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Team Toughness or lack thereof

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03-02-2013, 10:47 AM
  #226
Rocket Richard
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Originally Posted by God Says No View Post
not many people can. looks like we got under his skin just fine.
Now I know that you know Hockey, and we can both agree that come playoff time, we would get so lucky, and if we have to play Boston in the Playoffs, Lucic will be a Sens killer.

Not to mention Horton, Chara and a few others.

But like I've mentioned before this Team has found a way to keep on winning!

GO SENS GO!

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03-02-2013, 11:53 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Rocket Richard View Post
I agree to some extent, except for maybe in the Playoffs when the Rangers where using Karlsson as a punching bag, until Carkner stepped in!

We will need more toughness in the Playoffs! Who will handle guys like Lucic in the Playoffs?
Again, Karlsson was the best skater in that series. Their toughness didn't stop him one bit. True that Carkner helped get boyle back but he did so off fights not off toughness during play.

I strongly believe that a team's toughness is the ability of the defense to play a physical and handle a physical game. Methot and Gryba handled Lucic and Horton perfectly last night. I think the physical and tough component of the defense is much more important than the forwards. With that being said, we still have a very physical and fast bottom 6 but we need more skill in the top 6. Spezza back will help immensely as should the acquisition of another top-end forward like Perry/Ryan and we'd be set, imo.

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03-02-2013, 02:14 PM
  #228
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Daugavins and Alfredsson were the only players to respond to anything this game.

Absolutely pathetic.

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03-02-2013, 02:21 PM
  #229
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Wonder if Lehner would have made a difference. He wouldn't have put up with any shenanigans.

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03-02-2013, 02:28 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Daugavins and Alfredsson were the only players to respond to anything this game.

Absolutely pathetic.
I miss Carkner.

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03-02-2013, 02:29 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Landru View Post
I miss Carkner.
I agree. Nobody brings toughness from the IR like him.

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03-02-2013, 02:54 PM
  #232
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Well, Carkner was good when he could breath

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03-02-2013, 04:11 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
Again, Karlsson was the best skater in that series.
Nobody is denying he's the best skater out there, and hopefully, he will be even better this year in the Playoffs, but he will tightly checked big time!

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03-02-2013, 04:50 PM
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
Again, Karlsson was the best skater in that series. Their toughness didn't stop him one bit. True that Carkner helped get boyle back but he did so off fights not off toughness during play.

I strongly believe that a team's toughness is the ability of the defense to play a physical and handle a physical game. Methot and Gryba handled Lucic and Horton perfectly last night. I think the physical and tough component of the defense is much more important than the forwards. With that being said, we still have a very physical and fast bottom 6 but we need more skill in the top 6. Spezza back will help immensely as should the acquisition of another top-end forward like Perry/Ryan and we'd be set, imo.
This is the reason I don`t like Benoit on defence because I don`t think he is big enough, strong enough or tough enough to handle the big NHL forwards that every team has. I do like Methot, Wiercioch, Gryba & Borweicki on defence & Ceci has the size to handle NHL players, he may need some seasoning in Bingo. Phillips may be getting too long in the tooth but he has the size strength. Karlsson has the speed & smarts, Benoit is no Karlsson. Gonchar has decent size but is done IMO.

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03-02-2013, 05:00 PM
  #235
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This team is just sad to watch.

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03-02-2013, 05:03 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Bender2.0 View Post
This team is just sad to watch.
They certainly were today. I dont even care about the points. Simmonds and Rinaldo were punking us on every play and we did nothing about it. Chris Phillips in that scrum was a disgrace.

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03-02-2013, 05:13 PM
  #237
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This team is just sad to watch.
WTF??? Sad to watch!! These guys are killing themselves every night working with zero talent and no discernible powerplay and they're scrapping for every point. They forecheck hard. They play hard on the puck. What in the hell do you guys want? That is a RIDICULOUS statement.

Rinaldo and Simmonds were punking us on every play? Come on man. Seriously? Rinaldo turned down ever opportunity to fight Neil, Smith, and Dizzy. He did stand up bravely to the fearsome Daugavins. Quite a tough guy. Simmonds is legit and so is Hartnell. But they didn't win the game for the Flyers. Complete lack of finish by the Sens, as usual, lost this game.

I GUARANTEE you Zac Rinaldo plays the EXACT same way with Matt Carkner on the ice and turns him down for fights just like he did Neil and Smith. No question in my mind. The Sens do not lack toughness. The 2000/2001 Sens lacked toughness. But no P Mac couched or Bryan Murray GM'd team is ever going to lack toughness.

Sweet Jebus, of all the things you picked up from that game you thought they were "sad" because they weren't tough enough? Thank goodness I can turn to a Travis Yost for some sanity. Some posters on these boards have no clue what makes a hockey team.

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03-02-2013, 05:26 PM
  #238
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The Flyers pushed us around today and we didn't really respond. There have been some rather clear indications over the last few games that the Senators could use an improvement in the toughness department.

I have to commend Alfie for going after Rinaldo, although he shouldn't have to. It is never a good sign when you have to rely on a 40 year old finesse player to step up to defend their teammates.

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03-02-2013, 05:28 PM
  #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delchief View Post
I GUARANTEE you Zac Rinaldo plays the EXACT same way with Matt Carkner on the ice.
I disagree completely with your first statement. You're also not taking into consideration the effect Carkner would have on his own team and not necessarily the Flyers. Players play bigger with Carkner around. The Rangers series last playoffs displayed this perfectly.

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03-02-2013, 05:30 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by delchief View Post
WTF??? Sad to watch!! These guys are killing themselves every night working with zero talent and no discernible powerplay and they're scrapping for every point. They forecheck hard. They play hard on the puck. What in the hell do you guys want? That is a RIDICULOUS statement.

Rinaldo and Simmonds were punking us on every play? Come on man. Seriously? Rinaldo turned down ever opportunity to fight Neil, Smith, and Dizzy. He did stand up bravely to the fearsome Daugavins. Quite a tough guy. Simmonds is legit and so is Hartnell. But they didn't win the game for the Flyers. Complete lack of finish by the Sens, as usual, lost this game.

I GUARANTEE you Zac Rinaldo plays the EXACT same way with Matt Carkner on the ice and turns him down for fights just like he did Neil and Smith. No question in my mind. The Sens do not lack toughness. The 2000/2001 Sens lacked toughness. But no P Mac couched or Bryan Murray GM'd team is ever going to lack toughness.

Sweet Jebus, of all the things you picked up from that game you thought they were "sad" because they weren't tough enough? Thank goodness I can turn to a Travis Yost for some sanity. Some posters on these boards have no clue what makes a hockey team.
The Senators do lack toughness. That is very evident based on what occurred in today's game along with the games against Boston and Toronto. They aren't a soft team though; they have moderate levels of toughness which will only cause difficulties when playing the toughest teams in the league.

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03-02-2013, 05:32 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by H2ODP View Post
I disagree completely with your first statement. You're also not taking into consideration the effect Carkner would have on his own team and not necessarily the Flyers. Players play bigger with Carkner around. The Rangers series last playoffs displayed this perfectly.
Most people don't value that because it is intangible. What you are saying is entirely correct, yet some posters for whatever reason fail to believe that it is true.

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03-02-2013, 05:37 PM
  #242
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The Flyers pushed us around today and we didn't really respond.
Been a long time Sens fan and I am always on the lookout for lack-of-toughness issues because of those early 2000s teams who were skilled but got pushed around. That was on Jacques Martin. He ALWAYS thought taking the power play made up for turning the other cheek. In his mind there was no such thing as the team sticking up for itself.

There is NO WAY IN HELL this team is like that. You guys saying it doesn't make it so. Let's be honest, boys. The thing this team lacks is scoring talent. They are abysmal at creating and finishing chances.

But toughness? Come on. Nobody "pushed us around" today. The Flyers played a hard-hitting home game, no question, but so what? Who got pushed around? Lundin? Sure, with an illegal hit to the head. And that was responded to repeatedly with Zac Rinaldo turning down fight after fight. The Sens went nuts trying to "respond" and it cost them penalties.

All I ask is for an honest look at the game. If you simply want a team full of fighters so you can raise your manhood quotient just say so. This team is killing itself for the fans and squeezing every ounce of talent out of a virtually talentless roster.

We lose 2-1 in a hard-fought game and suddenly we're a bunch of girl scouts???

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03-02-2013, 05:45 PM
  #243
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Did you see Regin getting mauled after the whistle? With Neil, Methot, Smith and Gryba on the ice... Nothing

Did you see Phillips getting embarassed by Fedotenko near the bench? Getting facewashed and bent over the boards? Again.... No response

Did u see Talbot chopping our goalie after he had the puck covered in our crease? Small scrum which included more of our guys getting facewashed

We actually looked EXACTLY like teams in the Jacques Martin days.

Dennis Potvin almost lost his marbles when Smith wouldnt fight Rinaldo(not the other way around)

Neil turned back to go after somebody(dont remember) and Simmonds went up to Neil, gave him a tap and Neil just passed him. 2 minutes later Simmonds scored.

It was embarassing

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Old
03-02-2013, 05:53 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by delchief View Post
Been a long time Sens fan and I am always on the lookout for lack-of-toughness issues because of those early 2000s teams who were skilled but got pushed around. That was on Jacques Martin. He ALWAYS thought taking the power play made up for turning the other cheek. In his mind there was no such thing as the team sticking up for itself.

There is NO WAY IN HELL this team is like that. You guys saying it doesn't make it so. Let's be honest, boys. The thing this team lacks is scoring talent. They are abysmal at creating and finishing chances.

But toughness? Come on. Nobody "pushed us around" today. The Flyers played a hard-hitting home game, no question, but so what? Who got pushed around? Lundin? Sure, with an illegal hit to the head. And that was responded to repeatedly with Zac Rinaldo turning down fight after fight. The Sens went nuts trying to "respond" and it cost them penalties.

All I ask is for an honest look at the game. If you simply want a team full of fighters so you can raise your manhood quotient just say so. This team is killing itself for the fans and squeezing every ounce of talent out of a virtually talentless roster.

We lose 2-1 in a hard-fought game and suddenly we're a bunch of girl scouts???
No one is denying that the lack of talent is an issue, they are just asserting that lack of toughness is also an issue. Obviously the lack of skill is the much more prevalent issue though.

I agree that we need to commend the Senators for getting the most out of their roster. But with that stated just like improving the skill level would make the Senators more effective, so would increasing the toughness level.

It is also quite surprising the amount of ad hominem responses that are occurring to anyone who is an advocate of improving the toughness of this organization. But then again ad hominem attacks generally occur when individuals lack a valid rebuttal.

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03-02-2013, 05:55 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by delchief View Post
Been a long time Sens fan and I am always on the lookout for lack-of-toughness issues because of those early 2000s teams who were skilled but got pushed around. That was on Jacques Martin. He ALWAYS thought taking the power play made up for turning the other cheek. In his mind there was no such thing as the team sticking up for itself.

There is NO WAY IN HELL this team is like that. You guys saying it doesn't make it so. Let's be honest, boys. The thing this team lacks is scoring talent. They are abysmal at creating and finishing chances.

But toughness? Come on. Nobody "pushed us around" today. The Flyers played a hard-hitting home game, no question, but so what? Who got pushed around? Lundin? Sure, with an illegal hit to the head. And that was responded to repeatedly with Zac Rinaldo turning down fight after fight. The Sens went nuts trying to "respond" and it cost them penalties.

All I ask is for an honest look at the game. If you simply want a team full of fighters so you can raise your manhood quotient just say so. This team is killing itself for the fans and squeezing every ounce of talent out of a virtually talentless roster.

We lose 2-1 in a hard-fought game and suddenly we're a bunch of girl scouts???
We are second last in the league for fighting majors. Today our 40 year old captain who is not a bruiser or a brawler, was forced to take matters into his own hands and go after a punk ass like Rinaldo because no one else would. That is unacceptable.

This team doesn't stand up for itself. They don't show any emotion out there and they certainly don't have each others' backs. This is NOT last year's Sens team, which were arguably the toughest in the league and were a close knit group. This year's edition is in fact very similar to the Martin era teams in their mentality.

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Old
03-02-2013, 05:59 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by Legend Killer View Post
Did you see Regin getting mauled after the whistle? With Neil, Methot, Smith and Gryba on the ice... Nothing

Did you see Phillips getting embarassed by Fedotenko near the bench? Getting facewashed and bent over the boards? Again.... No response

Did u see Talbot chopping our goalie after he had the puck covered in our crease? Small scrum which included more of our guys getting facewashed

We actually looked EXACTLY like teams in the Jacques Martin days.

Dennis Potvin almost lost his marbles when Smith wouldnt fight Rinaldo(not the other way around)

Neil turned back to go after somebody(dont remember) and Simmonds went up to Neil, gave him a tap and Neil just passed him. 2 minutes later Simmonds scored.

It was embarassing
This seems like a much more objective analysis of what occurred than some of the posters are suggesting. MacLean said in the post game press conference that the Senators are not going to let the opposition push them around and take liberties. Therefore this issue should be addressed going forward, whether that is from our own personnel or acquiring somebody through trade. Murray always seems to respond to games like this, I wouldn't be surprised if he already has some players in mind that he is thinking of acquiring.

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Old
03-02-2013, 06:06 PM
  #247
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The thing that bothers me is the Flyers don't even have a scary team physically like there is no Orr/Maclaren combo or anything like that to fear just a high level of team toughness and the mentality of Flyers hockey + some skill players that like to mix it up.


The play where Neil and Smith were pushing Rinaldo at the benches ..... why not just grab him and give him no ****ing choice like he did to Daug .... Philly got the pp anyways so instead of 2 mins for pushing him to the ice why not 2 mins for instigating and giving him a beating.

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03-02-2013, 06:17 PM
  #248
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Bring back Konopka please seriously

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Old
03-02-2013, 06:37 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by Bruiser View Post
That is incorrect. Your definition much better suits "grit" than it does "toughness". By your definition players like Alfredsson, Silfverberg, Turris and Condra would be considered "tough". Those players are gritty skilled/finesse players but you would be hard pressed to find any respectable GM, coach, scout or executive that would say that any of those players increase the overall toughness of the team.

"Toughness" basically comes down to being difficult to play against in terms of the physical aspects of the game. A "tough player" is someone who the opposition's players are scared to battle with around the net, along the boards or in the corners. A "tough player" is someone who the opposition's players pay attention to when on the ice and keep their heads up so that they don't get run over. Being "tough" has to do with taking away time and space and the ability to take players off their game by hitting, agitating or simply being intimidating to battle against.
I would say toughness/grit is the same thing. Being tough/gritty is going to the dirty areas and willing to take hits to make plays.

Being rough is what youre talking about. Roughness is going out and being physically imposing.

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Old
03-02-2013, 06:47 PM
  #250
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Originally Posted by Legend Killer View Post
Did you see Regin getting mauled after the whistle? With Neil, Methot, Smith and Gryba on the ice... Nothing

Did you see Phillips getting embarassed by Fedotenko near the bench? Getting facewashed and bent over the boards? Again.... No response

Did u see Talbot chopping our goalie after he had the puck covered in our crease? Small scrum which included more of our guys getting facewashed

We actually looked EXACTLY like teams in the Jacques Martin days.

Dennis Potvin almost lost his marbles when Smith wouldnt fight Rinaldo(not the other way around)

Neil turned back to go after somebody(dont remember) and Simmonds went up to Neil, gave him a tap and Neil just passed him. 2 minutes later Simmonds scored.

It was embarassing
This. Turris' line has been getting pushed around and playing timid for several games now. That's supposed to be our 1st line. They need to be protected.

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