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Daly on impact of realignment on expansion, negotiations w/NHLPA

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Old
03-01-2013, 02:15 PM
  #176
Crayton
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
In theory, interesting. So, to explain how it works:
Top 16 by points qualify.
#1 overall seed plays lowest seed within one Time Zone
#2 overall seed plays lowest seed left within one Time Zone
Continue. If you get to where no such matchups exist, then expand to 2 TZs for that team. Finally, if you must, ETZ v PTZ.

Round 2 does a total re-seed and do the above process again

Round 3: PW Trophy is contested by the 2 easternmost remaining teams, CC by the 2 westernmost remaining teams.

I like it, but I can't see the League and the PA thinking this far outside of the box.
Pretty far out of the box; the number of league-wide "wild-card" berths (4 or all 16) can be determined by the big-wigs.

As far as the process, you would not go down the list of teams, but would rather group teams by pairs of TZs (starting from the West), pairing teams closest to #1 vs. #16.

Here is an example seeding for the second round; this is a difficult example because there are 2 CTZ and 2 MTZ teams but an odd number of PTZ and ETZ teams.
1 Chicago
2 Montreal
3 Anaheim
4 Boston
5 Pittsburgh
6 Phoenix
7 Colorado
8 St. Louis

The quoted process of starting at #1 and going down would result in this:
1 Chicago vs. 8 St. Louis (0 spots away from traditional seeding)
2 Montreal vs. 5 Pittsburgh (2 spots away from traditional seeding)
3 Anaheim vs. 7 Colorado (1 spot away from traditional seeding)
4 Boston vs . 6 Phoenix (2 TZs! 1 spot away from traditional seeding)

But now we will start by grouping teams by timezones: P+M
3 Anaheim
6 Phoenix
7 Colorado
We need to leave 1 MTZ team remaining. Anaheim and Phoenix are closest to 1v8,2v7... so Colorado is left.

M+C
1 Chicago
7 Colorado
8 St. Louis
We need to leave 1 CTZ team remaining, so Chicago and Colorado are paired.

The final pairings look like this:
1 Chicago vs. 7 Colorado (1 spot away from traditional seeding)
2 Montreal vs. 8 St. Louis (1 spot away from traditional seeding)
3 Anaheim vs. 6 Phoenix (0 spots away from tradtional seeding)
4 Boston vs. 5 Pittsburgh (0 spots away from tradtional seeding)

And so there are minimal (zero) multi-TZ series and minimal deviation from traditional 1v8 seeding.

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Old
03-01-2013, 02:22 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
I agree. That's why I put "I can't see the League or the PA going for it." Plus, it sounds contrived. Even though here on the BOHB, we all know that $$ and therefore TZ considerations are very important, the League will never announce anything if they to do so and say "We did this for revenue." That is bad optics. So, it will be something else. They will hide away the need for TZ considerations in a 7/8/7/8 situation with something about competitive equity or something.
But even from a competitive point of view. I think it was like 8 vs 9 and 11 vs 12

Its all a moot point anyway, looks like there is an agreement in place

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03-01-2013, 02:26 PM
  #178
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Personally, I continue to believe the whole travel issue is severely overblown. There is no evidence to suggest that the potential for an occasional cross-continental crossover ought to be avoided like the plague.

Really - if travel was such an issue, the Eastern Conference would be dominating the Stanley Cup Finals for the last three decades and on that basis perhaps you could justify the uneven playoff odds. But Eastern domination just isn't happening, look it up - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._Cup_champions - from the 1981 realignment to the 1993 realignment, the conferences won the Cup six times each, and since the 1993 realignment the West has won ten Cups, the East has won eight Cups.

No wonder Eastern Conference fans are p***ed - they have every right to be. This playoff format sucks.


Last edited by Rupertslander: 03-01-2013 at 02:43 PM.
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Old
03-01-2013, 02:28 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
But even from a competitive point of view. I think it was like 8 vs 9 and 11 vs 12

Its all a moot point anyway, looks like there is an agreement in place
Do you have a link for what the agreement is?

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Old
03-01-2013, 02:30 PM
  #180
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One thing is for certain...

With the proposed divisional alignment giving 2 extra teams to the east...I know a few things about the upcoming season:

1) If Phoenix moves at all, the NHL doesn't have them going to Tor2/Mkm/Que. Otherwise they'd not have already proposed an alignment where the east already outweighs the west by a 16:14 margin. PHO going east would make it 17:13...and that's worse than you have now.

2) If Phoenix moves, it'll be to Seattle, without any impact to the current proposed alignment.

3) If Phoenix doesn't move, you can almost guarantee Seattle will arrive in expansion to make it a 16:15 split.

Interesting times ahead. I'll bet we're years away from any sort of "final" alignment that endures for any significant length of time. Entirely too much fluxuation/change in this league currently.

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03-01-2013, 02:32 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Rupertslander View Post
Personally, I continue to believe the whole travel issue is severely overblown. There is no evidence to suggest that the potential for an occasional cross-continental crossover ought to be avoided like the plague.
I far from believe it is travel. I completely believe it is to maximize start times for games and not having the Detroit/Phoenix and Detroit/San Jose TV issues that plagued their first two rounds in 2010 and 2011. And for Detroit (and Columbus), it's definitely about removing a huge chunk of their 16 games they play two or more hours away per season, so that the TV ratings, and in turn their TV contracts can be maximized.

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03-01-2013, 02:34 PM
  #182
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The resolution to this realignment saga is probably drawing near. So I’ll just throw this out here; it’s been a long time since I’ve suggested such an alignment.

Conference AConference B
NORTHWESTSOUTHWEST
SeattleSan Jose
VancouverLos Angeles
CalgaryAnaheim
EdmontonColorado
WinnipegDallas
DIVISION ? DIVISION ?
St LouisMinnesota
NashvilleChicago
ColumbusDetroit
WashingtonPhiladelphia
CarolinaPittsburgh
NORTHEASTATLANTIC
BuffaloNY Rangers
TorontoNY Islanders
OttawaNew Jersey
MontrealTampa Bay
BostonFlorida

What I like about it is the balance between the Conferences. What I’ve come to dislike about it is that it maintains two 3-TZ Divisions.
Also, we’ve discovered that the far-west teams want more games against the east. This alignment does that. While at the same time only adding 4 far-west teams to both Conferences, thus not overburdening the fragile eastern teams with too many far-western teams in their Conference.


* Still believe the 3-Conference alignment is the best fit.

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03-01-2013, 02:41 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Grudy0 View Post
I far from believe it is travel. I completely believe it is to maximize start times for games and not having the Detroit/Phoenix and Detroit/San Jose TV issues that plagued their first two rounds in 2010 and 2011. And for Detroit (and Columbus), it's definitely about removing a huge chunk of their 16 games they play two or more hours away per season, so that the TV ratings, and in turn their TV contracts can be maximized.
So, for the sake of mitigating minor inconvenience for the networks, the League is willing to put the Eastern teams at an indefinite competitive disadvantage. The "pluses" do not equal the "minuses" for the Eastern teams.

But, to correct myself, it is the playoff format that sucks, not the alignment per se.

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03-01-2013, 02:42 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Rupertslander View Post
Personally, I continue to believe the whole travel issue is severely overblown.
Some of it's travel, or else the eastern teams wouldn't hold onto that particular advantage like grim death. Substitute a different eastern team or two every year for Detroit and/or Columbus. The results could be entertaining.

Like was said, the TV start time is big too. Put an eastern team(not Detroit, Columbus, or Toronto) in a division with one team from the CTZ, and another 3 teams from the MTZ, or 3 teams from the central, and one from the mountain, and see how that works out.

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Old
03-01-2013, 02:44 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Rupertslander View Post
So, for the sake of mitigating minor inconvenience for the networks, the League is willing to put the Eastern teams at an indefinite competitive disadvantage. The "pluses" do not equal the "minuses" for the Eastern teams.

But, to correct myself, it is the playoff format that sucks, not the alignment per se.
Only if those teams vote for it.

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Old
03-01-2013, 02:44 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Do you have a link for what the agreement is?
No, just the tweet fromkypreos saying an agreement could come today.

I'm guessing it will just be what nhl.com was reporting. Detroit and columbus to the east with two 7 trek western divisions and two 8 team eastern divisions. Opportunity to reevaluate in a few years.

The next thread should be speculate on relocation and expansion based on these divisions.

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Old
03-01-2013, 02:47 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
Some of it's travel, or else the eastern teams wouldn't hold onto that particular advantage like grim death.
If it is such a huge "advantage" how is it that Western Conference teams have managed to win 10 of the last 16 Cups?

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03-01-2013, 02:48 PM
  #188
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Only if those teams vote for it.
Which is far from a given, God willing...

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Old
03-01-2013, 02:57 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Rupertslander View Post
So, for the sake of mitigating minor inconvenience for the networks, the League is willing to put the Eastern teams at an indefinite competitive disadvantage. The "pluses" do not equal the "minuses" for the Eastern teams.

But, to correct myself, it is the playoff format that sucks, not the alignment per se.
But this version is almost no different than the version that was approved by the NHL in December 2011. The difference was that there were eight teams in each conference out west and seven in each conference in the east. That's flipped with the last proposal a couple days ago announced by the NHL, and you think the NHL has a problem with that?

That's why I like my alignment and matrix scenario. Everything is even.

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03-01-2013, 02:59 PM
  #190
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If it is such a huge "advantage" how is it that Western Conference teams have managed to win 10 of the last 16 Cups?
Because everyone is a professional, and they'll do what they have to do. Detroit has been the elite franchise in the league over the last 15 years.

Listen to the people who do it though, and they've all said that travel is an issue. How big of an advantage is it? That's up for debate. Who likes crossing time zones all the time though? Who doesn't like short trips? Who doesn't like going back to their own home more often? Where do most of the big name free agents go?

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Old
03-01-2013, 03:04 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Rupertslander View Post
Which is far from a given, God willing...
@RealKyper

Hearing #NHL #NHLPA will soon announce an agreement in principle on realignment. Players appear comfortable enough moving forward.

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Old
03-01-2013, 04:16 PM
  #192
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I hope detroit comes east. That's all. I guess columbus too.

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Old
03-01-2013, 09:23 PM
  #193
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Does anyone know what happened to the previous scheduling idea where every team would play against every other team in the league twice? Will teams still play every other team? Because that still seems like a very good idea - it is really nice to watch cross-conference matches. More often than once every 4 years.

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03-01-2013, 09:51 PM
  #194
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Does anyone know what happened to the previous scheduling idea where every team would play against every other team in the league twice? Will teams still play every other team? Because that still seems like a very good idea - it is really nice to watch cross-conference matches. More often than once every 4 years.
Once every 2 years!!!

Why do people always negatively exaggerate that?

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03-01-2013, 10:48 PM
  #195
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Ok, guys, hear me out. Trying to work within parameters that most want, even if it's not what I want.
- To start with, that means 2 x every team in the League.
- Secondly, truly, you must have an even number in the games between teams competing directly in the Standings. But damn it, none of you think that Division opponents should play Conference opponents the same number of times (regardless of the fact that the first two Rounds of the Playoffs would still be primarily Divisional. So if everyone insists that Conference games against must be less than Division games against, and since Division Standings will be somewhat more important than Conference Standings, then the even number of games against teams will be in the Division, odd number against will be in the Conference. Hope your following that, but I'll demonstrate below.
- Now thirdly, with only 3 games against Conference opponents, and with an increased number of games against the other Conference, and also with primarily Divisional matchups in the first two Rounds of the Playoffs... I believe that's a fair degree of improvement for Detroit even to stay in the West and thus give balanced Conferences (as well as a space for Quebec City if so needed).


EDIT:
DAMN IT, it can't be done. There has to be at least one Division matchup that can't have an equal home-and-home. I hate this alignment and schedule format!!!!

Okay, here's what it looks like in numbers:
7-team Divisions
12 games = 6 x 2 (even home-and-home against teams in the Division)
16 games = 4 x 4 (even home-and-home against teams in the Division)
----
24 games = 3 x 8
----
30 games = 2 x 15
82 games

8-team Divisions
6 games = 6 x 1 (even home-and-home against teams in the Division)
5 games = 5 x 1 (unfortunately can't be an equal home-and-home)
20 games = 4 x 5 (even home-and-home against teams in the Division)
----
21 games = 3 x 7
----
30 games = 2 x 15
82 games

Now for the Playoffs, again with the objective of having as few crossovers as possible (especially with Detroit having to stay in the West, and with the West having 4 TZs).

NO WILDCARDS! Just a pure top-8 in the Conference, but with 3 guaranteed spots in all Divisions.
If there's no wildcards, then the Playoff matchups are simply the highest Divisional seed vs the lowest Divisional seed.
3 Possibilites:
1 vs 4
1 vs 3
1 vs 5
With the 1 vs 3 and 1 vs 5, the middle seeds crossover. If the #2 seed in the 1 vs 3 Division wins its series, then the 2nd Round has Zero Crossovers. If the #3 seed in the 1 vs 5 Division wins, then there will again be One crossover matchup in the 2nd Round.
Also, with this format, each Division will have a team in the Final 4.

I think these are the best-case scenarios, to give the PA what it wants, to reduce the burden on Detroit having to stay in the West, and to have as few crossovers as possible.

Oh, and the alignment:
Western ConferenceEastern Conference
PACIFICATLANTIC
EdmontonNY Rangers
CalgaryNY Islanders
VancouverNew Jersey
San JosePhiladelphia
Los AngelesPittsburgh
AnaheimWashington
PhoenixTampa Bay
ColoradoFlorida
MIDWESTCENTRAL
WinnipegCarolina
MinnesotaColumbus
St LouisBuffalo
DallasToronto
NashvilleOttawa
ChicagoMontreal
DetroitBoston
**


Last edited by MoreOrr: 03-02-2013 at 01:09 AM.
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Old
03-01-2013, 11:52 PM
  #196
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Flip Detroit with Columbus and it's fine.

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03-01-2013, 11:55 PM
  #197
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Flip Detroit with Columbus and it's fine.
No, unfortunately it's not. The ****ing schedule matrix doesn't work out. I'm working on revising it. Damn, the schedule is a royal pain with unbalanced anything!


** Ok, it's been corrected. I hope this time IS correct.

****! NO, not yet!

LOL... Is the 3rd time the charm????

The 4th time was the charm. Why? Because it simply can't be done the way I wanted.


Last edited by MoreOrr: 03-02-2013 at 01:00 AM.
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03-02-2013, 12:11 AM
  #198
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7 team divisions: 6 vs own division, 2 vs every other team

8 team divisions: 6 vs 3 of division and 5 vs 4 of division, 2 vs everyone else.

Use the division proposed by the nhl based on time zones.

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03-02-2013, 12:21 AM
  #199
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No, unfortunately it's not. The ****ing schedule matrix doesn't work out. I'm working on revising it. Damn, the schedule is a royal pain with unbalanced anything!
More, let me help you, even if I don't agree:

Start with 30 vs the other conference (Hold this because you may need to adjust it at the end, and you are less concerned about this than any other)

7-teamers: vs other division = 3 x 8 = 24 games. You now have 28 games left.
Vs own division: 4 x 6 = 24, so you want 6x2 + 4x4 = 28.

8-teamers: vs other division = 3 x 7 = 21 games. You now have 31 games left. 4 x 7 = 28, right? So, you want 4x5 + 6x2 = 32. That's one too many, so subtract one game from the 8-team division in the other conference.

That doesn't seem so bad to me. What's harder is working out how to evenly distribute that 4x5 and 6x2 over the years. There may be a fudge factor there....

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03-02-2013, 12:31 AM
  #200
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More, let me help you, even if I don't agree:

Start with 30 vs the other conference (Hold this because you may need to adjust it at the end, and you are less concerned about this than any other)

7-teamers: vs other division = 3 x 8 = 24 games. You now have 28 games left.
Vs own division: 4 x 6 = 24, so you want 6x2 + 4x4 = 28.

8-teamers: vs other division = 3 x 7 = 21 games. You now have 31 games left. 4 x 7 = 28, right? So, you want 4x5 + 6x2 = 32. That's one too many, so subtract one game from the 8-team division in the other conference.

That doesn't seem so bad to me. What's harder is working out how to evenly distribute that 4x5 and 6x2 over the years. There may be a fudge factor there....
I've fixed it, a bit different from yours. Have a look, and let me know what you think.

FIXING IT AGAIN. GRRRRRRRR.

THERE!


Last edited by MoreOrr: 03-02-2013 at 12:46 AM.
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