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The All-Purpose Goaltending Thread #8

View Poll Results: Should we use an amnesty buyout on Bryz?
Hell Yes! 65 72.22%
Hell No! 25 27.78%
Voters: 90. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:50 AM
  #151
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Hey hey. A little more respect for Boosh!

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03-01-2013, 11:51 AM
  #152
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Bryz/Dipietrio

also it's the defense.


Bryz can play okay with bad defense, hence mediocre.

If he plays with okay defense, he plays good.

There's a scale of okay, to good, to great. I think he'll always be one step up above the D.

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03-01-2013, 11:53 AM
  #153
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Bryz has petered a bit but it is nothing like last year....I attribute it to overwork and that is the fault of Holmgren for not having an NHL capable backup during a shortened season and one where the schedule was the worst for the Flyers the first 20 games.

Really, I mean ever since the Carter and Richards trades which have worked out and him striking out in the free agent sweepstakes..I don't think Holmgren has been particularly deft with his asset management and plan B's at all....

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03-01-2013, 03:56 PM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
These comments show a fundamental lack of understanding about how contracts, money, and expectations work
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
you continually ignore that expectations are directly related to the player's cap hit after the contract is signed..
what you both continually ignore, is that i'm not talking about 'expectations based on contract' .. i'm discussing Bryz's on ice performance & this teams defensive issues

so, nobody here would ever criticize Bryz if he made $ 200,000, right ?
after all, there are no expectations for a goalie getting pad that much, right ?

BS:

Boosh, ML, Biron ... EVERY GOALIE here gets criticized. Nobody here says "well, ML's cap hit is only .9 MIL, so his performance is acceptable"

NO, we say "HE SUX & shouldn't even be in the NHL !!"

it's about ON ICE PERFORMANCE with me, i dont care WHAT a GM "thinks" a player is worth [Snow / Dipietro ??]

go play fantasy hockey GM with someone else. So far this year, goaltending has not been the Flyers issue

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03-01-2013, 04:02 PM
  #155
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Leighton's cap hit should be 0, because he isn't an NHL caliber player. His play is unacceptable even for 900k.

And once again, you're the only person here playing "fantasy hockey GM" by ignoring the salary cap.

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03-01-2013, 04:16 PM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
what you both continually ignore, is that i'm not talking about 'expectations based on contract' .. i'm discussing Bryz's on ice performance & this teams defensive issues

so, nobody here would ever criticize Bryz if he made $ 200,000, right ?
after all, there are no expectations for a goalie getting pad that much, right ?

BS:

Boosh, ML, Biron ... EVERY GOALIE here gets criticized. Nobody here says "well, ML's cap hit is only .9 MIL, so his performance is acceptable"

NO, we say "HE SUX & shouldn't even be in the NHL !!"

it's about ON ICE PERFORMANCE with me, i dont care WHAT a GM "thinks" a player is worth [Snow / Dipietro ??]

go play fantasy hockey GM with someone else. So far this year, goaltending has not been the Flyers issue
There are expectations on anyone playing in the NHL, especially if that player is on the ice for 60 minutes per game; fan microscopes always focus on goalies. Do you think Bryz has been the only goalie criticzed by Flyers fans? Your handle is a pretty good indication of the quality of goalies that have played for the Flyers over the last 40 years.

As for your extreme salary example... If Bryz made $200K, the Flyers would have an extra several million dollars to spend on the skaters that you constantly blame for the team's failures.

If you can find a quote where I have placed any blame on Bryz for the team's poor start, I'd love to see it. I haven't seen too many other posts blaming Bryz for the team's results, either.

No one is acting as a fantasy GM, but don't be surprised if Bryz is bought out in the summer of 2014 if his numbers for next season match this season's current numbers. Your blind support of Bryz is incredible; he may have started the season well, but his numbers are decidedly average. Since you conveniently deleted the relevant section of my initial post, I'll say it again: teams cannot afford to pay star salaries to players producing average (or worse) numbers. Cap hit matters in the modern NHL.

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03-01-2013, 04:32 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
i'm discussing Bryz's on ice performance & this teams defensive issues

go play fantasy hockey GM with someone else. So far this year, goaltending has not been the Flyers issue[/B]
The Flyers' defensive deficiencies are at least partially a result of Bryzgalov's contract. If Leighton or Boosh were our starting goalie and Bryz was gone, we'd be saving more than 4M against the cap, which would've allowed us to sign another top 4 defenseman and/or to make our offer sheet to Shea Weber even more ridiculous.

Money matters. If you don't think so, you're the one playing fantasy hockey GM. When we spent money on everything but goaltending in 2010-2011, our two starting goalies had GAAs of .915 and .916. In 09-10 they had .905 save percentages. In 08-09, they had .915 and .912 save percentages. Mr. Big Money Bryzgalov can't consistently stay above the goaltending Mendoza line of .900.


Last edited by WeekendAtBernies: 03-01-2013 at 05:01 PM.
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03-01-2013, 05:05 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
No one is acting as a fantasy GM
yes, you ARE. as soon as you bring contracts into the discussion it is no longer about his about his ON ICE performance, it becomes "relative to expectations based on contract terms"

Does Lavy give players a "pass" if they don't make alot of money ? Do the fans not boo a bad penalty by a player who makes little money ? Do they forgive a bad goal by ML just because his cap hit is small ??

NO. and neither do I. I base my views / critique a player based on ON ICE PERFORMANCE. if you don't like that, ignore my posts, but I refuse to get dragged into the pointless discussion of "relative to expectations based on contract terms"

i hate the way Briere plays .... bad defensively, lazy & takes bad penalties .... ON THE ICE, not "relative to expectations based on contract terms"

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
If you can find a quote where I have placed any blame on Bryz for the team's poor start, I'd love to see it. I haven't seen too many other posts blaming Bryz for the team's results, either.
it sure looks like you are saying "for the amount of money he makes, Bryz should be playing better"

if you are not saying that:
1. my apologies
2. explain what you do mean

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03-01-2013, 05:26 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
as soon as you bring contracts into the discussion it is no longer about his about his ON ICE performance, it becomes "relative to expectations based on contract terms"
This makes less than no sense. It makes negative sense. The two aren't mutually exclusive in the slightest. Here in the real world where the NHL exists, those expectations and cap hit compared to on ice performance are amazingly important. Removing cap considerations entirely when determining how acceptable a players' performance is places you in the realm of fantasy hockey. Have you ever even participated in a fantasy league? The way you talk about it, I assume you haven't.

If you're going to blame the team for Bryz's performance, you have to take into account the fact that Bryz's cap hit has a direct effect on the quality of the team that can be assembled in front of him. If Bryzgalov is incapable of making up for that for more than a couple weeks, then he flat out isn't worth his cap hit and shouldn't be kept around long term. A better alternative must be sought.

Even if you want to live in a dreamworld where cap hit doesn't exist, Bryz is having an underwhelming season either way, as reflected by his underwhelming stats and often inconsistent and underwhelming performance in games lately. There's still time for redemption, though.

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03-01-2013, 05:55 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
yes, you ARE. as soon as you bring contracts into the discussion it is no longer about his about his ON ICE performance, it becomes "relative to expectations based on contract terms"

Does Lavy give players a "pass" if they don't make alot of money ? Do the fans not boo a bad penalty by a player who makes little money ? Do they forgive a bad goal by ML just because his cap hit is small ??

NO. and neither do I. I base my views / critique a player based on ON ICE PERFORMANCE. if you don't like that, ignore my posts, but I refuse to get dragged into the pointless discussion of "relative to expectations based on contract terms"

i hate the way Briere plays .... bad defensively, lazy & takes bad penalties .... ON THE ICE, not "relative to expectations based on contract terms"
On ice performance and what the players are paid are directly linked. If you don't think Briere is a candidate to be bought out because he doesn't perform at the level a $6.5M player is expected to perfrom at, then I am talking to the wall.

If Briere was making $1M/year, no one would be talking about buying him out. His contract has a direct impact on his role with the Flyers.

Quote:
it sure looks like you are saying "for the amount of money he makes, Bryz should be playing better"

if you are not saying that:
1. my apologies
2. explain what you do mean
The same thing that I said above goes for Bryz. I have been reasonably happy with Bryz this year, but his numbers are average. Because the NHL has a salary cap, an individual's high salary and extended periods of average play do not bode well for a team's success with that individual... and that individual will be bought out within the next two years if he has both of those qualifiers.

What I mean in this argument is that Bryz needs to put up very good numbers to avoid being bought out by the end of the 2013/14 season. No matter how either of us believe he is performing, an extended period of average numbers and his salary combination will almost certainly lead to a buyout.

His first season was average; his second season is trending towards average; his third season may be his last in Philly unless he puts up consistently good numbers. He is paid like an elite goalie, but his numbers are average. It doesn't matter what I expect from him but you can bet that the Flyers are expecting elite play for his contract.

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03-01-2013, 08:16 PM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
On ice performance and what the players are paid are directly linked.
maybe for you, not me. what you or I might think about Briere [or any Flyer] and 'expectations relevant to contract' DOESN'T MATTER:

ya wanna know why ? HOMER AINT ASKING US, he's the GM. we have NO control over it.

that's why i just evaluate ON ICE performance, the "expectations" you might have, are not necessarily HOMER'S expectations, so it's a USELESS debate. nobody will ever agree. not that it matters, Homer aint consulting us !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
What I mean in this argument is that Bryz needs to put up very good numbers to avoid being bought out by the end of the 2013/14 season.
Then you and i agree that we are having different discussions.

you can debate the goaltending's 'expectations relevant to contract' with those ppl into that thing. that excludes me.

and i'll state my views that are SOLELY about his ON ICE play, not related or skewed by 'expectations relevant to contract'. i dont care about cap hit, being bought out, or anything but 'was it a bad goal / good game, bad game, i like his play, he looks terrible and the like'

take care & thx for clearing it up

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03-01-2013, 08:37 PM
  #162
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I'm beginning to think you honestly don't understand the salary cap. Either that or you're purposefully ignoring it.

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03-01-2013, 08:39 PM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
maybe for you, not me. what you or I might think about Briere [or any Flyer] and 'expectations relevant to contract' DOESN'T MATTER:

ya wanna know why ? HOMER AINT ASKING US, he's the GM. we have NO control over it.

that's why i just evaluate ON ICE performance, the "expectations" you might have, are not necessarily HOMER'S expectations, so it's a USELESS debate. nobody will ever agree. not that it matters, Homer aint consulting us !!


Then you and i agree that we are having different discussions.

you can debate the goaltending's 'expectations relevant to contract' with those ppl into that thing. that excludes me.

and i'll state my views that are SOLELY about his ON ICE play, not related or skewed by 'expectations relevant to contract'. i dont care about cap hit, being bought out, or anything but 'was it a bad goal / good game, bad game, i like his play, he looks terrible and the like'

take care & thx for clearing it up
This makes no sense. Why talk about on ice performance? It's not like Laviolette is asking us for advice about line combinations. Why talk about any of it?

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03-01-2013, 08:47 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
This makes no sense. Why talk about on ice performance? It's not like Laviolette is asking us for advice about line combinations. Why talk about any of it?
He's not even talking about on ice performance. He's ignoring everyone else but Bryz, and since the set of players he watches play is a singleton, he touts Bryz as the undisputed MVP. For good measure, he then defines Briere to be strictly inferior.

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03-01-2013, 09:03 PM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryker View Post
He's not even talking about on ice performance. He's ignoring everyone else but Bryz, and since the set of players he watches play is a singleton, he touts Bryz as the undisputed MVP. For good measure, he then defines Briere to be strictly inferior.
Fun numbers (Yes, I realize there are flaws here due to small sample sizes for a few goalies, and the very large pool of NHL forwards, many of whom are callups):

Briere is ranked at 115 for points. That means only 15% of NHL players are producing more than him.

Bryzgalov is ranked at 47 for save percentage. That means 63% of goalies with an NHL start have better numbers.

I still buy out Briere first, though.

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03-01-2013, 09:07 PM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
This makes no sense. Why talk about on ice performance?
you don't see any merit in a discussion about:

"I think it was a bad goal, Bryz sucks"
"I think it was a great game, goaltending isn't our issue"
"good to see Bryz moving so well"
"he needs to be better on penalty shots"

i think those discussions / debates are fun & that's why I am here, to have those discussions.

what i have NO INTEREST IN, are these debates:

"I think it was a bad goal, Bryz sucks, based on my expectations that I think a contract like his carries ... which of course, varies from person to person"
"I think it was a great game, goaltending isn't our issue, based on my expectations that I think a contract like his carries ... which of course, varies from person to person"
"good to see Bryz moving so well, based on my expectations that I think a contract like his carries ... which of course, varies from person to person"
"he needs to be better on penalty shots, based on my expectations that I think a contract like his carries ... which of course, varies from person to person"

i'm NOT saying people can't have those discussions, it's a public forum, of course, go for it.

you're just gonna havta have them without me, thats all. no biggie

i have suggested in the past an "On Ice Goaltending Performance Thread" - one thats not cluttered with "based on my expectations that I think a contract like his carries ... which of course, varies from person to person" to just discuss goals against, technique & discuss on ice only matters.

might be time to start a 2013 iteration. or, maybe you guys just let these "on ice only" opinions co-exist in this thread ... this IS the "All Purpose Goaltending Thread " .. and that includes my "on ice only" aspect of it.

if you don't like that my opinions are not skewed by contracts, put me on your ignore list .... just like i have done with those who insists on slanting their view with "expectations based on a contract" - which, of course, is VERY subjective .... varies from person to person - there is no known list of Homer's expectations, so everybody inventing their own, only clouds the issue further


Last edited by Bernie Parent 1974: 03-01-2013 at 09:32 PM.
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03-01-2013, 09:09 PM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
you don't see any merit in a discussion about:

"I think it was a bad goal, Bryz sucks"
"I think it was a great game, goaltending isn't our issue"
"good to see Bryz moving so well"
"he needs to be better on penalty shots"

i think those discussions / debates are fun & that's why I am here, to have those discussions.

what i have NO INTEREST IN, are these debates:

"I think it was a bad goal, Bryz sucks, based on my expectations that I think a contract like his carries ... which of course, varies from person to person"
"I think it was a great game, goaltending isn't our issue, based on my expectations that I think a contract like his carries ... which of course, varies from person to person"
"good to see Bryz moving so well, based on my expectations that I think a contract like his carries ... which of course, varies from person to person"
"he needs to be better on penalty shots, based on my expectations that I think a contract like his carries ... which of course, varies from person to person"


i'm saying people can't have those discussions, it's a public forum, of course, go for it.

you're just gonna havta have them without me, thats all. no biggie

i have suggested in the past an "On Ice Goaltending Performance Thread" - one thats not cluttered with "based on my expectations that I think a contract like his carries ... which of course, varies from person to person" to just discuss goals against, technique & discuss on ice only matters.

might be time to start a 2013 iteration
I hate to break it to you, but this has been an integral part of NHL discussion for the upper end of a decade now. It's not gonna go away.

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03-01-2013, 09:10 PM
  #168
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Quote:
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He's not even talking about on ice performance. He's ignoring everyone else but Bryz
"The All-Purpose Goaltending Thread "

i'm discussing Bryz's on ice performance. this seems to be the right thread.

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03-01-2013, 09:59 PM
  #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
maybe for you, not me. what you or I might think about Briere [or any Flyer] and 'expectations relevant to contract' DOESN'T MATTER:

ya wanna know why ? HOMER AINT ASKING US, he's the GM. we have NO control over it.

that's why i just evaluate ON ICE performance, the "expectations" you might have, are not necessarily HOMER'S expectations, so it's a USELESS debate. nobody will ever agree. not that it matters, Homer aint consulting us
The bolded phrase is one of the silliest arguments I've ever heard in my life. The fact that Holmgren doesn't consult us doesn't mean debating about something is useless. If it did, then the same argument can be used to classify pretty much every single one of your discussions about Bryzgalov as "useless".

Peter Laviolette isn't asking your advice on Bryz's performance or the performance of Danny Briere, whether he should/shouldn't be out there in certain situations, etc. Your opinions of Bryzgalov have no effect on how many games her starts. Likewise, your (and others) whining that Bryz is starting too many games is pointless. Laviolette doesn't care about what you have to say.

And extending that a bit further, your opinions on whether or not a goal was "soft", or how Bryz can be in a better position to stop a certain goal are irrelevant. Jeff Reese doesn't consult with you or read HFboards. Neither does Bryz. So you talking about soft goals or goalie technique is pointless.

And as an extension of all of this, you as a fan don't really have any impact on the Flyers' players, coaches, GM, etc. And if the Flyers win a game or a title, you don't get paid, you don't get a trophy or a ring, you personally didn't accomplish anything; therefore, "rooting" for the Flyers to win is really pointless.

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03-01-2013, 10:22 PM
  #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
you don't see any merit in a discussion about:

"I think it was a bad goal, Bryz sucks"
I hate to break it to you, but the phrase "I think" means that people have differing opinions / standards / expectations of what a "bad goal" is. Thus any discussion of Bryz's on ice performance is inherently based on differing expectations. So, if you think it's useless to discuss what someone's expectations are for performance from a goalie with a 5.67M cap hit, then your discussions of whether or not something was a "bad goal" are just as meritless / pointless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
"I think it was a great game, goaltending isn't our issue"
The phrase "that was a great game" is open to some serious interpretation. My opinion on a great game may certainly be different than yours. For me, a great game is a win where the team looks impressive, but my definition of "impressive" is subjective and is based on my expectations and is likely different than yours. For others, any win is a "great game". And for others still, your team can lose and it can still be a "great game". This whole discussion is based on expectations and therefore by your own standards is meritless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
"good to see Bryz moving so well"
What qualifies as good movement? This is another statement based on expectations. Are we comparing Bryz's movement to that of his movement 3 years ago? 1 year ago? Or are we comparing Bryz's movement to that of other goalies in the NHL? If we're comparing his movement to other goalies, do we use the 6'0 and under ones too, or only the ones of comparable size to Bryzgalov? All these different expectations, this discussion is meritless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
"he needs to be better on penalty shots"
This is again, an opinion. Based on your expectations, your might think Bryz is fine at penalty shots while I think he's been terrible. Some people might expect him to save every penalty shot / shootout shot. Others might be happy with any amount of saves that lead to a win. Still others might evaluate each penalty shot individually and might be OK with the ones going in where the shooter pulled a sweet move. Whether or not you feel Bryz needs to be better at penalty shots is based on your expectations, therefore by your standards, this debate is again meritless/ pointless / useless.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
i have suggested in the past an "On Ice Goaltending Performance Thread" - one thats not cluttered with "based on my expectations that I think a contract like his carries ... which of course, varies from person to person" to just discuss goals against, technique & discuss on ice only matters.

might be time to start a 2013 iteration. or, maybe you guys just let these "on ice only" opinions co-exist in this thread ... this IS the "All Purpose Goaltending Thread " .. and that includes my "on ice only" aspect of it.

if you don't like that my opinions are not skewed by contracts, put me on your ignore list .... just like i have done with those who insists on slanting their view with "expectations based on a contract" - which, of course, is VERY subjective .... varies from person to person - there is no known list of Homer's expectations, so everybody inventing their own, only clouds the issue further
Why do you think you are so special that you deserve your own thread? The only problem here in this thread is that you continue to respond to people by saying "The Salary Cap doesn't matter" or statements of the like. If someone responds to one of your posts with an argument about Bryz needing to be bought out, or his cap hit being aBryzmal, YOU HAVE THE CHOICE TO IGNORE IT. You continually choose to respond and then after being beaten down in an argument, you say you choose not to talk about it anymore because the salary cap doesn't matter and anyone discussing expectations based on cap hit is having a meritless and pointless discussion.

Lather, rinse, repeat the same pattern of you angrily responding to comments about Bryz for 8 entire threads worth of material and you have in a nutshell what "The All-Purpose Goaltending Thread" is all about.

I'm quite aware of the ignore option. I think many other posters are. I have no problem reading what you write and responding though, because I find you somewhat entertaining / amusing. If you find talking about the cap frustrating, you have the power to ignore users, either by blocking their posts, or by exercising will-power and deciding not to angrily respond to them. Unfortunately however, rather than exercising those options, you think you deserve your own little thread or that everyone else should just stop responding to your posts.

That's not how a message board works.

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03-01-2013, 10:25 PM
  #171
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This is again, an opinion
of course everything here is opinion.

but to then cloud the opinions with "considering my expectations that I feel a contract of that amount should carry" is something that doesn't interest me.

so, i put those people on my ignore list

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03-01-2013, 10:37 PM
  #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
of course everything here is opinion.

but to then cloud the opinions with "considering my expectations that I feel a contract of that amount should carry" is something that doesn't interest me.

so, i put those people on my ignore list
Then you need to put essentially everyone on your ignore list, because you're the only one who lives in the alternate reality that cap hit and/or actual salary paid shouldn't alter your expectations of a player.

I really don't understand how you can ignore this. At your place of work, is your output compared to your total cost not important to your employer? If your boss could hire someone slightly less productive than you, but for only a fraction of the cost, they would do so in a heartbeat.

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03-01-2013, 10:47 PM
  #173
WeekendAtBernies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
of course everything here is opinion.

but to then cloud the opinions with "considering my expectations that I feel a contract of that amount should carry" is something that doesn't interest me.

so, i put those people on my ignore list
You're entitled to your opinion and you're certainly entitled to adding people you don't want to discuss things with to your ignore list, or just ignoring their comments in this one isolated thread.

But you don't need your own personal thread and I think you know that. You personally decide what you do/don't want to discuss. This whole most recent blow-up wouldn't have started if you just ignored certain peoples' comments. You chose to respond, you continue to choose to respond. I'd like to be able to continue discussing things with you because you make some good points and being a goalie yourself I like reading some of the things you post about technique, but I can't promise I'm going to stop talking about Bryz and the salary cap and if you post something I disagree with, I'm likely going to respond and I might even bring up the cap / buying Bryz out, as will the majority of people here. Going forward, I'd hope you'd be mature enough to ignore that comment or respond civilly. And if you respond civilly to a comment about the salary cap, then realize that you're opening yourself up to a bunch more comments about the cap and Bryz's cap implications and how the cap affects how people view his play. If you just ignore people responding about the cap, eventually they'll ignore you and everything will be civil.

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03-01-2013, 11:14 PM
  #174
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let me get this strait..

if someone has a different view from yours bp74, u put them on ignore?

is that correct? if so why are u on a discussion board?

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:25 PM
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
Great long post.
See edit to your quoted post I fully agree with this. He's using subjective terms and terms that require a value judgement to describe Bryz's performance, yet when other people do so he claims he's only discussing on ice performance, but that others are also trying to include other factors. He doesn't realize he's doing the same thing and that you can't discuss performance without having a preconceived notion of what the norm for a particular evaluation is. The only difference between him and the others are that they are actually not blind to the fact that they take into account other factors, such as the cap, his hit under it and the play of an average NHL goalie.

Bernie, realize everyone else is also discussing "only on-ice performance" (by your definition), it's just that their notions of good and bad are different. But the subject matter is the same.

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