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Old
03-02-2013, 04:06 PM
  #26
Giroux tha Damaja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYguy3911 View Post
I don't know what you're trying to say. I said it wasn't a clean hit, but you don't let up on a hit (unless a guy has his back to the boards obviously). It's hockey. It's a fast, physical game. The moment you let up, you are the one that ends up getting hurt. Lundin left himself in a vulnerable position and payed for it. If Harry let's up and that play turns into a goal would that be better for you? If Harry stays on his feet we aren't even talking about this.

Aside from leaving his feet, which we agree he did, I still think it would've been charging even if he stayed on his feet. I understand that you play your opoonent hard, but he's another man, and the consequences of hits like that become bigger than the game for the person getting hit a lot of the time. I guess what I'm getting at is that I wish Z would have exercised some more discretion there. I took the long way around to making that point, but there it is I guess.

Why is it obvious to let up when you're checking a guy facing the boards because he's vulnerable, but not obvious to let up on a guy at the blueline when he's vulnerable from playing a puck near his feet? What's the real difference?

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03-02-2013, 04:10 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. He pushed into the hit with his legs too when he was already going so fast. I don't know it's difficult because I'm watching it in slow motion after the fact with the benefit of knowing how the hit ended, but he was making the decision in the moment, in real time. It's just hard seeing a guy laid out from head contact like that. It stops being fun to watch and becomes worrisome.
He pushed into the hit with his legs, but at the same time he was also coasting into the hit (he stopped skating), thus making it a lower speed collision than it could have been. He also only *barely* left his feet before impact.

He didn't target the head, and he didn't use the elbow, so it was a pretty clean play. What I mean by that is he didn't deliberately intend to injure anybody. If his timing was just a little bit better, it's ruled a totally clean play, but at a high speed, it's pretty difficult to get the timing perfectly right and so he left his feet early and he'll likely get a 2-3 game suspension and he'll deserve it.

But I don't have a problem with the hit and I hope Harry Z does the same think next time, just with slightly better timing. I want opposing players to think twice before cruising along in the neutral zone w/ their heads down.

I enjoyed seeing the hit and I'm glad Lundin was OK too. But big hits like that are a great part of the game and often times light a fire under your team.

Harry Z is also trying to solidify a spot on this team long-term as a speedy undersized kid w/ no finishing skills. If he starts letting up on hits, that's going to be pretty tough to do. Laviolette defended him big-time after the game. You can tell it left a positive impression on the coach. I also don't think it's a coincidence that the team really woke up after that hit.

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03-02-2013, 04:15 PM
  #28
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Fair points guys. I see both sides of the argument, I do.

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03-02-2013, 04:15 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Aside from leaving his feet, which we agree he did, I still think it would've been charging even if he stayed on his feet. I understand that you play your opoonent hard, but he's another man, and the consequences of hits like that become bigger than the game for the person getting hit a lot of the time. I guess what I'm getting at is that I wish Z would have exercised some more discretion there. I took the long way around to making that point, but there it is I guess.

Why is it obvious to let up when you're checking a guy facing the boards because he's vulnerable, but not obvious to let up on a guy at the blueline when he's vulnerable from playing a puck near his feet? What's the real difference?
Head/spine injuries / potential paralysis. If you pile-drive a guy head/neck first into the boards, he's got no way to absorb the contact. All the force of the hit drives through his head / neck. You could kill a man if you did it in just the wrong way.

Big open ice hits are much different, as they usually don't involve the head/neck and even when you accidently hit the head, it's not like you're crunching the guy's head straight into something. He goes flying backwards, but that mitigates the force.

If you're holding a grape between your pointer finger and thumb and a bring my hand forward and punch the grape out of your hand, it will go flying and hit the ground, the skin might even be scraped, but it'll probably still be in-tact. If you're holding a grape and I bring both my hands together and "clap" with the grape right in the middle, the grape is going to be squished badly.

That's basically the difference.

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03-02-2013, 04:19 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
Head/spine injuries / potential paralysis. If you pile-drive a guy head/neck first into the boards, he's got no way to absorb the contact. All the force of the hit drives through his head / neck. You could kill a man if you did it in just the wrong way.

Big open ice hits are much different, as they usually don't involve the head/neck and even when you accidently hit the head, it's not like you're crunching the guy's head straight into something. He goes flying backwards, but that mitigates the force.
I'm aware that the potential injuries are different. But I don't think that constitutes a real distinction between the two, as the essence of the situation is the same in both cases. Namely, why does a players responsibility to avoid uneccesarily dangerous plays end at the boards/neck injuries? Just look at Savard as an example of how much trauma can be effected with out making contact with the boards.

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03-02-2013, 04:38 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I'm aware that the potential injuries are different. But I don't think that constitutes a real distinction between the two, as the essence of the situation is the same in both cases. Namely, why does a players responsibility to avoid uneccesarily dangerous plays end at the boards/neck injuries? Just look at Savard as an example of how much trauma can be effected with out making contact with the boards.
You make some fair points. At the end of the day though, the NHL realizes there's still danger in open ice hits, but there's more danger in boarding, so they've tried to eliminate boarding and crack down on open ice hits some, but not enough that big hits are totally out of the game. It's a tough balancing act IMO but I think they've done a decent job balancing the on ice product w/ player safety.

I think another large distinction with boarding is that you're hitting a guy directly from behind. He could be doing everything right, he could have his head up and be trying to make a good hockey play and you could completely crunch him without him ever seeing it coming. In most gigantic open ice hits, the player being hit shares some of the onus. Very rarely/never is a player crushed from behind in the open ice. Big open ice hits are usually the result of someone skating along the blue line or cruising the neutral zone with their head down.

I also wanted to copy/paste this from another thread (credit to dingbathero):
Quote:
Originally Posted by dingbathero View Post


skate on ice, shoulder to shoulder, hit to head in from follow thru.
What do you think about the Harry Z hit now?

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03-02-2013, 04:51 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
You make some fair points. At the end of the day though, the NHL realizes there's still danger in open ice hits, but there's more danger in boarding, so they've tried to eliminate boarding and crack down on open ice hits some, but not enough that big hits are totally out of the game. It's a tough balancing act IMO but I think they've done a decent job balancing the on ice product w/ player safety.

I think another large distinction with boarding is that you're hitting a guy directly from behind. He could be doing everything right, he could have his head up and be trying to make a good hockey play and you could completely crunch him without him ever seeing it coming. In most gigantic open ice hits, the player being hit shares some of the onus. Very rarely/never is a player crushed from behind in the open ice. Big open ice hits are usually the result of someone skating along the blue line or cruising the neutral zone with their head down.

I also wanted to copy/paste this from another thread (credit to dingbathero):


What do you think about the Harry Z hit now?
I still don't like it. That's one frame of the video. He has one foot on the ground while his should has made initial contact. Whether or not this satisfies the letter of the law as far as league rules goes is not really what I was getting at. Regardless of the timing is not really debateable whether or not he launched himself into Lundin.

I mean even if he just sticks his shoulder out, clenches his core up and coasts into him flat-footed, that's still going to be a thunderous check. All of the benefit of what he actually did and a lot less risk. Like I said, I don't think the check in indefensible and I appreciate your side of it, I do. I personally would just prefer some more discretion.

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03-02-2013, 05:03 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
We have decent depth at defense.

Timonen
Coburn
Schenn
Grossmann
Meszaros
Gustafsson
Gervais
Foster

What we lack Is a true bonafide #1 defenseman or a young blue chip prospect with the potential to be a bonafide #1 defenseman.
Ottawa doesn`t either, yet they are one of the best defensive clubs in the NHL.

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03-02-2013, 05:05 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
The comments he made about the Flyers defence was dead on. He also blamed the Sens player who was hit by Harry Z instead of going ******* on Z. It was refreshing to hear.
I agree, as far as I heard the game (ie, 1st period). The bile he spewed around the Rinaldo-Alfredsson shenanigans was just unprofessional and blatantly untrue. Saying Rinaldo turtled? Several times?

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03-02-2013, 05:28 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Sort of spinning off of that (not neccesarily agreeing or disagreeing with you), did you guys like the hit? Legality and whether it was clean aside, did you enjoy seeing it?

I have to say I didn't. I think there are times when you have an opportunity to really plaster a guy, perfectly legally and with in the rules, that you should still let up. I mean, that's way beyond what is needed to separate him from the puck (what checking is for) and a even good bit beyond just playing assertive, tough hockey. I don't know if it was dirty, but I don't know that I like it either.
I didn't like it. It reminded me of the Richards hit on Booth which put him out of play for a long time. Don't get me wrong, I think players need to be aware of who's around them but this seemed way over the top. Too much testosterone.

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03-02-2013, 05:32 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
I agree, as far as I heard the game (ie, 1st period). The bile he spewed around the Rinaldo-Alfredsson shenanigans was just unprofessional and blatantly untrue. Saying Rinaldo turtled? Several times?
That was ridiculous and was reminiscent of his usual crud. But for the most part I liked both of them, I'm tired of the banter between guys and the private jokes. The pbp guy is quite low key but I'd rather have a guy who just calls the game and doesn't make himself the centrepiece.

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03-02-2013, 05:43 PM
  #37
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I'm gonna ask a question I've already asked in the Schenn thread:

AFTER Timo retires, what if we dump Meszaros and snag Yandle.

Assume a top 4 then of Yandle, Schenn, Grossman and Coburn. ANd a bottom pairing of ... well, anyone cheap. Gustafson, Gervais??

OK that Top 4 plus Bryz. Is that good enough of a defense to win a Cup, yes or no? Assume the forwards score like they're capable of, just evaluate that defense corps and goaltender.

Good enough.... yes or no???

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03-02-2013, 05:43 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by MoreGore View Post
Ottawa doesn`t either, yet they are one of the best defensive clubs in the NHL.
Karlsson isn't a bona-fide #1? I thought that kind of came with the Norris Trophy.

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03-02-2013, 05:43 PM
  #39
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Ottawa doesn`t either, yet they are one of the best defensive clubs in the NHL.
...Erik Karlsson?

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03-02-2013, 05:59 PM
  #40
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Karlsson's the man but he isn't responsible for Ottowa's fantastic defensive #'s. Their goalies have the Jennings all but locked up at this point. Anderson, Lehner and Bishop have been amazing.

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03-02-2013, 06:29 PM
  #41
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Yeah, I think Ottawa's defensive prowess is more because their goalies have been on fire lately.

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03-02-2013, 07:48 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by JackStraw View Post
Karlsson isn't a bona-fide #1? I thought that kind of came with the Norris Trophy.
He isn't in the lineup, nor is Cowen, yet Ottawa is a team that still defends very well.

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03-02-2013, 08:32 PM
  #43
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He isn't in the lineup, nor is Cowen, yet Ottawa is a team that still defends very well.
But he's still on the team. And I'm guessing the Sens miss his offense. Of course, if he's expendable, we'll be happy to take him...

The Flyers have enough good defenders- Timonen, Coburn, Grossman, Schenn, Meszaros... all good in their own end. Only Timonen can jump start the offense though and he may retire after one more year. That's what the Flyers need, preferably in the form of a bona-fide #1 type guy.

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03-02-2013, 08:42 PM
  #44
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I like what Gustaffson has brought with his puck moving abilities. But like what most people have said we are missing a #1 guy. We have a lot of 2/3 but no number 1

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03-02-2013, 08:54 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by rban View Post
I'm gonna ask a question I've already asked in the Schenn thread:

AFTER Timo retires, what if we dump Meszaros and snag Yandle.

Assume a top 4 then of Yandle, Schenn, Grossman and Coburn. ANd a bottom pairing of ... well, anyone cheap. Gustafson, Gervais??

OK that Top 4 plus Bryz. Is that good enough of a defense to win a Cup, yes or no? Assume the forwards score like they're capable of, just evaluate that defense corps and goaltender.

Good enough.... yes or no???
how are we going to "snag" Yandle?

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03-02-2013, 10:06 PM
  #46
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What would you give up for JML and would how big of an upgrade would he be over Gus?

I think the best acquisition the Flyers could make is getting Me back healthy.

Kimo - Shenn
Coburn - Mez
Grossmann - Liles

I would love to get JBo but not sure i would want to see them give up what it will take to get him.

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03-02-2013, 10:31 PM
  #47
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I think they need to stand pat and let Gus get some real time. The seasons short enough as it is that he's still not going to get a ton of minutes if he plays it out with a regular role. It's time for the franchise to **** or get off the pot with him and I think he's ready for a regular shift (and I think they agree given his use in the playoffs last year).

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03-02-2013, 10:44 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I think they need to stand pat and let Gus get some real time. The seasons short enough as it is that he's still not going to get a ton of minutes if he plays it out with a regular role. It's time for the franchise to **** or get off the pot with him and I think he's ready for a regular shift (and I think they agree given his use in the playoffs last year).
any updates on Bourdon?

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03-02-2013, 10:45 PM
  #49
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any updates on Bourdon?
Not sure what exactly you're saying with respect to him. Spell it out for me. I'm slow.

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03-02-2013, 10:51 PM
  #50
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Not sure what exactly you're saying with respect to him. Spell it out for me. I'm slow.
is he still having concussion issues?

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