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Bylsma/coaching staff discussion thread II

View Poll Results: So can Bylsma still lead them to the promised land?
Sure why not, Bylsma’s system is fine. The team will win another cup with him 40 33.33%
Nah, Bylsma has a better chance of winning dancing with the stars than another cup 80 66.67%
Voters: 120. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-24-2013, 01:10 AM
  #326
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Kunitz has earned all the time he's gotten after the first handful of games this season (he's tied for 13th in league scoring this year, man ),
Gaborik was a 40 goal scorer last season and he got benched in the playoffs for playing lazy and not taking care of the puck. Say what you want about Torts, but he got his team further than DB last season.

Last week Torts benched Richards and tonight he benched Gaborik again.

I'm not saying Torts is a better coach, but at least he isn't afraid of making his stars accountable.

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and Kennedy wasn't anything close to a reason we lost vs. NJ or Philly. He had zero penalties and exactly one giveaway in those 3 games.
I didn't blame those two for those losses. I said a lack of team discipline cost them, which is my entire point.

If no vets are being held accountable for their poor play, and in fact being rewarded, what kind of message does that send? They know DB won't bench them... There are no repercussions for selfish, undisciplined play.

Oh no, they might get another "talking to" and some PP time to think about things. *GULP*

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You know who was by far the most undisciplined Pens player in those games? Malkin. 5 minor penalties in those 3 games, and NJ's GWG in the 1st game was scored on one of them. If he truly wanted to send a message about the importance of discipline, he'd be benching the guy with the team leading 30 PIMs, not the guy with 4.
What's Malkin have to worry about? He knows DB won't even bench guys like TK, so he is free to casually turn the puck over and take stupid penalty after stupid penalty. Once again, my entire point.

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Like I said, Babcock is sticking with his vets the same way in Detroit, and he has more promising and effective replacement options than we have.
Bro, Babcock recently benched his entire second line for well over a period in a big loss to the Ducks just two weeks ago.

A couple of seasons back he benched Hudler after just seven or eight games and Hudler had put up his best career numbers with the Wings previously. He wasn't playing any worse than Kunitz did.

Babcock is not a guy who is afraid to send a message.

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I never said DB was playing his best players, I said he was giving a vet the opportunity to find his game while we're winning. The fact is that Vitale's competition when we have a full roster is Jeffrey on the 4th line, not TK on the 3rd.
They don't have a healthy roster. Will TK or Vitale be in for the TB game?

We both know what the answer is.

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02-24-2013, 01:53 AM
  #327
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TK was benched last game after his turnovers. He only got back in the game after Malkin's injury made it more of a necessity.

Torts is almost done in NY - his welcome is pretty much worn out. Add in the fact that they have the league's worst PP (and it looks absolutely horrible) and I don't see him being there for more than another season or two.

I do think they can win with Bylsma. It will be easier if they don't face Philly or NJ (and even then I would blame lack of composure over systems vs Philly... for NJ we're only going off regular season matchups which doesn't really matter in this context) but can definitely still be done if the team is healthy and gets some luck.

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02-24-2013, 02:57 AM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Nietzsche Zone Play View Post
TK was benched last game after his turnovers. He only got back in the game after Malkin's injury made it more of a necessity.

Torts is almost done in NY - his welcome is pretty much worn out. Add in the fact that they have the league's worst PP (and it looks absolutely horrible) and I don't see him being there for more than another season or two.

I do think they can win with Bylsma. It will be easier if they don't face Philly or NJ (and even then I would blame lack of composure over systems vs Philly... for NJ we're only going off regular season matchups which doesn't really matter in this context) but can definitely still be done if the team is healthy and gets some luck.
Yeah, I think he did make a nice play to keep the puck in the offensive zone on the Jeffrey goal. It was a pretty dreadful performance for him before that though.

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03-02-2013, 01:12 AM
  #329
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http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=656780

Very interesting article here, with a few choice segments below on Therrien-accountability from Josh Gorges:

"It doesn't matter who you are or who you think you are, you're held to a standard that the entire team is held to," Canadiens defenseman Josh Gorges said. "If you're not going to buy into it and do what's asked of you in accordance with the team, then you're not going to play. He's shown that and he's delivered that and he's stayed true to it and he's been fair with it."
...
"Most of the guys were here the previous couple of years and we didn't like the way things were going, didn't like the direction the team was going and the way we were playing," he said. "Part of it was us talking to the coach before the season started and telling him the issues we had and that we wanted corrected as a group. He's a guy that's willing to enforce it, and not just say it. Saying it is one thing, every coach says it, every player says it [and] everyone knows it.

"But you can say it, and then you can actually enforce it, which is totally different. We've learned from a couple of different examples this season, we all know that's the case. When it's put on somebody and it's put on hard, it's not easy for that person, and it's not even easy sometimes for teammates to see it. But you sit there and say to yourself, 'OK, I'm going to do my job, I'd better buy in to what's going on, I'd better believe in the group first. If I do, I'm going to get rewarded.' So talking is one thing, actually doing it is something else."


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03-02-2013, 09:11 AM
  #330
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Bylsma/Tomlin both need to read this. Immediately.

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03-02-2013, 10:45 AM
  #331
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How about we wait and see what Habs players have to say about him after the honeymoon period, when they're not winning?

If Therrien could read and absorb a few quotes from players under Bylsma and go back in time, maybe he wouldn't have lost the team, his job, and a second opportunity at a Cup:

http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/...#axzz2Kyh6mgU2

My God...it's almost like Bylsma benches and holds people accountable too! He just doesn't put Orpik on the ****ing wing.

The rose-coloured glasses people look at the guy with these days is just embarrassing. He's a good coach to instill work habits in young players, but his act has proven to wear real thin, real quick.

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03-02-2013, 10:55 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
How about we wait and see what Habs players have to say about him after the honeymoon period, when they're not winning?

If Therrien could read and absorb a few quotes from players under Bylsma and go back in time, maybe he wouldn't have lost the team, his job, and a second opportunity at a Cup:

http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/...#axzz2Kyh6mgU2

My God...it's almost like Bylsma benches and holds people accountable too! He just doesn't put Orpik on the ****ing wing.

The rose-coloured glasses people look at the guy with these days is just embarrassing. He's a good coach to instill work habits in young players, but his act has proven to wear real thin, real quick.
I agree. Disco is a great disciplinarian. Fire the players.

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03-02-2013, 10:58 AM
  #333
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I agree. Disco is a great disciplinarian. Fire the players.
I never said that.

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03-02-2013, 10:59 AM
  #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=656780

Very interesting article here, with a few choice segments below on Therrien-accountability from Josh Gorges:

"It doesn't matter who you are or who you think you are, you're held to a standard that the entire team is held to," Canadiens defenseman Josh Gorges said. "If you're not going to buy into it and do what's asked of you in accordance with the team, then you're not going to play. He's shown that and he's delivered that and he's stayed true to it and he's been fair with it."
...
"Most of the guys were here the previous couple of years and we didn't like the way things were going, didn't like the direction the team was going and the way we were playing," he said. "Part of it was us talking to the coach before the season started and telling him the issues we had and that we wanted corrected as a group. He's a guy that's willing to enforce it, and not just say it. Saying it is one thing, every coach says it, every player says it [and] everyone knows it.

"But you can say it, and then you can actually enforce it, which is totally different. We've learned from a couple of different examples this season, we all know that's the case. When it's put on somebody and it's put on hard, it's not easy for that person, and it's not even easy sometimes for teammates to see it. But you sit there and say to yourself, 'OK, I'm going to do my job, I'd better buy in to what's going on, I'd better believe in the group first. If I do, I'm going to get rewarded.' So talking is one thing, actually doing it is something else."
Boom.

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03-02-2013, 11:07 AM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
How about we wait and see what Habs players have to say about him after the honeymoon period, when they're not winning?

If Therrien could read and absorb a few quotes from players under Bylsma and go back in time, maybe he wouldn't have lost the team, his job, and a second opportunity at a Cup:

http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/...#axzz2Kyh6mgU2

My God...it's almost like Bylsma benches and holds people accountable too! He just doesn't put Orpik on the ****ing wing.

The rose-coloured glasses people look at the guy with these days is just embarrassing. He's a good coach to instill work habits in young players, but his act has proven to wear real thin, real quick.
I really respect your opinions on a lot of things and I think I agree with you more often than not, but while your patience on this subject is admirable, I think you are just 100% wrong on this subject.

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03-02-2013, 11:15 AM
  #336
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
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I really respect your opinions on a lot of things and I think I agree with you more often than not, but while your patience on this subject is admirable, I think you are just 100% wrong on this subject.
Wrong about what? That Therrien's act wears thin because of his snarly attitude? That the board glosses over ridiculous decisions he made while coach of the Penguins like playing Orpik at forward?

Or that there is a proven track record of Bylsma holding players accountable, he just isn't barking and benching the board's choices left and right?

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03-02-2013, 11:16 AM
  #337
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post

The rose-coloured glasses people look at the guy with these days is just embarrassing. He's a good coach to instill work habits in young players, but his act has proven to wear real thin, real quick.
A lot of coach's acts wear thin. That's just a commentary on athletes these days not the coaches themselves. Bylsma is liked by the players but since late last season it's obvious they're all a little too buddy buddy judging by their discipline since that point.

As far as the last sentence, honestly I think that describes Bylsma more than Therrien. I think Bylsma would be a great coach for a young team like the Oilers or say, Florida or something. I think '10-'11 would back me up on that.

Therrien did stuff that drove me nuts, but do you honestly think Bylsma could take that Habs roster and get them to where they are now? Not a chance in hell.

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03-02-2013, 11:19 AM
  #338
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Therrien did stuff that drove me nuts, but do you honestly think Bylsma could take that Habs roster and get them to where they are now? Not a chance in hell.
In all fairness he pretty much did that with the same roster in 2010-11. That kind of season when TK is on your first line is nothing short of a miracle.

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03-02-2013, 11:19 AM
  #339
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lets just trade therrien and Bylsma back and forth every few years. that's the ticket

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03-02-2013, 11:26 AM
  #340
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A lot of coach's acts wear thin. That's just a commentary on athletes these days not the coaches themselves. Bylsma is liked by the players but since late last season it's obvious they're all a little too buddy buddy judging by their discipline since that point.

As far as the last sentence, honestly I think that describes Bylsma more than Therrien. I think Bylsma would be a great coach for a young team like the Oilers or say, Florida or something. I think '10-'11 would back me up on that.

Therrien did stuff that drove me nuts, but do you honestly think Bylsma could take that Habs roster and get them to where they are now? Not a chance in hell.
If we had the Habs roster, I might care about the answer to that hypothetical question. But we have the Pens roster, and we don't need to speculate to see how Therrien's methods eventually turn out with them.

There are different approaches to coaching, and it seems the grass is always greener depending on what kind of coach you have, unless you go 82-0. We aren't privy to how players are disciplined under Bylsma, because contrary to what Therrien and many here appear to believe, there are ways other than calling them out in the press or benching them outright.

It's funny. For all the deification Badger Bob gets from long-term Pittsburgh fans, it seems few of them remember how he went about his business.

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03-02-2013, 11:54 AM
  #341
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If we had the Habs roster, I might care about the answer to that hypothetical question. But we have the Pens roster, and we don't need to speculate to see how Therrien's methods eventually turn out with them.

There are different approaches to coaching, and it seems the grass is always greener depending on what kind of coach you have, unless you go 82-0. We aren't privy to how players are disciplined under Bylsma, because contrary to what Therrien and many here appear to believe, there are ways other than calling them out in the press or benching them outright.

It's funny. For all the deification Badger Bob gets from long-term Pittsburgh fans, it seems few of them remember how he went about his business.
If Bylsma even sniffed Badger Bob's clipboard, I'd agree with you. Everyone wants to point out Therrien's move of Orpik to forward, but they forget when he did the same with Whitney. After it happened Whitney played exceptionally well.

Coaches like Therrien absolutely have a shorter shelf life, but again that's due to entitled athletes these days. Guys like Therrien, Hitchcock, Keenan, and Bowman are all cut from the same cloth even though they're not all the same caliber. At the same time they've all gotten great results from rosters that didn't have the two best players in the world to overcome a lot of hardship they'd otherwise have.

When they started sliding under Therrien they had significant injuries and no point presence on the PP. He also juggled lines to a maddening degree, which Bylsma does anyways, and our only discipline problem was a too many men on the ice call every 8-10 games. In all seriousness, maybe I'm just revising history though. That's how I remember it though, and I also remember a much more consistent Malkin.

EDIT: I think only Gonchar was hurt that season, my mistake.


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03-02-2013, 11:56 AM
  #342
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In all fairness he pretty much did that with the same roster in 2010-11. That kind of season when TK is on your first line is nothing short of a miracle.
He deserved the Adams as much if not more than the other nominees no doubt, but that was their roster with 1/3 of the season to go not the whole year then they lost in the first round. Like I said, it was an amazing coaching job, but it is what it is. If the Habs fall off (which they very well might) then I'll give Bylsma that notch on his belt over Therrien.

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03-02-2013, 12:02 PM
  #343
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Everyone seems to love harping about what a horrible decision it was to move Orpik to forward. But if I recall, it was for one (1) game... on the fourth line... and it had the desired effect of motivating Orpik to play better.

I'm not saying I'd ever want Iron Mike back. Just that his methods weren't always ineffective.

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03-02-2013, 12:03 PM
  #344
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If I wasn't lazy, I bet I can find two dozen puff pieces scoured over the 'net about a team thriving with it's new head coach.

I could cut and paste, and it would probably read a lot like the one above.

I watch about 90% of Habs games, so I'm not going to go on name recognition like a lot of you will, and they have a very good team and for once in the last three years, have all their core pieces HEALTHY and on the ice.

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03-02-2013, 12:14 PM
  #345
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If Bylsma even sniffed Badger Bob's clipboard, I'd agree with you.
That's not an argument, UB.

First, their relative quality isn't the point - their styles are. I'm trying to show that you can be a great coach without being a reviled totalitarian.

Second, even if relative quality was the point, there's nothing Johnson achieved in the NHL that Bylsma hasn't.

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Everyone wants to point out Therrien's move of Orpik to forward, but they forget when he did the same with Whitney. After it happened Whitney played exceptionally well.
Well, it must be a shrewd coaching decision to move struggling established defensive defensemen to forward, then. I wonder how it would be received here if Bylsma did it.

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Coaches like Therrien absolutely have a shorter shelf life, but again that's due to entitled athletes these days. Guys like Therrien, Hitchcock, Keenan, and Bowman are all cut from the same cloth even though they're not all the same caliber. At the same time they've all gotten great results from rosters that didn't have the two best players in the world to overcome a lot of hardship they'd otherwise have.
And coaches like Bylsma and Johnson got results using a different method, without severing relations with their players.

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When they started sliding under Therrien they had significant injuries and no point presence on the PP. He also juggled lines to a maddening degree, which Bylsma does anyways, and our only discipline problem was a too many men on the ice call every 8-10 games. In all seriousness, maybe I'm just revising history though. That's how I remember it though, and I also remember a much more consistent Malkin.
Oh right, because Bylsma's never had to deal with injuries or the lack of a point presence. It was painfully obvious that the team simply was not dedicated to playing under Therrien at the end of his tenure.

And for the record, Malkin was a better, more consistent player last year than he ever was under Therrien. It's not the coach's fault every time a player falters any more than it's to the coach's credit every time a player thrives.

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03-02-2013, 12:32 PM
  #346
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What Gorges said sounds great, and for the most part, he's right. HOWEVER, Brian Gionta has been absolute garbage this season for Montreal, and yet he's still on the top line getting 18 1/2 minutes a night, AND he gets to shoot last in the shootout every time. Therrien has held MOST players accountable around here, but not the team captain.

That said, it's not nearly as aggregious as never sitting down Tanner Glass or Craig Adams or Tyler Kennedy or Deryk Engelland this season.

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03-02-2013, 12:35 PM
  #347
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Two words for the "Therrien holds everyone accountable" crowd:

MANGO SALSA.

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03-02-2013, 12:37 PM
  #348
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Would I like to see more out of this team? Yes. Is Byslma anywhere close to closing his job? Not at all. This team has been very successful during his tenure. A Stanley cup. Another very good year where they fell 1 game short of the conference finals. Then a 100 point season without Sid and Geno for the second half of the year. Also, a great regular season last year. They ran into a really good Philly team and lost their composure. This year they lead the division so far. How on earth do you fire this guy? He has nothing but results.

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03-02-2013, 12:43 PM
  #349
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That's how I remember it though, and I also remember a much more consistent Malkin.

EDIT: I think only Gonchar was hurt that season, my mistake.
More consistent? Minus the rookie season he's had 100 points in every full season he's played. If you're talking about the last two playoff series he has been in then 'd agree.

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03-02-2013, 12:47 PM
  #350
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Sounds like Eaton in and Despres out for tonight. Vokoun gets the start which has apparently pissed Fleury off.

Time to see what the odds are on Montreal on Pro-Line tonight.

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