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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM

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Old
03-01-2013, 08:34 PM
  #801
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A series of mistakes can be stopped or righted at any moment by a tactful move. Had Sherman not knee-jerked and matched, he'd have time to learn about the waiver situation. In that case, he can dial up Columbus for some assets in return for not matching. You get more assets for a player who doesn't want to be on the Avs, and you royally screw over a divisional opponent in the process. It would be turning a bad situation into a huge win.

Matching so quickly is a nice token gesture, but it cost him.
If Ryan O'Reilly doesn't want to be on the Avs, he wouldn't have signed an offer sheet.

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03-01-2013, 08:34 PM
  #802
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* Based on last season, YES, ROR deserved a better contract than Duchene.
Duchene is having a great year, but last year he was AWFUL. How people easily forget it!

* Unlucky turn of events?!?! Even DATER called an offershet was a possibility a few weeks back.
One season doesn't justify a 4.1 million dollar increase for a solid defensive player in the first two years and one good offensive season. What we are paying him is on potential.

Duchene had an injury filled year when he wasn't playing 100% during all the games of the second half. I agree that the first half he was bad, but did have that game against Dallas.

What I meant about unlucky turn of the events, is directed to the people calling Sherman a moron for waiting this long to trade and now had to match this. Those same people would be calling him a moron for MDZ+Boyle as well.

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03-01-2013, 08:40 PM
  #803
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A series of mistakes can be stopped or righted at any moment by a tactful move. Had Sherman not knee-jerked and matched, he'd have time to learn about the waiver situation. In that case, he can dial up Columbus for some assets in return for not matching. You get more assets for a player who doesn't want to be on the Avs, and you royally screw over a divisional opponent in the process. It would be turning a bad situation into a huge win.

Matching so quickly is a nice token gesture, but it cost him.
With all due respect because you don't come around here much, this is ridiculous.

If he would have worked out some deal with Columbus they both would have been busted for obvious collusion.

Not to mention, if no one in the league knew about the waiver thing, how would he know he should wait just to hear about it.

Not to mention, I think Feaster would have had a strong leg to stand on with his interpretation of the RFA's from overseas, especially when he says they haven't even finalized the CBA, and no one has really seen it yet. Which I think is absolutely insane by the way.

How could they enforce a rule, when it's not finalized yet, or been shown to the GM's? This is all a moot issue.

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03-01-2013, 08:44 PM
  #804
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
If he would have worked out some deal with Columbus they both would have been busted for obvious collusion.
Doesn't apply in this situation. There's no collusion in asking a team if they are going to waiver wire a guy or not.

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Not to mention, if no one in the league knew about the waiver thing, how would he know he should wait just to hear about it.
It has now come out, not a day later. So someone, somewhere knew. Would it hurt to call and check with the league? It's called due diligence.

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03-01-2013, 08:55 PM
  #805
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Doesn't apply in this situation. There's no collusion in asking a team if they are going to waiver wire a guy or not.
What are you saying he should have done with Columbus that would have helped them? Are you saying he could have been available for the Avs to pick back up in their spot? That teams like Columbus, Buffalo, or Washington wouldn't have claimed O'Reilly without having to give up any assets, and at worst let him walk in a year and a half? For free?

I can tell you right now what the answer would have been, I don't need to make a phone call. The answer would have been "hell yes."

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It has now come out, not a day later. So someone, somewhere knew. Would it hurt to call and check with the league? It's called due diligence.
If both GM's, the entire Newport Sports Agency, and most if not all of the NHL thought he just fell under the clause that clearly states RFA's are exempt from passing through waivers, this is simply not a realistic thing for you to expect of anyone.

It's a moot issue, I don't see the league being able to enforce that rule if the CBA's not finalized, and the GM's haven't seen it.

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03-01-2013, 09:11 PM
  #806
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I keep asking because I hope at some point someone will say what exactly a better option was, rather than just criticizing minor issues with perfect hindsight. So far all I've seen was Hannan signing for less than Zanon, which is not a good example because his asking price on July 1st surely wasn't the $1M he signed on August 17th.

I don't forgive the man for everything he's done. I didn't understand, or like the Zanon signing from the beginning. I think in hindsight, keeping Liles would have been a better option, but don't really care that much because he wouldn't fix this team. I wish they could have found a way to bring in a more mobile D in the summer, but barring overpaying guys, it wasn't worth it just to save 2012-13 when they wouldn't have been that competitive anyway.

I think the Avs are always way too cold in negotiations, but that's been going on so long I don't know how much of that is actually Sherman. If it is mostly his doing, then that's completely idiotic, and hurts more than helps the team in the long run.

Depending on what the offers were for O'Reilly, I wouldn't have been happy with him turning down a MDZ+Kreider for O'Reilly+O'Brien type deal. There's no way to know what the deal was though, and my bets are rather that teams were trying to low ball him under pressure, rather than he was asking for too much.

I don't like that he re-upped Sacco, or that the next coach will likely be another incestuos choice, but I really have a strong feeling PL is in full control of the coaching decisions to make sure his team goes in the direction he wants.

Aside from a potential good deal he may or may not have turned down, these are minor issues to me, and I don't understand why anyone is up in arms about that crap when he has brought in some good players, and they are slowly rebuilding towards a success and deserve more time before running him out of town.

These are not indictable offenses. It's just people understandably getting impatient with this team losing again, continuing to be injury plagued, and coming out of the lockout with a fan favorite staging his own lockout, and looking for someone they can blame.



If you're not going to make an effort to follow the conversation, why are you quoting me? We were talking specifically about what the reason for matching quickly was, not the reason for matching the offer in general.
Just wanted you to know that I agree with just about all of this. Sherman's done a good job in a **** situation like he has been since he got here. Now let's see if he can keep doing so while adding the few remaining cornerstones he hasn't get acquired for us.

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03-01-2013, 09:18 PM
  #807
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
What are you saying he should have done with Columbus that would have helped them? Are you saying he could have been available for the Avs to pick back up in their spot? That teams like Columbus, Buffalo, or Washington wouldn't have claimed O'Reilly without having to give up any assets, and at worst let him walk in a year and a half? For free?

I can tell you right now what the answer would have been, I don't need to make a phone call. The answer would have been "hell yes."



If both GM's, the entire Newport Sports Agency, and most if not all of the NHL thought he just fell under the clause that clearly states RFA's are exempt from passing through waivers, this is simply not a realistic thing for you to expect of anyone.

It's a moot issue, I don't see the league being able to enforce that rule if the CBA's not finalized, and the GM's haven't seen it.
So until the CBA is finalized there are no rules?

I'm pretty sure that they have a draft somewhere and that draft will be the rule for the time being. The
NHL can make the rulings that they see fit and I would be surprised if a team was going to sue the league over a ruling.

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03-01-2013, 09:22 PM
  #808
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Just wanted you to know that I agree with just about all of this. Sherman's done a good job in a **** situation like he has been since he got here. Now let's see if he can keep doing so while adding the few remaining cornerstones he hasn't get acquired for us.
Exactly how I feel. His tenure hasn't been perfect, no GM's has. He's had a couple minor things that could be argued he should or shouldn't have done. He had a young player holdout for more money than he's worth, and had his hand forced by a POS GM.

But he's done some good things, and brought in some good players. A couple years down the road from this rebuild, if they're still on the verge of missing the playoffs, and haven't addressed the big needs of this team, I will be right there with some of you other guys calling for his head.

But not at this stage, it's still on the right track with a good core, with some good secondary pieces.

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03-01-2013, 09:33 PM
  #809
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So until the CBA is finalized there are no rules?

I'm pretty sure that they have a draft somewhere and that draft will be the rule for the time being. The
NHL can make the rulings that they see fit and I would be surprised if a team was going to sue the league over a ruling.
Team's fight rulings all the time, but most of the time they lose because they all have a copy of the CBA. Obvious issues like the draft, or other clearcut things wouldn't be overturned because no one would have the balls to argue them, and they'd probably lose.

Weird unique circumstances that are in a grey area in terms of interpretation would have a tough time being upheld, if no one has seen the exact wording yet in the finalized document.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Feaster
"Prior to tendering the offer sheet for Ryan O'Reilly we, as a hockey operations department, examined whether there were any impediments to our successfully securing the services of the player including, but not limited to, his having played in the KHL after the start of the current NHL season," Flames GM Jay Feaster explained in a team statement on Friday.

"Our interpretation of the Article 13 transition rules governing restricted free agents and the applicability of Article 13.23 under the new Collective Bargaining Agreement to such RFA's was, and continues to be, different than the NHL's current interpretation as articulated to us this morning. Moreover, throughout our discussions, the player's representative shared our interpretation and position with respect to the non-applicability of Article 13.23.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Morris
"We still haven't seen the CBA, the agreement is in place but I don't think the document is complete for anyone's eyes to read so that issue is the first I've heard of that. At the same time, one would have believed that Calgary doing what they did would have gotten the player if Colorado had made a decision not to match."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Holland
Detroit Red Wings GM Ken Holland stressed that it's tricky to negotiate the new CBA without teams having all the details down on paper to study.

"Obviously, right now it's a different time because there's a CBA in place," Holland told TSN. "We haven't really got the book. We've got the memorandum of understanding, but you'd like to get the book, the CBA and read through it."
It's an interesting twist to a weird situation, but ultimately I think Columbus would have claimed him, Calgary would have fought it based on it being unclear and the actual document not finished or shown to anyone, and probably won.

Either way it wouldn't have helped the Avalanche. He'd either be a Blue Jacket or a Flame, and the Avs would be stuck hoping that 1st rounder was in the top ten, and they picked a good player with it.

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03-01-2013, 10:16 PM
  #810
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post

It's an interesting twist to a weird situation, but ultimately I think Columbus would have claimed him, Calgary would have fought it based on it being unclear and the actual document not finished or shown to anyone, and probably won.

Either way it wouldn't have helped the Avalanche. He'd either be a Blue Jacket or a Flame, and the Avs would be stuck hoping that 1st rounder was in the top ten, and they picked a good player with it.
Or then the Avs would've fought that they interpreted the rule in the way that was intended and were comfortable giving O'Reilly to the Jackets as they knew he would be picked up.
Maybe that wouldn't have stuck though.

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03-01-2013, 11:13 PM
  #811
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The league intervened when it looked like Scott Gomez and Wade Redden would have to wait a year and do nothing before they could be bought out--and I think the league would've intervened here as well. In any event it would've been an even bigger and more long-drawn-out mess than it already has been. And the entire league would've been sucked into this ridiculous sideshow.

Sherman deserves to get dinged for not negotiating and not actively shopping a holdout player, thereby leaving them vulnerable to an offer sheet and effectively letting another GM dictate the team's salary structure going forward. A salary structure they were willing to sacrifice three years of investment in a star player to keep intact. He deserves to be fired for that. But he does not deserve to be fired because he didn't orchestrate some stupid Machiavellian scheme because of some ambiguity in the rules that more than a few well-educated people overlooked.

Sherman made the right move to match, and I at least give him credit for doing so quickly and decisively. Too bad he wasn't so quick and decisive in the events leading up to this.

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03-01-2013, 11:22 PM
  #812
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The league intervened when it looked like Scott Gomez and Wade Redden would have to wait a year and do nothing before they could be bought out--and I think the league would've intervened here as well. In any event it would've been an even bigger and more long-drawn-out mess than it already has been. And the entire league would've been sucked into this ridiculous sideshow.

Sherman deserves to get dinged for not negotiating and not actively shopping a holdout player, thereby leaving them vulnerable to an offer sheet and effectively letting another GM dictate the team's salary structure going forward. A salary structure they were willing to sacrifice three years of investment in a star player to keep intact. He deserves to be fired for that. But he does not deserve to be fired because he didn't orchestrate some stupid Machiavellian scheme because of some ambiguity in the rules that more than a few well-educated people overlooked.

Sherman made the right move to match, and I at least give him credit for doing so quickly and decisively. Too bad he wasn't so quick and decisive in the events leading up to this.
Agreed whole-heartedly on this.

It's too bad that Sherman, and to an extent O'Reilly, allowed the situation to go as far as it did. But I'm not seeing the point in debating it, not matching would have been dumb. Unfortunately for those who don't like GM Sherman, the power of hindsight will be on their side. IF the Flames end up with a Top 5 pick, it's going to be real easy for them to say, "Stupid Sherman, he should have taken the picks!".

And that will be bothersome to me, because there's no possible way to know how the Flames would have played with O'Reilly in the fold. So, like I said, hindsight most likely won't be kind to him, but unfortunately, because of the circumstances that he, and Camp O'Reilly, are responsible for, he was stuck in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation...something that I'm hoping he and the Avs Brass will learn from and therefore won't allow it to happen again.

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03-01-2013, 11:24 PM
  #813
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I keep asking because I hope at some point someone will say what exactly a better option was, rather than just criticizing minor issues with perfect hindsight. So far all I've seen was Hannan signing for less than Zanon, which is not a good example because his asking price on July 1st surely wasn't the $1M he signed on August 17th.

I don't forgive the man for everything he's done. I didn't understand, or like the Zanon signing from the beginning. I think in hindsight, keeping Liles would have been a better option, but don't really care that much because he wouldn't fix this team. I wish they could have found a way to bring in a more mobile D in the summer, but barring overpaying guys, it wasn't worth it just to save 2012-13 when they wouldn't have been that competitive anyway.

I think the Avs are always way too cold in negotiations, but that's been going on so long I don't know how much of that is actually Sherman. If it is mostly his doing, then that's completely idiotic, and hurts more than helps the team in the long run.

Depending on what the offers were for O'Reilly, I wouldn't have been happy with him turning down a MDZ+Kreider for O'Reilly+O'Brien type deal. There's no way to know what the deal was though, and my bets are rather that teams were trying to low ball him under pressure, rather than he was asking for too much.

I don't like that he re-upped Sacco, or that the next coach will likely be another incestuos choice, but I really have a strong feeling PL is in full control of the coaching decisions to make sure his team goes in the direction he wants.

Aside from a potential good deal he may or may not have turned down, these are minor issues to me, and I don't understand why anyone is up in arms about that crap when he has brought in some good players, and they are slowly rebuilding towards a success and deserve more time before running him out of town.

These are not indictable offenses. It's just people understandably getting impatient with this team losing again, continuing to be injury plagued, and coming out of the lockout with a fan favorite staging his own lockout, and looking for someone they can blame.
I generally agree with all this, but I don't think the bold is necessarily a good thing. PL doesn't exactly have a good track record with coaching hires, and has never once gone outside his circle. He promoted Sacco in the first place. He brought Granato into the organization, and it's debatable, nay probable, that he organized his re-promotion him after Q left. Q was an old Avs assistant, and Hartley came from within as well. I think Bender nailed it in another thread, our next coach will very likely be one of the following: Quinn, Army, Chenowyth, Roy, or Jacques Martin. Looking at potential names I want to believe otherwise, but I don't want to get let down again.

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03-02-2013, 12:11 AM
  #814
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Agreed whole-heartedly on this.

It's too bad that Sherman, and to an extent O'Reilly, allowed the situation to go as far as it did. But I'm not seeing the point in debating it, not matching would have been dumb. Unfortunately for those who don't like GM Sherman, the power of hindsight will be on their side. IF the Flames end up with a Top 5 pick, it's going to be real easy for them to say, "Stupid Sherman, he should have taken the picks!".

And that will be bothersome to me, because there's no possible way to know how the Flames would have played with O'Reilly in the fold. So, like I said, hindsight most likely won't be kind to him, but unfortunately, because of the circumstances that he, and Camp O'Reilly, are responsible for, he was stuck in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation...something that I'm hoping he and the Avs Brass will learn from and therefore won't allow it to happen again.
This will get worse when the other RFA need a contract. If ROR at 50 points is worth 6.5M then what about Landeskog, Duchene etc. This was badly handled by all GMs involved here. And now Sherman needs to manage this with his tight budget

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03-02-2013, 01:16 AM
  #815
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
The league intervened when it looked like Scott Gomez and Wade Redden would have to wait a year and do nothing before they could be bought out--and I think the league would've intervened here as well. In any event it would've been an even bigger and more long-drawn-out mess than it already has been. And the entire league would've been sucked into this ridiculous sideshow.

Sherman deserves to get dinged for not negotiating and not actively shopping a holdout player, thereby leaving them vulnerable to an offer sheet and effectively letting another GM dictate the team's salary structure going forward. A salary structure they were willing to sacrifice three years of investment in a star player to keep intact. He deserves to be fired for that. But he does not deserve to be fired because he didn't orchestrate some stupid Machiavellian scheme because of some ambiguity in the rules that more than a few well-educated people overlooked.

Sherman made the right move to match, and I at least give him credit for doing so quickly and decisively. Too bad he wasn't so quick and decisive in the events leading up to this.
If there's one aspect of this all that Sherman could possibly hold blame for, it would be not knowing that any offer sheet could potentially bring with it the interpretation of the CBA that could result in the team extending the offer sheet giving up the assets, and losing the player to waivers at the same time.

Trying to look at that objectively, and realistically though given the circumstances of no one having the actual CBA in their hands and only the memorandum of understanding, and what appears to be the vagueness of the RFA exemption from this, it's really hard to tell how much of that should be expected of Sherman in this situation.

One could argue that from Feaster's perspective that if he were submitting the offer sheet, right before doing so he should check with the league to make sure his interpretation is correct, and that is kind of fair in my eyes. But it's a bit of another story for Sherman to have the foresight to look at it from another team's perspective and think maybe this interpretation of the CBA rule which we haven't seen yet, may not be correct, and I should check with the league office to see if any team extends an offer sheet to O'Reilly, he'll have to pass through waivers for them first, and if so I can make a big deal out of that so no one does so.

I think that's a somewhat fair critique to make of Sherman, but it's such a weird circumstance, and the fact they haven't actually seen the CBA, it almost seems to me like from the Avs POV, that would have been a very insightful and smart thing to pick up on, not necessarily a damning thing that they didn't pick up on.

However, if someone wants to stick by the claim that the Avs should have known what would have affected another team in that sense, I can't necessarily fight that. It's just really hard to tell from a laymen's POV.

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Agreed whole-heartedly on this.

It's too bad that Sherman, and to an extent O'Reilly, allowed the situation to go as far as it did. But I'm not seeing the point in debating it, not matching would have been dumb. Unfortunately for those who don't like GM Sherman, the power of hindsight will be on their side. IF the Flames end up with a Top 5 pick, it's going to be real easy for them to say, "Stupid Sherman, he should have taken the picks!".

And that will be bothersome to me, because there's no possible way to know how the Flames would have played with O'Reilly in the fold. So, like I said, hindsight most likely won't be kind to him, but unfortunately, because of the circumstances that he, and Camp O'Reilly, are responsible for, he was stuck in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation...something that I'm hoping he and the Avs Brass will learn from and therefore won't allow it to happen again.
That's really to me, the more important evaluation of the Avs, and Sherman's decision making process in this whole offer sheet thing.

There's lots of well this could have happened kind of scenarios, but the most objective way to view this is in regard to whether they should have matched or not. There's just a mind blowing number of aspects to this, for me to sit here and question everything at this point with hindsight of the waiver situation isn't exactly fair IMO unless I'm a well versed CBA and NHL employee that can say, "hey I knew what was going on, and I wouldn't have done what Sherman did."

The most fair evaluation from our standpoint IMO should be, whether they should have matched the offer sheet or not. To me, it's an obvious yes, and doing so quickly serves them better, especially when they surely already evaluated the scenario with a number of different salaries ahead of time.

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I generally agree with all this, but I don't think the bold is necessarily a good thing. PL doesn't exactly have a good track record with coaching hires, and has never once gone outside his circle. He promoted Sacco in the first place. He brought Granato into the organization, and it's debatable, nay probable, that he organized his re-promotion him after Q left. Q was an old Avs assistant, and Hartley came from within as well. I think Bender nailed it in another thread, our next coach will very likely be one of the following: Quinn, Army, Chenowyth, Roy, or Jacques Martin. Looking at potential names I want to believe otherwise, but I don't want to get let down again.
I can't disagree with this, though I really strongly believe this is PL asserting his will. I don't think he has a strong influence outside of the coaching choices at this point, other then possibly being a mentor to Sherman and available for guidance. I think E. Lacroix, Brad Smith, Sakic and whoever else probably do the job of evaluating the current roster, and players outside that would fit in well and help, and Sherman makes the ultimate decision on a risk vs reward type of scenario, and using his smarts and common sense. Along with negotiating trades and contracts, which are better suited to his expertise.

I do think though as President, and being in the league for as long as he has, PL has developed a level of clout and a reason to say I know what makes a better coach for an NHL franchise than you Sherman the accountant, or you Sakic, and son Eric as ex players, and you Brad Smith as a scout.

Everyone including Korenke probably back this whole heartedly given his two cups, and everyone else's lack of expertise in this area and don't question him.

I won't argue that the coaching choices are a problem in the past and going forward, but not as a result of Sherman. The only way to change that is to get PL to step down somehow, or get a new owner, because Kroenke just doesn't know enough about hockey to know the difference.

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This will get worse when the other RFA need a contract. If ROR at 50 points is worth 6.5M then what about Landeskog, Duchene etc. This was badly handled by all GMs involved here. And now Sherman needs to manage this with his tight budget
This definitely has the potential to cause a big problem, and I've alluded to this in other threads. Unless O'Reilly plays up to the level he did last year at the very least, and behind two other centers that could be tough, potentially with worse linemates if the coach decides to keep Landy with Duchene or Stastny, it will be very tough to trade him with that GM facing the likelihood of having to qualify him at $6.5M.

This is a very big concern. To me it's kind of close in risk, but I think there's a lot of elements that could hopefully work out in the Avs favor. He could play great. He could indicate a willingness to sign a long term deal for less than $6.5M per. A team could show an interest in him either way.

Any of which could be beneficial to either re-singing him themselves and making him Stastny's replacement, or trading him in a year. Conversely, not matching him runs a very clear risk of a number of things. The Flames could make the playoffs, eliminating the chance at a lottery pick. Potentially being a mid round pick, or possibly being a later round pick if they catch a hot streak in the playoffs like they've done before. They'd also run the risk of picking a player that doesn't pan out that well, or at all at the NHL level no matter where they picked, but especially if it's outside the top 5 or so.

To me, it's an extremely crappy situation, mostly brought on by O'Reilly's insistence on $5M according to TPS, and being forced between two crappy choices by a POS GM in Feaster that broke the unspoken code on offer sheets, and was more to blame for not making sure his interpretation of the RFA rule was correct, than it should have been for Sherman. Ultimately though, a choice I think Sherman probably chose the better of given everything he knew at the time, and given the risk of both decisions.


Last edited by Foppa2118: 03-02-2013 at 01:28 AM.
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03-02-2013, 02:38 AM
  #816
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I'm pretty sure we're going to be making a new thread in the summer if the Avalanche don't make the playoffs.

Overall, the last four years have been so-so. Greg Sherman definitely has an eye for young talent and when he's gambled on players, they've all been young.

That said, the Ryan O'Reilly contract situation has left egg all over his face, and Colorado's roster definitely is still a work in progress.

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03-02-2013, 04:51 AM
  #817
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I'm pretty sure we're going to be making a new thread in the summer if the Avalanche don't make the playoffs.

Overall, the last four years have been so-so. Greg Sherman definitely has an eye for young talent and when he's gambled on players, they've all been young.

That said, the Ryan O'Reilly contract situation has left egg all over his face, and Colorado's roster definitely is still a work in progress.
I think on this situation you can only really blame ROR and his agent/father combination. They were out of line and I'm happy Colorado didn't pay these suckers whatever they wanted(Until they had to). ROR will be traded in one year. That's it.

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03-02-2013, 05:28 AM
  #818
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If you're not going to make an effort to follow the conversation, why are you quoting me? We were talking specifically about what the reason for matching quickly was, not the reason for matching the offer in general.
I understood that, but it does not make sense to me. They had plant of time to "get him in the line up" but didn't.

The way you put it, it sounds as if the FO were actually desperate to improve the team, and that's not true.

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03-02-2013, 05:54 AM
  #819
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One season doesn't justify a 4.1 million dollar increase for a solid defensive player in the first two years and one good offensive season. What we are paying him is on potential.

Duchene had an injury filled year when he wasn't playing 100% during all the games of the second half. I agree that the first half he was bad, but did have that game against Dallas.
I still think that many people here have selective memory.

Duchene had a terrible year, even BEFORE the injures (like you pointed out, but many forget).

A LOT of fans here wanted him traded (?). Don't we remember?! Many questioned his maturity level, he came in bad shape, expending his offseason fishing.

ROR wanted to be payed not just by his offensive production (altough he led the Avs last season), but for being the ultimate professional.

From all the reports, he was always the first guy in and the last guy out in practices, a leader in the locker room.

On the ice, he played against the other teams top line, shutting them down and scoring. It was the first year he had a linemate (Landeskog) who had any offensive potential. He did the job you expected Stastny or Duchene to do.

17M for 5 Years?! That's a slap in the face!

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What I meant about unlucky turn of the events, is directed to the people calling Sherman a moron for waiting this long to trade and now had to match this. Those same people would be calling him a moron for MDZ+Boyle as well.
The reason the entire FO looks like morons to me is because they felt, like many fans here, that ROR had no leverage, and that they could do whatever they wanted, including wait until the offseason to trade him, or get him to sign the deal the Avs wanted.

It blew in their faces!!! That's why Sherman looked so unconfortable on his press conference. He got schooled.

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03-02-2013, 10:37 AM
  #820
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I understood that, but it does not make sense to me. They had plant of time to "get him in the line up" but didn't.

The way you put it, it sounds as if the FO were actually desperate to improve the team, and that's not true.
The way I put it implied getting him back on the ice sooner rather than later to help the team win games, was one of the many reasons why it was better to match quickly rather than waiting just for the sake of waiting when you've already made up your mind.

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03-02-2013, 11:15 AM
  #821
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I think on this situation you can only really blame ROR and his agent/father combination. They were out of line and I'm happy Colorado didn't pay these suckers whatever they wanted(Until they had to). ROR will be traded in one year. That's it.
O'Reilly's not the sucker. Sherman is. Apparently so is Feaster.

They opted to make the player stew instead of actively shopping him, getting a real idea of what the market was for him, and also didn't engage in negotiations. In essence, he did NOTHING. If he was just relying on "the code" to protect him from an offer sheet, he's an idiot.

He made O'Reilly wait at home because he wanted to keep the salary structure of the team the way it was. Now that's gone. The entire purpose of keeping O'Reilly out of the lineup is now gone, and we wasted two months for nothing. And now he's in a situation where he can't possibly get top market value for the guy via trade, and even if he does he'll have already paid the kid $9 million dollars.

That's a failure no matter how you cut it.

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03-02-2013, 11:22 AM
  #822
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O'Reilly's not the sucker. Sherman is. Apparently so is Feaster.

They opted to make the player stew instead of actively shopping him, getting a real idea of what the market was for him, and also didn't engage in negotiations. In essence, he did NOTHING. If he was just relying on "the code" to protect him from an offer sheet, he's an idiot.

He made O'Reilly wait at home because he wanted to keep the salary structure of the team the way it was. Now that's gone. The entire purpose of keeping O'Reilly out of the lineup is now gone, and we wasted two months for nothing. And now he's in a situation where he can't possibly get top market value for the guy via trade, and even if he does he'll have already paid the kid $9 million dollars.

That's a failure no matter how you cut it.
Not at all, Greg wasn't the one who gave Ryan the contract he wanted, he just matched it, once Ryan had already missed half of this shortened season and lost the privilege of playing with Landy, all while hurting his image around the league. Ryan may have gotten the money he wanted for the next year and a half, but he hurt himself in the negotiations after that unless he just goes ******* for the next 100 games.

If our future RFAs try to point to Ryan's salary, Greg has a lot to point to that'll counteract that because the Avs didn't buckle.

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03-02-2013, 11:37 AM
  #823
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Not at all, Greg wasn't the one who gave Ryan the contract he wanted, he just matched it, once Ryan had already missed half of this shortened season and lost the privilege of playing with Landy, all while hurting his image around the league. Ryan may have gotten the money he wanted for the next year and a half, but he hurt himself in the negotiations after that unless he just goes ******* for the next 100 games.

If our future RFAs try to point to Ryan's salary, Greg has a lot to point to that'll counteract that because the Avs didn't buckle.
If Ryan works as hard as he has these last three seasons and builds upon last year's breakout, people will quickly forget any deficits in character he has.

Yeah, his rep took a ding for this. Doesn't mean he's the loser in this sad little saga. It just means he cares about $$$ as much as most other professional athletes.

Again, Sherman was FORCED to match a contract he didn't want to pay O'Reilly because he flat-out got outmaneuvered.

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03-02-2013, 11:56 AM
  #824
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If Ryan works as hard as he has these last three seasons and builds upon last year's breakout, people will quickly forget any deficits in character he has.

Yeah, his rep took a ding for this. Doesn't mean he's the loser in this sad little saga. It just means he cares about $$$ as much as most other professional athletes.

Again, Sherman was FORCED to match a contract he didn't want to pay O'Reilly because he flat-out got outmaneuvered.
Just because you don't want to pay someone something doesn't mean you're not ok with paying it if the situation calls for it. I think for us the issue was less the money involved, and more so the principle of not buckling and not being the ones to offer the big money.

And that's what we did, now our kids know that if they're going to be stubborn about getting more money out of the avs their only choice is to hold out until they find an OS they want, that's a pretty serious pressure in future negotiations.

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03-02-2013, 12:05 PM
  #825
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Just because you don't want to pay someone something doesn't mean you're not ok with paying it if the situation calls for it. I think for us the issue was less the money involved, and more so the principle of not buckling and not being the ones to offer the big money.

And that's what we did, now our kids know that if they're going to be stubborn about getting more money out of the avs their only choice is to hold out until they find an OS they want, that's a pretty serious pressure in future negotiations.
The whole notion of "principle" is what got the Avs into this mess. There's a time to be principled, and there's a time to be pragmatic. The Avs acted arrogantly to their own detriment and now they're paying the consequences. $9 million of them in fact.

They could've negotiated a less expensive deal and kept their salary structure largely intact. They didn't, and now they have to deal with the consequences not just with O'Reilly, but their other star players as well.

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