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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM

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03-02-2013, 12:19 PM
  #826
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
The whole notion of "principle" is what got the Avs into this mess. There's a time to be principled, and there's a time to be pragmatic. The Avs acted arrogantly to their own detriment and now they're paying the consequences. $9 million of them in fact.

They could've negotiated a less expensive deal and kept their salary structure largely intact. They didn't, and now they have to deal with the consequences not just with O'Reilly, but their other star players as well.
This principle was for the other star players. That's the whole point, not the money itself, but how they get to the figures that they get to.

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03-02-2013, 12:21 PM
  #827
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Since i can't edit my posts, it dissuades players from coming in with as stubborn of positions if they know that the only way to be super stubborn and "win" is to sit out for a long time, get your name dragged through the mud in the media, and hope for an offer sheet, players are more likely to come in ready to negotiate instead of demanding a dick measuring contest first.

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03-02-2013, 12:40 PM
  #828
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I find it strange that people who were applauding Sherman for not taking a bad deal from another team and waited for the home-run are now criticizing him for not shopping him enough and not trading him.
Hindsight 20-20 and damned if you do damned if you don't.
I have no problems in how Sherman made this go through. His plan got derailed by an idiot.

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03-02-2013, 12:48 PM
  #829
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I find it strange that people who were applauding Sherman for not taking a bad deal from another team and waited for the home-run are now criticizing him for not shopping him enough and not trading him.
Hindsight 20-20 and damned if you do damned if you don't.
I have no problems in how Sherman made this go through. His plan got derailed by an idiot.
So he got outsmarted by an idiot. There you have it.

Why should we not criticize the guy for just sitting there and listening to offers instead of actively shopping him and trying to get a fair trade for the guy?

Again, by just relying on "the code" he let his so-called plan rest on a flimsy, unwritten rule. And it burned him.

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03-02-2013, 01:07 PM
  #830
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I still like the shermanator. Time to start a poll? Fire him or not?

Every single GM in the league is basically heavily criticized by their own fans. I'm not suprised Sherman has his haters too. Anything else would be weird.

But I like him.

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03-02-2013, 01:25 PM
  #831
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I'd be very worried if we fired Sherm the Werm. He and Pracey have brought this team a long way from where they were when he started.

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03-02-2013, 01:36 PM
  #832
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I'd be very worried if we fired Sherm the Werm. He and Pracey have brought this team a long way from where they were when he started.
If it's Pracey who takes over (and it should be) I wouldn't be worried. He's been more responsible for the young talent on this squad moreso than Sherman anyway.

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03-02-2013, 01:39 PM
  #833
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Eh, Sherm's done a good job with trades and negotiations so far. I trust Pracey eye for young talent, but we can't know how well he'd do being the guy who has to go after and pay that talent.

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03-02-2013, 01:39 PM
  #834
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
So he got outsmarted by an idiot. There you have it.

Why should we not criticize the guy for just sitting there and listening to offers instead of actively shopping him and trying to get a fair trade for the guy?

Again, by just relying on "the code" he let his so-called plan rest on a flimsy, unwritten rule. And it burned him.
Well that is not the word I would use. He got burned by an idiot who didn't know the rules.
A hypothetical example:
There is a competition that goes as follows: The first one to hit an airfield with his/her plane gets to keep the plane.
Sherman is thinking "right, I'm ahead here, so If I make a silky-smooth landing here I'll win and get a perfect plane as my prize".
What he didn't know was that Feaster, who was still quite close behind, wanted to win as well. Feaster then thought that he shouldn't care about the landing cause he didn't realize his plane would be destroyed, and instead went full throttle and hit the airfield with full speed while just jumping out beforehand. Of course his plane was wrecked and his prize nullified.

Then when Sherman comes home empty-handed his sponors and fans are pissed at him for not winning.


Again, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

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03-02-2013, 01:55 PM
  #835
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I do not buy for a SECOND that this situation was unavoidable.

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03-02-2013, 02:01 PM
  #836
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I do not buy for a SECOND that this situation was unavoidable.
But Ryan was the problem. Not Sherman. He is a great negotiator which he has shown with all other RFA's. Not his fault that ROR proved to be one of the greediest player in the NHL?

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03-02-2013, 02:07 PM
  #837
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I do not buy for a SECOND that this situation was unavoidable.
Of course it was unavoidable. I'm not saying that. But I would say it the situation they are in now was very improbable.

Look, I'm not trying to say that Sherman is completely a white angel in this. Of course he could've handled this thing better. But I'm still not putting blame on him for this. And I have no problems in how he handled the situation, you know as a whole. We had here an employee who valued himself above everyone else and therefore didn't fit the structure. Now that the plan got derailed, I'm expecting Sherman to make the best out of this.
I really believe he will make the correct choices with ROR going forward. Whatever they might be.

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03-02-2013, 02:27 PM
  #838
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But Ryan was the problem. Not Sherman. He is a great negotiator which he has shown with all other RFA's. Not his fault that ROR proved to be one of the greediest player in the NHL?
What a load of something funky that is. 10-12 teams who were legitimately interested in him, and 4 teams who made him offer sheets, were all prepared to pay him an AAV of $5m per. Feaster just went bonkers with $6.5m in the second year. That tells me that at least 33-40% of the league would have avoided "this situation."

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03-02-2013, 02:33 PM
  #839
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
The whole notion of "principle" is what got the Avs into this mess. There's a time to be principled, and there's a time to be pragmatic. The Avs acted arrogantly to their own detriment and now they're paying the consequences. $9 million of them in fact.

They could've negotiated a less expensive deal and kept their salary structure largely intact. They didn't, and now they have to deal with the consequences not just with O'Reilly, but their other star players as well.
Caving into the demands of a 21 year old with one 55 point season, and giving him $5M is not being pragmatic.

The Avs may have acted arrogantly, I can't disagree with that, that's how they always act and it pisses me off too. But I have never seen one argument that came close to justifying Ryan O'Reilly being a $5M player at this point in his career.

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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
So he got outsmarted by an idiot. There you have it.

Why should we not criticize the guy for just sitting there and listening to offers instead of actively shopping him and trying to get a fair trade for the guy?

Again, by just relying on "the code" he let his so-called plan rest on a flimsy, unwritten rule. And it burned him.
Unless you're in negotiations, you can't make this claim. You don't know what constitutes actively shopping him, and what is just sitting on his ass listening to offers and saying not good enough.

We don't even know what the "offers" were. The majority of us, if not all of us were happy he was being patient waiting for the right deal up until a few days ago.

In fact, I personally have a hard time believing that most GM's were making fair offers, and if they were going to, they probably would have waited until the trade deadline to put pressure on Sherman, and so that O'Reilly could fit under their cap easier. That's what happens with practically every trade during a season, and Sherman knew this.

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If it's Pracey who takes over (and it should be) I wouldn't be worried. He's been more responsible for the young talent on this squad moreso than Sherman anyway.
I'm not sure being a good amateur scout, and director of amateur scouting would necessarily make you a good NHL GM. It could translate, and maybe it could with Pracey, but their whole job is watching junior players and knowing their traits. They probably don't have much time to watch much of any NHL players. CBJ is testing it out though, and I'm sure theres been others in the past.

To me, if they end up firing Sherman, Roy will become the leading candidate again for both GM and HC since they'll likely both be open. It just depends on what they want to offer him this time, what he's willing to take, and whether Quebec has an NHL team yet.

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03-02-2013, 02:34 PM
  #840
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What a load of something funky that is. 10-12 teams who were legitimately interested in him, and 4 teams who made him offer sheets, were all prepared to pay him an AAV of $5m per. Feaster just went bonkers with $6.5m in the second year. That tells me that at least 33-40% of the league would have avoided "this situation."
The deal he was given this summer was fair IMO. If Duchene went to RFA this far into the season, I'm sure he would get a major offer sheet of something like 6.0M. In my opinion, that doesn't prove that he was worth that, yes I guess if someone is willing to give him that, he kinda is, but it only takes one GM out of 30 to pay too much..

I know you are just trying to protect your buddy, but I'm just very frustrated at him for screwing this up so much, I'm sure this will come to hurt to Avs big time. Either they have to trade a great player, or being forced to overpay for Varly, Landy, Dutchy too just because ROR was so greedy he was willing to wait half a season to get what he wanted.

I was just very positive about our re-build and the pieces we had and I'm angry at him for screwing up so much.

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03-02-2013, 02:38 PM
  #841
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Robin,

You can hate O'Reilly all you want, but putting absolutely zero blame on Sherman and management for what has happened is ludicrous. Sorry, it just is. They could have handled this much, much better.

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03-02-2013, 02:41 PM
  #842
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Robin,

You can hate O'Reilly all you want, but putting absolutely zero blame on Sherman and management for what has happened is ludicrous. Sorry, it just is. They could have handled this much, much better.
I'm not that crazy about how the Avs handled this either, but can you please give us a hint into what they did that was so offensive in negotiations? I've asked this many times, and I understand if you don't want to answer, but without any sort of hint all we see is O'Reilly insisting on $5M and the Avs not wanting to pay that.

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03-02-2013, 02:42 PM
  #843
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I don't think it will matter in a year.

Either ROR and mgmt will mend fences and ROR will sign an extension that is more reasonable -- 5M for 5 years, for example -- or ROR will be traded. If traded, hopefully he has had a good year so we get someone of equal value in return.

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03-02-2013, 02:45 PM
  #844
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I'm not that crazy about how the Avs handled this either, but can you please give us a hint into what they did that was so offensive in negotiations? I've asked this many times, and I understand if you don't want to answer, but without any sort of hint all we see is O'Reilly insisting on $5M and the Avs not wanting to pay that.
and then saying it was worth holding out, leaving the team to fend for itself, because he got PAID. Not saying he's glad to be back with the Avs, more like he's glad to be playing again. I don't think he cares where he's playing, just that he is playing and getting fat stacks to do so. I seriously question his loyalty, and thus, his character.

EDIT: anyway, this is the Sherman thread, not the ROR thread. We -- myself included -- need to keep it on track.

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03-02-2013, 02:52 PM
  #845
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and then saying it was worth holding out, leaving the team to fend for itself, because he got PAID. Not saying he's glad to be back with the Avs, more like he's glad to be playing again. I don't think he cares where he's playing, just that he is playing and getting fat stacks to do so. I seriously question his loyalty, and thus, his character.

EDIT: anyway, this is the Sherman thread, not the ROR thread. We -- myself included -- need to keep it on track.
Yea, I mean that's really tough to hear little things like that. The only person it was worth it to was him. Everyone else in the world lost. I wish he would keep things like that to himself but I'll try to give him the benefit of the doubt that he doesn't know how those comments may come off.

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03-02-2013, 03:06 PM
  #846
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Robin,

You can hate O'Reilly all you want, but putting absolutely zero blame on Sherman and management for what has happened is ludicrous. Sorry, it just is. They could have handled this much, much better.
I do believe that the Avs could have handled this better. But I wouldn't have gone higher than 3.5M either, especially after Duchene accepting that. Maybe they could have offered ROR five years at 4.0M or something, sweetend his longer offer. But I don't know if it would have helped.

Edit: I'm just sad and disappointed really. ROR was probably my favorite player and I dont like what he did.

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03-02-2013, 03:08 PM
  #847
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Yea, I mean that's really tough to hear little things like that. The only person it was worth it to was him. Everyone else in the world lost. I wish he would keep things like that to himself but I'll try to give him the benefit of the doubt that he doesn't know how those comments may come off.
They come off as arrogant and smug, to me. Not two words that I use when describing someone of high character.

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03-02-2013, 03:10 PM
  #848
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I do believe that the Avs could have handled this better. But I wouldn't have gone higher than 3.5M either, especially after Duchene accepting that. Maybe they could have offered ROR five years at 4.0M or something, sweetend his longer offer. But I don't know if it would have helped.
We don't truly know if they did offer that at any point. Avs management is very secretive. All we've heard about the offers came from the ROR camp -- whether through the player, agent, friend, etc.

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03-02-2013, 03:12 PM
  #849
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I do believe that the Avs could have handled this better. But I wouldn't have gone higher than 3.5M either, especially after Duchene accepting that. Maybe they could have offered ROR five years at 4.0M or something, sweetend his longer offer. But I don't know if it would have helped.

Edit: I'm just sad and disappointed really. ROR was probably my favorite player and I dont like what he did.
This is one of the few fair critiques on Sherman in this situation that I've agreed with as well. He should have put more options on the table.

I mentioned early on in this that I probably would have tried to offer something like that as well. Even if it didn't eat up any UFA years, but that's just me. Depending on the term, I don't know how much I would have gone above $4M though either, and from the sounds of it, that probably wasn't enough but who knows.

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03-02-2013, 03:26 PM
  #850
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This thread has always made me think that this really should be

"PL and company"

His fingerprints are all over so many things that Sherman gets blamed for. I still truly believe that Sherman working under Sakic, or any reasonable person other than PL would be one of the more well regarded GMs in the league. He seems to have a good sense as to player evaluation and how they fit on this team (Zanon, O'Brien, O'Byrne fitting Sacco's defensive style), and has always kept this team from having cap issues high or low.

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