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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:58 AM
  #776
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It does seem to me like he seriously overvalued the trade market for an unsigned O'Reilly. I guess he was hoping things would heat up in the offseason, but he should have realized the very real possibility of an offer sheet would tie his hands and should have moved more quickly and been more active. I for one am glad he wasn't since I don't think he would've gotten good value, and I didn't want O'Reilly traded. But the organization needed to be decisive about this, and they weren't.

From what has been reported, the Avs did not specifically state what the price was for O'Reilly, they simply listened to offers instead of actively shopping the guy. To me, that means they weren't being serious about trading him, which meant they should've been far, far more active to sign the kid. They didn't do that either. Either way, I feel this was bumbling on an epic scale, and should cost him his job, among other things I've taken issue with.

If O'Reilly gets traded after this then Sherman's an even bigger idiot than I gave him credit for.

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03-01-2013, 01:06 PM
  #777
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After this mess, they need to dump both the master (PL) and the puppet (Sherman) and put in place a transparent front office with a bona fide GM who makes bona fide personnel decisions. The current structure is intentionally designed to avoid accountability.

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03-01-2013, 01:34 PM
  #778
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Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
Well I dont know about you guys but I sure am glad we traded a 1 and 2 for a goalie who has a 2.77 GAA and a .907 SV %

Brilliant. This is almost as bad as the EJ trade.
Have you seen this team play? We are lucky those numbers are that good....

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03-01-2013, 01:37 PM
  #779
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Originally Posted by Rzombo4 prez View Post
After this mess, they need to dump both the master (PL) and the puppet (Sherman) and put in place a transparent front office with a bona fide GM who makes bona fide personnel decisions. The current structure is intentionally designed to avoid accountability.
This. But it will not happen. Damn Kroenke's.

If the reports about ROR having to pass through waivers are true, him not using this to his advantage is a fireable offense.

I mean now we have this ugly contract on our hands. If Sherman would have told anyone that ROR has to pass through waivers, you can bet that no one would have OS him and we could have gotten a great return at the draft.
Now we are stuck with his horrible contract and we will sell him off (this is PL we are talking about. Sakic is the only one who survived a contract dispute and ROR owned them) for bad value.

Just clean house already..... Please Josh.....

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03-01-2013, 02:08 PM
  #780
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Just nudge PL into full retirement. Super Joe can take his spot, and I think Sherman will do fine. Good scouts, pretty solid GM (IMO), just need a new Admiral for this ship.









and coach, and player development staff, ....

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03-01-2013, 02:48 PM
  #781
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Lacroix and Sherman were completely taken to school in this whole situation.

I agree that on top of all their other failures, these guys should be long gone now.

But they won't be.

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03-01-2013, 02:52 PM
  #782
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I can imagine Stan calling Pierre and Greg into the office.

Stan: "Somebody just told me this morning that I'm paying a guy I've never heard of about $6.5m next year."

Pierre: "We had no choice, Stan."

Greg: "I did the accounting numbers and everything, boss..."

Stan: "Get the hell out of my office. Eric is in charge now."

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03-01-2013, 02:57 PM
  #783
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Originally Posted by TwoPadStack View Post
I can imagine Stan calling Pierre and Greg into the office.

Stan: "Somebody just told me this morning that I'm paying a guy I've never heard of about $6.5m next year."

Pierre: "We had no choice, Stan."

Greg: "I did the accounting numbers and everything, boss..."

Stan: "Get the hell out of my office. Rick is in charge now."
Fixed.

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03-01-2013, 06:11 PM
  #784
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I LMAO yesterday before Sherman presser, when Rycroft was excited about how Feaster came to rescue... MY GOD we needed a GM from another team to come to rescue us.

And Sherman anouncing that they had come to terms with ROR... what a joke...

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03-01-2013, 06:24 PM
  #785
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I'm not exactly thrilled with how Sherman has handled this O'Reilly situation, but I don't see all this contempt for the man all of a sudden now that the offer sheet thing happened. It's just more blame games.

He wanted Duchene to take a reasonable $3.5M bridge deal to prove what he can be, before they give him a big contract. Worried whether the last year would represent his career. Duchene understood this, and took the deal.

He asked O'Reilly to take the same deal, worried that his first two years would represent his career. O'Reilly refused, and according to TPS never and would never have backed down from a $5M asking price.

Sherman refused to pay this. Explored trade options, didn't like the offers being made. Tried to be patient like other GM's have done and see if the deadline or draft would bring better offers.

It took an insanely dumb GM in Feaster to send him a crazy offer sheet that would require a $6.5M QO to retain his rights in a year and a half to get to this point. A GM so dumb he didn't realize he would have to pass through waivers, and all but assuredly would have given up a 1st and 3rd for nothing after he was claimed.

What exactly should Sherman have done? Given in to O'Reilly's ridiculous $5M demands? Expected a GM would send a dumbass offersheet like that, and taken whatever offers were being made ASAP? Taken a 1st that could have been mid round or even late round, and a 3rd for O'Reilly?

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03-01-2013, 06:40 PM
  #786
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Some of us have held him contempt for a while now

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03-01-2013, 06:50 PM
  #787
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Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
Some of us have held him contempt for a while now
I understand that, though I disagree with that notion as well.

I just don't see how Sherman screwed the O'Reilly thing up because Feaster was dumb enough to send that overpriced offer sheet and risk giving up a 1st and 3rd for a player that had to pass through waivers.

What should he have done differently? Caved and given O'Reilly $5M early on? No one can convince me he was worth that as a 21 year old RFA and one decent offensive season of 55 points.

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03-01-2013, 06:56 PM
  #788
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I understand that, though I disagree with that notion as well.

I just don't see how Sherman screwed the O'Reilly thing up because Feaster was dumb enough to send that overpriced offer sheet and risk giving up a 1st and 3rd for a player that had to pass through waivers.

What should he have done differently? Caved and given O'Reilly $5M early on? No one can convince me he was worth that as a 21 year old RFA and one decent offensive season of 55 points.
Agree, but why they were in such a rush to match still bugs me. If someone has 7 days to decide, I'd hope they would at least take 1. It was not like the sheet was 5yrs for 15m. Then I could see jumping on it so quickly.

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03-01-2013, 07:03 PM
  #789
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Originally Posted by Aslanrh View Post
Agree, but why they were in such a rush to match still bugs me. If someone has 7 days to decide, I'd hope they would at least take 1. It was not like the sheet was 5yrs for 15m. Then I could see jumping on it so quickly.
They want to be able to trade him next season at the deadline if they have to.
It being the year of the Olympics the trade deadline will push a few weeks forward, but is still unknown. We all would want him crucified if he had matched after 6 days and the trade deadline was a day too early.

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03-01-2013, 07:06 PM
  #790
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Originally Posted by Aslanrh View Post
Agree, but why they were in such a rush to match still bugs me. If someone has 7 days to decide, I'd hope they would at least take 1. It was not like the sheet was 5yrs for 15m. Then I could see jumping on it so quickly.
I don't honestly see that as a big deal either. It would be silly to think they hadn't explored the potential offer sheet situation, with at least a few different pay rates. Probably got the ok from the Kroenke's ahead of time. They just had to weight the options with the way the salary was structured in Feaster's deal, versus taking a gamble on where Calgary's 1st and 3rd rounders would end up. To me it's pretty obvious. I wouldn't have taken the deal either.

By matching quickly, they show other GM's they won't be pushed around with offer sheets. It isn't a distraction all week. It gets O'Reilly back in the lineup sooner.

And most importantly, if they had waited there's a chance next year's trade deadline could be sooner than March 7th or whatever date they waited to, and they won't have the option to trade him next season.

They already knew well in advance what they would do, so why wait just for the sake of waiting, and potentially causing all those things to happen?

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03-01-2013, 07:17 PM
  #791
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I don't honestly see that as a big deal either. It would be silly to think they hadn't explored the potential offer sheet situation, with at least a few different pay rates. Probably got the ok from the Kroenke's ahead of time. They just had to weight the options with the way the salary was structured in Feaster's deal, versus taking a gamble on where Calgary's 1st and 3rd rounders would end up. To me it's pretty obvious. I wouldn't have taken the deal either.

By matching quickly, they show other GM's they won't be pushed around with offer sheets. It isn't a distraction all week. It gets O'Reilly back in the lineup sooner.

And most importantly, if they had waited there's a chance next year's trade deadline could be sooner than March 7th or whatever date they waited to, and they won't have the option to trade him next season.

They already knew well in advance what they would do, so why wait just for the sake of waiting, and potentially causing all those things to happen?
So reporters could expose issues like the Waiver issue perhaps (not saying that would actually have applied)? Not asking for the week, just a "sleep on it" moment.

All in all, it was a rough spot for Management, and I do not find them to be inept, the situation just blew.

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03-01-2013, 07:18 PM
  #792
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Fixed.
or this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoPadStack View Post
I can imagine Stan calling Pierre and Greg into the office.

Stan: "Somebody just told me this morning that I'm paying a guy I've never heard of about $6.5m next year."

Pierre: "We had no choice, Stan."

Greg: "I did the accounting numbers and everything, boss..."

Stan: "Get the hell out of my office. Josh is in charge now."

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03-01-2013, 07:40 PM
  #793
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So reporters could expose issues like the Waiver issue perhaps (not saying that would actually have applied)? Not asking for the week, just a "sleep on it" moment.

All in all, it was a rough spot for Management, and I do not find them to be inept, the situation just blew.
Well, right or wrong, it sounds like neither GM, any of the agents at the biggest agency in the NHL, and possibly anyone in the NHL except for Bill Daily knew that would have had to happen. Or maybe the Avs did know, though I doubt it.

What would that information have realistically done though? We can joke about extreme situations, but it obviously would have came across as collusion and they would have been punished somehow.

So the option would have been to screw Feaster over out of spite, and take a less than stellar return, while helping out Columbus. Would have been awesome to see Feaster get annihilated publicly, but in the end probably not the best result for the Avs.

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03-01-2013, 08:11 PM
  #794
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I'm not exactly thrilled with how Sherman has handled this O'Reilly situation, but I don't see all this contempt for the man all of a sudden now that the offer sheet thing happened. It's just more blame games.

He wanted Duchene to take a reasonable $3.5M bridge deal to prove what he can be, before they give him a big contract. Worried whether the last year would represent his career. Duchene understood this, and took the deal.

He asked O'Reilly to take the same deal, worried that his first two years would represent his career. O'Reilly refused, and according to TPS never and would never have backed down from a $5M asking price.

Sherman refused to pay this. Explored trade options, didn't like the offers being made. Tried to be patient like other GM's have done and see if the deadline or draft would bring better offers.

It took an insanely dumb GM in Feaster to send him a crazy offer sheet that would require a $6.5M QO to retain his rights in a year and a half to get to this point. A GM so dumb he didn't realize he would have to pass through waivers, and all but assuredly would have given up a 1st and 3rd for nothing after he was claimed.

What exactly should Sherman have done? Given in to O'Reilly's ridiculous $5M demands? Expected a GM would send a dumbass offersheet like that, and taken whatever offers were being made ASAP? Taken a 1st that could have been mid round or even late round, and a 3rd for O'Reilly?
I feel the same way as you do. I can't see how he should be blame for any of this. Even before the waiver issue, CAL was still stupid to make the offer sheer. As I said before, they gave the RFAs the power back that it is ok to holdout. Furthermore they would have screwed themselves with regard to the next QO being 6.5M. I still thing they had no intention of getting RoR. They wanted to screw the Avs salary structure and force them to trade one of their Cs next year.

As for the waiver issue, maybe the Avs knew the rule and just assumed that all the other GMs did as well and they were safe from an offer sheet.

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03-01-2013, 08:23 PM
  #795
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Some people are going too far with this,

Who is the better player Duchene or O'Reilly? Duchene

What is Duchene's salary? 3.5 million

Does O'Reilly deserve more than Duchene? No

Was it a mistake for asking so much for O'Reilly? I don't think so, just like 99% of the fans here want more than MDZ & Boyle for him.

Was it an unlucky turn of events? Sure hell it was.

Should we thank Feaster for getting our player back? Yes, because again 99% of you said you wanted ROR to sign an offer sheet so we can match it to speed up the process and Flames did just that.

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03-01-2013, 08:34 PM
  #796
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I just don't see how Sherman screwed the XXX thing up because...

What should he have done differently?
My friend, I have seen you post these two things about Sherman so many times, I simply have no response. I respect your opinion, and am generally open to discussing most anything to quite the discreet degree (especially with you), but....... I simply have no response.

Your ability to forgive just about anything the man does simply has me stumped. I truly wish I could see it, but I can't.

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03-01-2013, 09:09 PM
  #797
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I don't honestly see that as a big deal either. It would be silly to think they hadn't explored the potential offer sheet situation, with at least a few different pay rates. Probably got the ok from the Kroenke's ahead of time. They just had to weight the options with the way the salary was structured in Feaster's deal, versus taking a gamble on where Calgary's 1st and 3rd rounders would end up. To me it's pretty obvious. I wouldn't have taken the deal either.

By matching quickly, they show other GM's they won't be pushed around with offer sheets. It isn't a distraction all week. It gets O'Reilly back in the lineup sooner.

And most importantly, if they had waited there's a chance next year's trade deadline could be sooner than March 7th or whatever date they waited to, and they won't have the option to trade him next season.

They already knew well in advance what they would do, so why wait just for the sake of waiting, and potentially causing all those things to happen?
Getting ROR back in the line up sooner?! I don't think so... they wanted him gone. They matched the offer sheet because it makes than look LESS dumb, but to the entire league, they blew it.

I don't know how so many fans can so blindly forgive management/ownership so easily.

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03-01-2013, 09:15 PM
  #798
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Originally Posted by S E P H View Post
Some people are going too far with this,

Who is the better player Duchene or O'Reilly? Duchene

What is Duchene's salary? 3.5 million

Does O'Reilly deserve more than Duchene? No

Was it a mistake for asking so much for O'Reilly? I don't think so, just like 99% of the fans here want more than MDZ & Boyle for him.

Was it an unlucky turn of events? Sure hell it was.

Should we thank Feaster for getting our player back? Yes, because again 99% of you said you wanted ROR to sign an offer sheet so we can match it to speed up the process and Flames did just that.
* Based on last season, YES, ROR deserved a better contract than Duchene.
Duchene is having a great year, but last year he was AWFUL. How people easily forget it!

* Unlucky turn of events?!?! Even DATER called an offershet was a possibility a few weeks back.

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03-01-2013, 09:29 PM
  #799
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My friend, I have seen you post these two things about Sherman so many times, I simply have no response. I respect your opinion, and am generally open to discussing most anything to quite the discreet degree (especially with you), but....... I simply have no response.

Your ability to forgive just about anything the man does simply has me stumped. I truly wish I could see it, but I can't.
I keep asking because I hope at some point someone will say what exactly a better option was, rather than just criticizing minor issues with perfect hindsight. So far all I've seen was Hannan signing for less than Zanon, which is not a good example because his asking price on July 1st surely wasn't the $1M he signed on August 17th.

I don't forgive the man for everything he's done. I didn't understand, or like the Zanon signing from the beginning. I think in hindsight, keeping Liles would have been a better option, but don't really care that much because he wouldn't fix this team. I wish they could have found a way to bring in a more mobile D in the summer, but barring overpaying guys, it wasn't worth it just to save 2012-13 when they wouldn't have been that competitive anyway.

I think the Avs are always way too cold in negotiations, but that's been going on so long I don't know how much of that is actually Sherman. If it is mostly his doing, then that's completely idiotic, and hurts more than helps the team in the long run.

Depending on what the offers were for O'Reilly, I wouldn't have been happy with him turning down a MDZ+Kreider for O'Reilly+O'Brien type deal. There's no way to know what the deal was though, and my bets are rather that teams were trying to low ball him under pressure, rather than he was asking for too much.

I don't like that he re-upped Sacco, or that the next coach will likely be another incestuos choice, but I really have a strong feeling PL is in full control of the coaching decisions to make sure his team goes in the direction he wants.

Aside from a potential good deal he may or may not have turned down, these are minor issues to me, and I don't understand why anyone is up in arms about that crap when he has brought in some good players, and they are slowly rebuilding towards a success and deserve more time before running him out of town.

These are not indictable offenses. It's just people understandably getting impatient with this team losing again, continuing to be injury plagued, and coming out of the lockout with a fan favorite staging his own lockout, and looking for someone they can blame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iceberg View Post
Getting ROR back in the line up sooner?! I don't think so... they wanted him gone. They matched the offer sheet because it makes than look LESS dumb, but to the entire league, they blew it.

I don't know how so many fans can so blindly forgive management/ownership so easily.
If you're not going to make an effort to follow the conversation, why are you quoting me? We were talking specifically about what the reason for matching quickly was, not the reason for matching the offer in general.


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03-01-2013, 09:30 PM
  #800
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
What exactly should Sherman have done? Given in to O'Reilly's ridiculous $5M demands? Expected a GM would send a dumbass offersheet like that, and taken whatever offers were being made ASAP? Taken a 1st that could have been mid round or even late round, and a 3rd for O'Reilly?
A series of mistakes can be stopped or righted at any moment by a tactful move. Had Sherman not knee-jerked and matched, he'd have time to learn about the waiver situation. In that case, he can dial up Columbus for some assets in return for not matching. You get more assets for a player who doesn't want to be on the Avs, and you royally screw over a divisional opponent in the process. It would be turning a bad situation into a huge win.

Matching so quickly is a nice token gesture, but it cost him.

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