was played with B.Sutter and Tonelli when Trotts played for the US Team. Makarov and the big five were on the ice together for all big minutes and games - and he & they were deadly.

I will look it up when I get a chance.

I still say Bossy who averaged 61 goals per 80 games over his career is the better player.

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