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Old
02-21-2013, 10:43 AM
  #76
KeithBWhittington
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The tone of this thread has told me one thing:

They need to raise the draft eligible age to at least 20. You have players that are taking upwards of close to decade to fully realize potential or you are playing the waiting game as some believe its unfair to pass judgement before you see them play in the NHL or bust completely, which could be as long as 5 or 6 years or even longer.

The Canadain junior system, along with the US developmental programs, USHL and world junior leagues, not to mention USHS, are no where close to the barometer you need to judge these kids properly at 17 or 18 years old. Regardless of where they play, they are playing against what seems like 75 percent of players that will never sniff pro hockey. About the closest barometer you have is the elite leagues in Europe or the KHL, and even those leagues are full of North American washouts not to mention the bigger rinks that lends itself to a different style of game than North America.

Until they fix the feeder system for the NHL draft itself, it will cease to be anything more than a "Shot in the dark" system, even deep drafts are spoken of about dropping off somewhere after or in the middle of, the second round.


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02-21-2013, 02:47 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
The tone of this thread has told me one thing:

They need to raise the draft eligible age to at least 20. You have players that are taking upwards of close to decade to fully realize potential or you are playing the waiting game as some believe its unfair to pass judgement before you see them play in the NHL or bust completely, which could be as long as 5 or 6 years or even longer.

The Canadain junior system, along with the US developmental programs, USHL and world junior leagues, not to mention USHS, are no where close to the barometer you need to judge these kids properly at 17 or 18 years old. Regardless of where they play, they are playing against what seems like 75 percent of players that will never sniff pro hockey. About the closest barometer you have is the elite leagues in Europe or the KHL, and even those leagues are full of North American washouts not to mention the bigger rinks that lends itself to a different style of game than North America.

Until they fix the feeder system for the NHL draft itself, it will cease to be anything more than a "Shot in the dark" system, even deep drafts are spoken of about dropping off somewhere after or in the middle of, the second round.
Some players are a "shot in the dark", and some aren't. If you move the draft age to 20, then this would mean no 18 and 19 year olds in the NHL, right? Well Crosby was never a "shot in the dark" and belonged in the NHL at 18, if not younger. It wouldn't be right to hold players of that ilk back. And I don't think there is anything wrong with the draft being so full of uncertainty. Are you suggesting moving the draft age forward two years just to make judgments more certain? Why do we need that?

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02-22-2013, 08:54 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by major major View Post
Some players are a "shot in the dark", and some aren't. If you move the draft age to 20, then this would mean no 18 and 19 year olds in the NHL, right? Well Crosby was never a "shot in the dark" and belonged in the NHL at 18, if not younger. It wouldn't be right to hold players of that ilk back. And I don't think there is anything wrong with the draft being so full of uncertainty. Are you suggesting moving the draft age forward two years just to make judgments more certain? Why do we need that?
Understandable, you will have the "phenoms" so to speak... There's a lot of talk around the water cooler about this in regards to Jadeavon Clowney from South Carolina and if he should sit out this season of SEC Football to prepare for the draft next April as he can't go pro till next year (at least in the NFL) and he'd be the projected first overall this april. You are going to have the rare "Crosbys" as well, so there would need to be a "Special Case" rule, the junior leagues actually have them now, and I think Sid was granted it to play at a younger age in the "Q" than most elgibles.

The NBA is suffering from this right now. The one and done rule is absolutely ridiculous if you ask me. Twisting arms to attend college for one season only to go pro is crazy. You want to go to the NBA right from HS? Ok, but if you choose to attend college, you stay at least three years.

An extra two years in a system somewhere would give the scouts and teams a better and more accurate barometer for assessing potential big league talent.

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02-22-2013, 09:21 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
They need to raise the draft eligible age to at least 20.
Hell no. No, no, no. Not ever.

It's already bad enough you can't drink until your 21, now were going to say you can't do your trade until 20 or later? It's bad enough they scam the players like they do with the college football/pro football relationship.

If you can die for your country you can gain employment in hockey.

Now let's get back to Howson's draft record.

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02-22-2013, 07:06 PM
  #80
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"Now let's get back to Howson's draft record."

I think this thread has come to rough agreement that Howson's draft record looks average at this point, and that it will take some years to really find out. Not sure what else to add.

The Prospects Thread has very promising updates on Gianluca Curcuruto and Josh Anderson.

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03-02-2013, 12:43 PM
  #81
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A final word regarding both of our GM emeriti(is that plural of emeritus?). There is a thread on the mains for you to put together your all draft team regardless of whether or not your picks are still active with your team, they just have to be active somewhere. I put one up and it ain't pretty.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1#post60786689

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03-02-2013, 01:35 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
A final word regarding both of our GM emeriti(is that plural of emeritus?). There is a thread on the mains for you to put together your all draft team regardless of whether or not your picks are still active with your team, they just have to be active somewhere. I put one up and it ain't pretty.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1#post60786689
No, indeed, it isn't. It speaks volumes. So many, in fact, that this thread ought to be closed. No more need be said

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03-02-2013, 02:04 PM
  #83
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No, indeed, it isn't. It speaks volumes. So many, in fact, that this thread ought to be closed. No more need be said
Yes, damn Howson for not drafting better between 2000 and 2006 (and earlier).

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03-02-2013, 03:06 PM
  #84
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I have to say I am happy with Voracek (even if he's doing well in Philly and not here), Moore, Savard, Johansen (thus far), Jenner, and a few others.

I am unhappy with Filatov, Lynch, Straka, Smith, and a few others.

All in all, some hits and some misses.

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03-02-2013, 03:19 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post
No, indeed, it isn't. It speaks volumes. So many, in fact, that this thread ought to be closed. No more need be said
It speaks volumes? Volumes on Howson's drafting? There's a saying in economics research for when a researcher unwittingly applies a filter or model that leaves us with less relevant information. Its called "information destroying". That's what this analysis is. It strips out information relevant to when Howson drafted, how often, who was available, etc...

Also there are plenty of teams in the league that have only a few players collectively from the last 6 drafts (the Howson era), but you won't know that from this analysis. Also, remember we weren't even in the NHL when a lot of these players were drafted. If you are going to compare teams to the Jackets, make sure to subtract Datsyuk and Zetterberg from the Wings, Jokinen, Visnovsky and Timonen from the Kings, etc..

I like this all-drafted team exercise, but the fact that it was inserted into a Howson's drafting thread and billed as a conclusion, makes me pessimistic about the future of our understanding.

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03-02-2013, 03:38 PM
  #86
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For all of you who can't read (or choose to ignore the written word)I directed this to BOTH of our illustrious GM's not just Howson. I put it in this thread because I wasn't sure where to put it. It was not meant to reignite the Howson debate but merely to show that the overall results of our drafting for our existence has not produced a whole lot. About the best that can be argued is that the jury is still out on the class of 2008 and beyond.

Go look at Pittsburgh's results on the main thread. Ignoring Crosby and Malkin still a pretty impressive list. Couple of other teams too. Others not so good.

Come on now. We didn't even produce a whole team and save for the Sestitio & Murray adds this week we would have been 3 short. And no backup goalie. Our drafting collectively and cumulatively has been pretty bad. My last word on this subject. Guess I should have just posted on the mains and not bothered over here.


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03-02-2013, 06:53 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
For all of you who can't read (or choose to ignore the written word)I directed this to BOTH of our illustrious GM's not just Howson. I put it in this thread because I wasn't sure where to put it. It was not meant to reignite the Howson debate but merely to show that the overall results of our drafting for our existence has not produced a whole lot. About the best that can be argued is that the jury is still out on the class of 2008 and beyond.

Go look at Pittsburgh's results on the main thread. Ignoring Crosby and Malkin still a pretty impressive list. Couple of other teams too. Others not so good.

Come on now. We didn't even produce a whole team and save for the Sestitio & Murray adds this week we would have been 3 short. And no backup goalie. Our drafting collectively and cumulatively has been pretty bad. My last word on this subject. Guess I should have just posted on the mains and not bothered over here.
So we've pared Howson down to a single draft in Columbus (2007) about which anything can be said involving players who are now known quantities.

So now it's back to what I've been saying for years....Dougie was both a bad GM and (somehow) a worse drafter than Don Waddell. You could take Waddell's top-2 picks (Heatley and Kovalchuk) away and it would still be a true statement.

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03-02-2013, 07:22 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
A final word regarding both of our GM emeriti(is that plural of emeritus?). There is a thread on the mains for you to put together your all draft team regardless of whether or not your picks are still active with your team, they just have to be active somewhere. I put one up and it ain't pretty.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1#post60786689
well, you're using it as an adjective here- it should be general managers emeritus.

but you're also mis-using it because neither of them really have emeritus status... they're just ex-gms


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03-02-2013, 10:07 PM
  #89
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well, you're using it as an adjective here- it should be general managers emeritus.

but you're also mis-using it because neither of them really have emeritus status... they're just ex-gms

I hate you grammar gurus, but i think you misused a - in mis-used.

and good point about neither having emeritus status

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03-02-2013, 10:25 PM
  #90
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Kudos to Captain for even attempting to brooch this topic.... One thing I can say for sure, the NHL fan experience dropped precipitously at Nationwide after Doug MacLean was fired...

At least MacLean had the balls to "take action" even if his choices where wrong...

The five years under Howson did little to advance the organization post MacLean, with god’s help JD will save the organization in spite of the McConnell family.

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03-02-2013, 10:36 PM
  #91
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At least MacLean had the balls to "take action" even if his choices where wrong...
I'm surprised you'd say this. I think there was a ton of turnover under Howson, and it didn't help. Both he and Maclean made some "ballsy" choices. The one thing neither did, which ownership might have prevented, is a full rebuild the way we are doing it now.

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03-02-2013, 10:40 PM
  #92
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Kudos to Captain for even attempting to brooch this topic.... One thing I can say for sure, the NHL fan experience dropped precipitously at Nationwide after Doug MacLean was fired...

At least MacLean had the balls to "take action" even if his choices where wrong...

The five years under Howson did little to advance the organization post MacLean, with god’s help JD will save the organization in spite of the McConnell family.
The McConnell family has always shown a willingness to spend money on this franchise. A bad hire or two I agree but this is a little strong.

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03-02-2013, 10:43 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by major major View Post
I'm surprised you'd say this. I think there was a ton of turnover under Howson, and it didn't help. Both he and Maclean made some "ballsy" choices. The one thing neither did, which ownership might have prevented, is a full rebuild the way we are doing it now.
I can't quote or link the actual comments from NHL professionals but it was said (paraphrase)... Howson was conservative to a fault.... Other CBJ experts here will provide the exact quotes if required..

As for a full rebuild under either, agree.

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03-02-2013, 11:02 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Byrral View Post
The McConnell family has always shown a willingness to spend money on this franchise. A bad hire or two I agree but this is a little strong.
Money, in the context of my thought, was not the issue.... It's the character or personality of people hired to lead an organization.... Winning at all cost comes first; kids’ stuff and off ice stuff comes second..

Not saying kids, Stinger, pizza boxes and kisses on the Jumbotron, foundations and off ice issues are not important; simply, they do not win Stanley Cups... Good management wins and with some luck we have it with JD at the helm…

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03-03-2013, 01:26 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
I hate you grammar gurus, but i think you misused a - in mis-used.

and good point about neither having emeritus status
Grammar's all I got!

I don't like grammar gurus either, I was just answering a question you had asked.

(ok, no more blatantly off-thread posts from me)

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03-03-2013, 04:15 PM
  #96
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In Hindsight, Scott Howson would have been a great hire as a "Bridge" (3 years or so) to another, full time, more experienced General Manager. He would have staunched the bleeding (before he started significantly adding to it) and gained valuable insight into the General Manager's position he could have parlayed it into a much better position with another NHL organization than the one he will likely end up with.

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03-03-2013, 07:19 PM
  #97
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Howson was a good GM here. He cleaned up the mess XGMDM started, and he got us to the playoffs. His only mistakes in my mind were the trade for Carter, Hiring Arniel, and drafting Filatov. You can argue that firing Hitchcock is in there too, but at the time it was justified and needed because the team had quit on him. He had some solid picks in the later rounds that will help the team in the long run. He was hardly ever hosed on trades, and at least got fair return in a lot of them. He set the foundation for the team, and its Jarmo and JD's job to build on the foundation.

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03-03-2013, 08:11 PM
  #98
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Howson was a good GM here. He cleaned up the mess XGMDM started, and he got us to the playoffs. His only mistakes in my mind were the trade for Carter, Hiring Arniel, and drafting Filatov. You can argue that firing Hitchcock is in there too, but at the time it was justified and needed because the team had quit on him. He had some solid picks in the later rounds that will help the team in the long run. He was hardly ever hosed on trades, and at least got fair return in a lot of them. He set the foundation for the team, and its Jarmo and JD's job to build on the foundation.
I agree with this for the most part, most of his personnel moves were good.

I'm not sure he laid the foundation for this team so much as he increased the organizations pool of assets from where it was when Doug Maclean was canned. In this way he set up Jarmo to lay the foundation.

Five years from now we'll have a better sense of Howson's contribution.

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03-03-2013, 08:53 PM
  #99
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Howson was a good guy and might have been a decent GM for someone else, but he left the team worse than what he started with I you look at their W-L record and finances.

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03-03-2013, 08:57 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by CBJBrassard16 View Post
Howson was a good GM here. He cleaned up the mess XGMDM started, and he got us to the playoffs. His only mistakes in my mind were the trade for Carter, Hiring Arniel, and drafting Filatov. You can argue that firing Hitchcock is in there too, but at the time it was justified and needed because the team had quit on him. He had some solid picks in the later rounds that will help the team in the long run. He was hardly ever hosed on trades, and at least got fair return in a lot of them. He set the foundation for the team, and its Jarmo and JD's job to build on the foundation.
You might want to add to your list of Howson mistakes : assembling a team which finished dead last in the NHL last year and is the odds on favorite to do so again this year. Given that assembling a competitive team is one of the main responsibilities of a GM, I would consider this a fairly major problem.


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