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Old
03-02-2013, 09:44 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
My apologies.
Thanks, but no need. It certainly had been an emotional night.

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03-02-2013, 09:47 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
too much semantics...

what is a "franchise" goalie then?

Rinne? with his 13-15 record in 28 career post-season games? (contrast that with a 146-78 record in the regular season)

Lundqvist? 25-30 in 55 playoff games... compared to 260-162 in the regular season

Quick has a nice looking 20-12 playoff record... but it was 4-8 before last year's cup run. Is he a "franchise" goalie ahead of those two b/c of one great playoff run?


and if the definition of "franchise" goalie is simply winning a cup, like Niemi/Khabibulin/Giguere/Fleury/osgood... then screw it, I'll take our "very good goalie" and be quite happy to let Edmonton/SJ/Colorado/Pitts thump their chest proudly because they have a "franchise" goalie.
I think it only prove that player are more and more skilled offensively and there is no such a thing as a goaler being the franchise player of his team and dragging it on his shoulder. Offensve and defense are more important than the goalie. There a lot of good NHL goaler right now who if placed with a solid team, will look good and do the job.

Carey is one of them. If Habs are keep playing good, Price is good most of the time. But I simply don't understand all the praise he get, he is far from being our best player. The team is nothing but dependant on Price success to win, they keep showing it this season, unless Price have a REALLY bad game (Like today).

Point being, Price is a no1 goaler, but he doesn't stand out of the other good goaler on the competitive NHL team right now(thoses who will do the playoff). That's why calling him a TOP 3 NHL goaler yet is pushing it. He still have a lot to prove and improve

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Old
03-02-2013, 09:49 PM
  #228
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Would've liked to see Price show why he's getting paid the big bucks tonight and unfortunately it didn't happen. We didn't help him out enough, but he didn't bail the Habs out once tonight. Pretty disappointing. He's been pretty shaky the last 2-3 games, hope he bounces back out if tomorrow against the Bruins, we need him to be better.

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03-02-2013, 09:50 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
too much semantics...

what is a "franchise" goalie then?

Rinne? with his 13-15 record in 28 career post-season games? (contrast that with a 146-78 record in the regular season)

Lundqvist? 25-30 in 55 playoff games... compared to 260-162 in the regular season

Quick has a nice looking 20-12 playoff record... but it was 4-8 before last year's cup run. Is he a "franchise" goalie ahead of those two b/c of one great playoff run?


and if the definition of "franchise" goalie is simply winning a cup, like Niemi/Khabibulin/Giguere/Fleury/osgood... then screw it, I'll take our "very good goalie" and be quite happy to let Edmonton/SJ/Colorado/Pitts thump their chest proudly because they have a "franchise" goalie.
Everyone has their own definition of what a franchise goalie is, and at this point, top X, franchise, allstar, etc those are just words that have different meanings for everyone.

The reality is that the goaltending position at the NHL level is saturated with talent more so than it ever has in the past. There is only 30 spots and there are a lot of quality goaltenders filling them.

Price has never won a cup, he has never been #1 on a team which was first in the conference (the season with Huet doesn't exactly count since he played like 40 games), and he has never been nominated for the hart or the vezina. He has never won 40 games in a season. Which is to say he has accomplished nothing special at the NHL level. So why is Price heralded as a top 5 goalie in the NHL ? Based purely on his abilities ? Wouldn't that be like saying Malakhov was a top 5 dman in the NHL ? Or Kovalev was a top 5 talent in the NHL at some point ?

Meanwhile over the past 5 years, you have guys like Thomas, Quick, Lundqvist, Rinne, Miller, Fleury and Luongo who have won hardware or have won stanley cups. What has Price done to make us say he's the best, or amongst the best, better than those guys ? Why is he better than say Rask or Crawford ? Maybe he is, but has he proven it ?

Everyone is so willing to claim Price is top 3. But I'm waiting for the proof on the ice. The vezina level of play. It hasn't happened. It's not happening right now IMO. I'm waiting for it. I think he has the talent to do it, but goalies are fickle creatures and it's really hard to project how they'll really turn out.

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03-02-2013, 09:51 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
do you watch many games aside from the habs?

name me the goalie who consistently looks good when his defense plays poorly???

Exactly. He is likes the majority of the goaler no1 in this league. They need a good team to look good. Price doesn't stand out, he is just a good no1 goaler. Not a OMG TOP 3 NHL GOALER ROY SECOND COMING FRANCHISE PLAYER.

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03-02-2013, 10:04 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Maelpj View Post
I think it only prove that player are more and more skilled offensively and there is no such a thing as a goaler being the franchise player of his team and dragging it on his shoulder. Offensve and defense are more important than the goalie. There a lot of good NHL goaler right now who if placed with a solid team, will look good and do the job.

Carey is one of them. If Habs are keep playing good, Price is good most of the time. But I simply don't understand all the praise he get, he is far from being our best player. The team is nothing but dependant on Price success to win, they keep showing it this season, unless Price have a REALLY bad game (Like today).

Point being, Price is a no1 goaler, but he doesn't stand out of the other good goaler on the competitive NHL team right now(thoses who will do the playoff). That's why calling him a TOP 3 NHL goaler yet is pushing it. He still have a lot to prove and improve
ok...

- who are your "top 3".

- where do you then put price? Top-5? Top-10? worse than that?

- how many of the goalies you put ahead of him are older than him?



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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Everyone has their own definition of what a franchise goalie is, and at this point, top X, franchise, allstar, etc those are just words that have different meanings for everyone.

The reality is that the goaltending position at the NHL level is saturated with talent more so than it ever has in the past. There is only 30 spots and there are a lot of quality goaltenders filling them.

Price has never won a cup, he has never been #1 on a team which was first in the conference (the season with Huet doesn't exactly count since he played like 40 games), and he has never been nominated for the hart or the vezina. He has never won 40 games in a season. Which is to say he has accomplished nothing special at the NHL level. So why is Price heralded as a top 5 goalie in the NHL ? Based purely on his abilities ? Wouldn't that be like saying Malakhov was a top 5 dman in the NHL ? Or Kovalev was a top 5 talent in the NHL at some point ?

Meanwhile over the past 5 years, you have guys like Thomas, Quick, Lundqvist, Rinne, Miller, Fleury and Luongo who have won hardware or have won stanley cups. What has Price done to make us say he's the best, or amongst the best, better than those guys ? Why is he better than say Rask or Crawford ? Maybe he is, but has he proven it ?

Everyone is so willing to claim Price is top 3. But I'm waiting for the proof on the ice. The vezina level of play. It hasn't happened. It's not happening right now IMO. I'm waiting for it. I think he has the talent to do it, but goalies are fickle creatures and it's really hard to project how they'll really turn out.
- he had a 38 win season... with a defense decimated by injuries (markov 7-games, gorges-36 games) and led by a rookie, 3 aging vets (gill, hamrlik, spacek) and 46 games of the Wiz)

- he was 5th in Vezina voting that season, his first as the undisputed #1 goalie for the team

much like the semantic hair splitting over terms like "franchise goalie", trying to cherry-pick career highlights, or lack thereof, to point out reasons for skepticism are, imo, a matter of subjective preference... everyone is entitled to them, but they hardly make for compelling arguments.

he has put together spans of "vezina level of play". he's 25 years old. he's won both as a pro and internationally. he's regarded outside of montreal as one of the best goalies in the league. he's considered by many as a strong favorite to be the starter for the canadian Olympic team.

Is he definitively a top-3 goalie in the league right now?
Top-5?
Top-10?
i honestly doubt anyone who follows the NHl would put him beyond that..

To each their own subjective opinion.

either way, doesn't really matter. He's signed for 5 more years at the kind of cap hit that would make him very hard to trade if he were to slump bad enough and long enough for the habs to even consider trading him

We're stuck with him, most likely, until he's 30.

nitpicking about wether he's 3rd, 4th, 5th, 9th best in the league is rather pointless, and "franchise" goalie or not, he is the goalie for our franchise.

Personally, i'm very glad that he is and there are very few goalies in the league that I would say the same thing about, especially at his cap hit.

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Old
03-02-2013, 10:08 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Maelpj View Post
Exactly. He is likes the majority of the goaler no1 in this league. They need a good team to look good. Price doesn't stand out, he is just a good no1 goaler. Not a OMG TOP 3 NHL GOALER ROY SECOND COMING FRANCHISE PLAYER.
funny thing is that just as many, if not more, fans complained and criticized Roy while he was in town, even thought he "proved he could win" in his very first year...

of all the things to complain about, and i'm sure many around here feel I complain about too much stuff as it is, complaining about Price seems pretty silly at this stage.

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03-02-2013, 10:10 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Does it make you feel better after posting stuff like this?

I hope so. Because you are going to have the best night ever.

Get over it. Its one game and we got a point out of it.
And I hope your post just made YOU feel better. So it is just one game....but I didn't know we had to wait to 10 before we could have some discussions. You will have to mention that to mods though.....they shouldn't allowed GDT in the first place...

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03-02-2013, 10:17 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
And I hope your post just made YOU feel better. So it is just one game....but I didn't know we had to wait to 10 before we could have some discussions. You will have to mention that to mods though.....they shouldn't allowed GDT in the first place...
I dont mean to pick on you. I guess I have seen a more positive posting style from you. More analysis than sniping.

This was a frustrating night but I am looking on the bright side of things.

Price had a horrible game and we still got a point out of it. There are a lot worse things going on in the world than Price having an off night. It happens to the best of them.

Take care........

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03-02-2013, 10:29 PM
  #235
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Why do these threads pop up every time someone has a bad game/two games? First it was Eller, then DD, then Cole, then Subban, then Gionta.. Now Price. It's a SEASON. Give me a player who isn't a superstar that doesn't have ups and downs all season. 3 regulation losses this year...

A 7-6 loss in OT isn't all on the goalie, ever. Yeah, he is to fault, but to blame him for the entire loss is stupid.

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03-02-2013, 10:31 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
- he had a 38 win season... with a defense decimated by injuries (markov 7-games, gorges-36 games) and led by a rookie, 3 aging vets (gill, hamrlik, spacek) and 46 games of the Wiz)

- he was 5th in Vezina voting that season, his first as the undisputed #1 goalie for the team
Yes that was unequivocally his best season. He was truly stellar that season. Yet, still no nomination for the vezina. that means 4 goalies were still better than him when he was at his best. So when he was at his best he barely made top 5. He has not played at that level since. So logically how is he a top 5 goalie now ?

Quote:
much like the semantic hair splitting over terms like "franchise goalie", trying to cherry-pick career highlights, or lack thereof, to point out reasons for skepticism are, imo, a matter of subjective preference... everyone is entitled to them, but they hardly make for compelling arguments.
I can't say I've seen compelling arguments the other way.

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he has put together spans of "vezina level of play".
Pretty much every goalie put together spans of vezina level of play. You have to do it over a full season to get recognition for it though.

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he's 25 years old. he's won both as a pro and internationally.
It means nothing until it's done at the NHL level. Jamie Storr, Jimmy Waite, etc.

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he's regarded outside of montreal as one of the best goalies in the league.
Speaking about non-compelling arguments. You can find people to say nearly every goalie in the league is the best. If you look long enough you can find 10 quotes saying Luongo is the best in the NHL. You can find 10 for Quick, 10 for Rinne, 10 for Lundqvist, 10 for Thomas (last few years), 10 for Miller, 10 for Brodeur.

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he's considered by many as a strong favorite to be the starter for the canadian Olympic team.
Well then that's settled...

More seriously, I recently heard talks about Brodeur possibly starting for Canada at 52. Brodeur had to come out and say : You guys are crazy if you start a goalie my age.

The competition for being top canadian goalie is not what it used to be. The best goalies in the NHL are american, finnish, swedish, etc.

EDIT:
Speaking of which. He's not even a lock for team canada starter...

On team USA there's no way in hell he'd be the starter. On team Sweden he wouldn't be either. I don't know if he'd beat Rask, Rinne or Kipper for team Finland either. Would he even make the team if he were Finnish? Finding the case for him being top 5 to be even less viable looking at it that way.


Quote:
Is he definitively a top-3 goalie in the league right now?
Top-5?
Top-10?
i honestly doubt anyone who follows the NHl would put him beyond that..
I think a case can't be made for him being top 5. Like I said, at his highest level of play, he was voted #5 for the vezina by other GMs in the league (it's GMs who vote the vezina right?). So at his best, at his peak, he made the cut at top 5 that year. He has not replicated that level of play since for a full season so I don't see how he can be top 5 now.

Quote:
To each their own subjective opinion.
Sure. Do I have the right to mine ?
Quote:
either way, doesn't really matter. He's signed for 5 more years at the kind of cap hit that would make him very hard to trade if he were to slump bad enough and long enough for the habs to even consider trading him

We're stuck with him, most likely, until he's 30.

nitpicking about wether he's 3rd, 4th, 5th, 9th best in the league is rather pointless, and "franchise" goalie or not, he is the goalie for our franchise.

Personally, i'm very glad that he is and there are very few goalies in the league that I would say the same thing about, especially at his cap hit.
I'm fine with that.

I'm just tired of hearing how Price is elite though. Being in the top 25-33% of a group is not being elite. Don't you need to be at least in the top 10% to be elite ? For a goalie that means being top 3. People say there are no goalie they'd rather have. Ok, maybe so. But that's different than his actual accomplishments. It's different than his current level of play. For example, I think Lundqvist has been better the past 5 years. Would I rather have him, probably not since he's older and Price is only 26 and about to enter some 3-4 years of prime time. But I just don't think he's there yet. I wish people would admit that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saundies View Post
Why do these threads pop up every time someone has a bad game/two games? First it was Eller, then DD, then Cole, then Subban, then Gionta.. Now Price. It's a SEASON. Give me a player who isn't a superstar that doesn't have ups and downs all season. 3 regulation losses this year...

A 7-6 loss in OT isn't all on the goalie, ever. Yeah, he is to fault, but to blame him for the entire loss is stupid.
This thread was made way before the game tonight.


Last edited by E = CH²: 03-02-2013 at 10:46 PM.
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03-02-2013, 10:40 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I'm just tired of hearing how Price is elite though. Being in the top 25-33% of a group is not being elite. Don't you need to be at least in the top 10% to be elite ? For a goalie that means being top 3. People say there are no goalie they'd rather have. Ok, maybe so. But that's different than his actual accomplishments. It's different than his current level of play. For example, I think Lundqvist has been better the past 5 years. Would I rather have him, probably not since he's older and Price is only 26 and about to enter some 3-4 years of prime time. But I just don't think he's there yet. I wish people would admit that.



This thread was made way before the game tonight.
You know why you hear Price is elite? Because he is... you don't hear it at all if he isn't. Nobody's going to try to argue with you that Devyn Dubnyk is an elite goalie... Same as Corey Crawford from Chicago, etc.

All of the goalies you mentioned: Brodeur, Luongo, Miller, Lundqvist, Quick... have you watched them play these year? Most of them have been brutal, besides Luongo... and even with how well he's playing, he's not even considered "elite" anymore because the Canucks don't even want him as their #1.

The goalie I would say is the best in the league right now consistently is Rinne.

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03-02-2013, 10:54 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Yes that was unequivocally his best season. He was truly stellar that season. Yet, still no nomination for the vezina. that means 4 goalies were still better than him when he was at his best. So when he was at his best he barely made top 5. He has not played at that level since. So logically how is he a top 5 goalie now ?
There was actually a fair bit of controversy when he wasn't nominated. He played far more games than almost anyone in the league and still put up great numbers. So he wasn't barely in the top five, he was arguably top three.

As for how is he a top five now as opposed to then? Well Tim Thomas is gone for one thing. Secondly he's continued to log big minutes and still put up solid numbers even on a terrible team. I'm not sure how you think this guy is 'barely top five'...

So far here are the save percentage leaders for the season with goalies who've played 10 games or more:

1 Craig Anderson 15gp .952
2 Corey Crawford 11gp .941
3 Kari Lehtonen 12gp .934
4 Antti Niemi 15gp .930
5 Tuukka Rask 13gp .930
6 James Reimer 10gp .929
7 Viktor Fasth 11gp .926
8 Carey Price 16gp .924
9 Ben Scrivens 13gp .923
10 Niklas Backstrom 14gp .919


No Lundquvist, no Rinne, no Quick... Most of these guys are one offs and many will just fall off soon. Are any of those guys better? No.

No, Price hasn't won a Vezina... but he consistently puts up solid numbers. Jonathan Quick had one great year but unlike Price, he has years where he just doesn't show up. What you get with Price is a consistent goalie who (despite the occassional bad game) is predictable and consistent. I'd much prefer a goalie who's going to consistently be good than have one who has a great year and then an off one and then a great one...

Price is a top three goalie and arguably the best in the league right now.


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03-02-2013, 10:57 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by Saundies View Post
You know why you hear Price is elite? Because he is... you don't hear it at all if he isn't.
At one point in time I'm sure Galileo heard the same argument :

You know why you hear the earth is flat ? Because it is, you wouldn't hear it if it wasn't.

I'm not saying I'm Galileo here, but the argument you brought up is a bit silly.

People say a lot of different things for a lot of different reasons.

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03-02-2013, 11:02 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
At one point in time I'm sure Galileo heard the same argument :

You know why you hear the earth is flat ? Because it is, you wouldn't hear it if it wasn't.

I'm not saying I'm Galileo here, but the argument you brought up is a bit silly.

People say a lot of different things for a lot of different reasons.
The argument you brought up is silly too, the fact that he's not "in the top 10%" of goalies in the league.. Which he is. You said top 3 is 10%, when it's actually top 6 considering there's 60 goalies in the league.

If you don't think Price is at least a top 6 goalie, name the 6 that are better than him undisputedly. If you can't, then by your own definition he is elite.

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03-02-2013, 11:11 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Yes that was unequivocally his best season. He was truly stellar that season. Yet, still no nomination for the vezina. that means 4 goalies were still better than him when he was at his best. So when he was at his best he barely made top 5. He has not played at that level since. So logically how is he a top 5 goalie now ?



I can't say I've seen compelling arguments the other way.



Pretty much every goalie put together spans of vezina level of play. You have to do it over a full season to get recognition for it though.



It means nothing until it's done at the NHL level. Jamie Storr, Jimmy Waite, etc.



Speaking about non-compelling arguments. You can find people to say nearly every goalie in the league is the best. If you look long enough you can find 10 quotes saying Luongo is the best in the NHL. You can find 10 for Quick, 10 for Rinne, 10 for Lundqvist, 10 for Thomas (last few years), 10 for Miller, 10 for Brodeur.



Well then that's settled...

More seriously, I recently heard talks about Brodeur possibly starting for Canada at 52. Brodeur had to come out and say : You guys are crazy if you start a goalie my age.

The competition for being top canadian goalie is not what it used to be. The best goalies in the NHL are american, finnish, swedish, etc.

EDIT:
Speaking of which. He's not even a lock for team canada starter...

On team USA there's no way in hell he'd be the starter. On team Sweden he wouldn't be either. I don't know if he'd beat Rask, Rinne or Kipper for team Finland either. Would he even make the team if he were Finnish? Finding the case for him being top 5 to be even less viable looking at it that way.




I think a case can't be made for him being top 5. Like I said, at his highest level of play, he was voted #5 for the vezina by other GMs in the league (it's GMs who vote the vezina right?). So at his best, at his peak, he made the cut at top 5 that year. He has not replicated that level of play since for a full season so I don't see how he can be top 5 now.



Sure. Do I have the right to mine ?


I'm fine with that.

I'm just tired of hearing how Price is elite though. Being in the top 25-33% of a group is not being elite. Don't you need to be at least in the top 10% to be elite ? For a goalie that means being top 3. People say there are no goalie they'd rather have. Ok, maybe so. But that's different than his actual accomplishments. It's different than his current level of play. For example, I think Lundqvist has been better the past 5 years. Would I rather have him, probably not since he's older and Price is only 26 and about to enter some 3-4 years of prime time. But I just don't think he's there yet. I wish people would admit that.



This thread was made way before the game tonight.
you can find many people who will argue that Lundqvist ("team is good", "playoff track record is bad", "overrated"), Quick ("got hot at right time", "got lucky", "look how average he is now"), Rinne ("coach/system", "no pressure", "no playoff track record"), Rask ("coach/system", "unproven"), Luongo ("choker", "team is great", "overrated") et. et. aren't "elite" or "as good as people claim they are" as well.

you call him top 25%, I disagree.

you think "elite" is top-3... I say at what exact point in time? Today? Last years playoffs? Last 2-3-4-6-10 seasons?

no matter how you want to label it, it will always be a subjective frame of reference. Even when/if Price does magically fit you're "top-3 is elite" criteria, someone else will make just as much of a fuss that he isn't, and will break out all sorts of arguments to that point.

again, I ask you who is your "top-3"?

and immediately I would then present you with valid reasons why goalies X-Y-Z are better than 1 or more of your choices, based on stat group 1-2-3 which CLEARLY show that my choice is better.

I mean, it's silly... it's completely subjective.

make your case for which goalies you are convinced would be better options than Price right now and for the next 5 years, and we can dance around that... far more interesting than the stupid "he's elite, no he's not" back & forths.


edit:
and how ridiculous is it to point out that he "hasn't replicated his top-5 status among league gm's"... that was 2 years ago... last year the entire team was a train wreck... Price's sv% this year is a touch below last year, and yet his odds of being a Vezina finalist, let alone top-5, are WAY better given how well the team is doing. It's a team sport, the goalie doesn't exist in a bubble.


Last edited by Miller Time: 03-02-2013 at 11:16 PM.
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03-02-2013, 11:12 PM
  #242
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There was actually a fair bit of controversy when he wasn't nominated. He played far more games than almost anyone in the league and still put up great numbers. So he wasn't barely in the top five, he was arguably top three.
Well, the voting was done by all 30 GMs. I don't think there can be that much controversy.

Quote:
As for how is he a top five now as opposed to then? Well Tim Thomas is gone for one thing. Secondly he's continued to log big minutes and still put up solid numbers even on a terrible team. I'm not sure how you think this guy is 'barely top five'...
He hasn't played at the same level as 2010-11. He was top 5 that year. So you're telling me that despite playing worse he climbed in the rankings by default because Thomas is gone and others have had difficult seasons?

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So far here are the save percentage leaders for the season with goalies who've played 10 games or more:

1 Craig Anderson 15gp .952
2 Corey Crawford 11gp .941
3 Kari Lehtonen 12gp .934
4 Antti Niemi 15gp .930
5 Tuukka Rask 13gp .930
6 James Reimer 10gp .929
7 Viktor Fasth 11gp .926
8 Carey Price 16gp .924
9 Ben Scrivens 13gp .923
10 Niklas Backstrom 14gp .919


No Lundquvist, no Rinne, no Quick... Most of these guys are one offs and many will just fall off soon.
These numbers are wrong and did not include tonight's game. Price has a save % of 0.915 and stands at #16 for goalies who have played at least 10 games.

Rinne, Lundqvist are actually above him despite this not being their best performances.

As for Quick he had huge injury problems this summer and is coming off a cup win, vezina and conn smythe. It's hardly fair to judge his drop in performance in a lockout shortened season. He's in a completely different situation than Price. I say he rebounds big time next season.


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No, Price hasn't won a Vezina... but he consistently puts up solid numbers. Jonathan Quick had one great year but unlike Price, he has years where he just doesn't show up. What you get with Price is a consistent goalie who (despite the occassional bad game) is predictable and consistent. I'd much prefer a goalie who's going to consistently be good than have one who has a great year and then an off one and then a great one...
That is just not true. Price has had years where he wasn't very good at all. The year we went deep with Halak, Price was garbage. Last year he was average nothing more.

Similarly Quick has had fluctuations in his play. The difference is that Quick managed to get into a gear that Price hasn't gotten into yet. So that makes him inconsistent ? Common

Quote:
Price is a top three goalie and arguably the best in the league right now.
I just don't see it. Not at all.

If you had said : "with 1-2 exceptions, there's no other goalie I'd rather have going into the future" then I'd have had less difficulties conceding the point. But Price is certainly not playing like a top 3 goalie in the NHL.

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03-02-2013, 11:24 PM
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you can find many people who will argue that Lundqvist ("team is good", "playoff track record is bad", "overrated"), Quick ("got hot at right time", "got lucky", "look how average he is now"), Rinne ("coach/system", "no pressure", "no playoff track record"), Rask ("coach/system", "unproven"), Luongo ("choker", "team is great", "overrated") et. et. aren't "elite" or "as good as people claim they are" as well.

you call him top 25%, I disagree.

you think "elite" is top-3... I say at what exact point in time? Today? Last years playoffs? Last 2-3-4-6-10 seasons?

no matter how you want to label it, it will always be a subjective frame of reference. Even when/if Price does magically fit you're "top-3 is elite" criteria, someone else will make just as much of a fuss that he isn't, and will break out all sorts of arguments to that point.

again, I ask you who is your "top-3"?

and immediately I would then present you with valid reasons why goalies X-Y-Z are better than 1 or more of your choices, based on stat group 1-2-3 which CLEARLY show that my choice is better.

I mean, it's silly... it's completely subjective.

make your case for which goalies you are convinced would be better options than Price right now and for the next 5 years, and we can dance around that... far more interesting than the stupid "he's elite, no he's not" back & forths.
Lundqvist
Rinne
Quick

Have clearly proven more over the same period or for longer. I'd have added Thomas, but he's retired.

After these 3, I say there are about 5-10 goalies all fighting for recognition in the top 10 who have wild fluctuation in their level of play or are relatively unproven.

So these 5-10 goalies, I would not say that they are legit top 5 goalies. they haven't really proven themselves to be. They are just fighting for it. Price is in that group, along with guys like Brodeur, Rask, Miller, Luongo, Neimi, Backstrom, Halak, etc.

It's like I said earlier, the goaltending position is crowded with talent. There are only 30 spots for the 30 bests. The truth is that ranking them over the past 3-5 years is a difficult enterprise. I think the best way for me would be to take the vezina voting for each season and tally the pts and see where guys come out. Anyone has a site where you can see the ranking for the different awards ? I've never been able to find one.

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03-02-2013, 11:25 PM
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Since 2010 with minimum 150 games played:

Team GP Sv%
1 Tim Thomas 2010 2012 BOS 159 0.926
2 Henrik Lundqvist 2010 2013 NYR 219 0.924
3 Pekka Rinne 2010 2013 NSH 214 0.922
4 Tomas Vokoun 2010 2013 TOT 176 0.921
5 Ryan Miller 2010 2013 BUF 215 0.920
6 Roberto Luongo 2010 2013 VAN 193 0.920
7 Carey Price 2010 2013 MTL 194 0.919
8 Jaroslav Halak 2010 2013 TOT 157 0.919
9 Antti Niemi 2010 2013 TOT 183 0.918
10 Kari Lehtonen 2010 2013 DAL 153 0.918


Thomas is gone. Vokoun is past his prime.

Lunqvist and Rinne have an edge... then there are the others. Notice that the other goalies all play for strong teams except for maybe Lehtonen who's played about 50 games less.

Price is the youngest of this group and has the disadvantage of playing for a last place team. BTW, this includes the year Price only had 13 wins.

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03-02-2013, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Lundqvist
Rinne
Quick

Have clearly proven more over the same period or for longer. I'd have added Thomas, but he's retired.

After these 3, I say there are about 5-10 goalies all fighting for recognition in the top 10 who have wild fluctuation in their level of play or are relatively unproven.

So these 5-10 goalies, I would not say that they are legit top 5 goalies. they haven't really proven themselves to be. They are just fighting for it. Price is in that group, along with guys like Brodeur, Rask, Miller, Luongo, Neimi, Backstrom, Halak, etc.

It's like I said earlier, the goaltending position is crowded with talent. There are only 30 spots for the 30 bests. The truth is that ranking them over the past 3-5 years is a difficult enterprise. I think the best way for me would be to take the vezina voting for each season and tally the pts and see where guys come out. Anyone has a site where you can see the ranking for the different awards ? I've never been able to find one.
There are 60 goalies in the NHL... you can't just throw out 30 goalies because they don't start every night.

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03-02-2013, 11:34 PM
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Since 2011 minimum 120 games:

1 Pekka Rinne 2011 2013 NSH NHL 156 0.925
2 Henrik Lundqvist 2011 2013 NYR NHL 146 0.925
3 Roberto Luongo 2011 2013 VAN NHL 125 0.923
4 Jonathan Quick 2011 2013 LAK NHL 144 0.922
5 Carey Price 2011 2013 MTL NHL 153 0.920
6 Antti Niemi 2011 2013 SJS NHL 144 0.919
7 Kari Lehtonen 2011 2013 DAL NHL 141 0.919
8 Cam Ward 2011 2013 CAR NHL 157 0.918
9 Craig Anderson 2011 2013 TOT NHL 129 0.918
10 Ryan Miller 2011 2013 BUF NHL 146 0.916

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03-02-2013, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
If you had said : "with 1-2 exceptions, there's no other goalie I'd rather have going into the future" then I'd have had less difficulties conceding the point. But Price is certainly not playing like a top 3 goalie in the NHL.
Wins
Price
Rask
Bryzgalov

GAA
10 or more games

Crawford
Anderson
Rask

15 or more games
Niemi
Rinne
Price

SV%
10 or more games

Anderson
Niemi
Crawford

15 or more games
Anderson
Niemi
Rinne


we can argue round and round about what stats reflect a goalies performance, but unless you can assert that you've actually watched a high volume of a large number of NHL starting goalies this year... or have some complex detailed statistical analysis clearly backing up your top-3...

the certainty of Price NOT being top-3 you cling to is pure speculation... and ignores the simple statistical reality that, right now, fewer than 3 goalies in the league win as much or keep the puck out of the net/game as well as he has this year.

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03-02-2013, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Lundqvist
Rinne
Quick

Have clearly proven more over the same period or for longer. I'd have added Thomas, but he's retired.

After these 3, I say there are about 5-10 goalies all fighting for recognition in the top 10 who have wild fluctuation in their level of play or are relatively unproven.

So these 5-10 goalies, I would not say that they are legit top 5 goalies. they haven't really proven themselves to be. They are just fighting for it. Price is in that group, along with guys like Brodeur, Rask, Miller, Luongo, Neimi, Backstrom, Halak, etc.

It's like I said earlier, the goaltending position is crowded with talent. There are only 30 spots for the 30 bests. The truth is that ranking them over the past 3-5 years is a difficult enterprise. I think the best way for me would be to take the vezina voting for each season and tally the pts and see where guys come out. Anyone has a site where you can see the ranking for the different awards ? I've never been able to find one.
Quick had a dream season but apart from that he's nowhere close to Price.

Lundqvist and Rinne? Okay, I can understand that argument. Beyond that... I don't think anyone is clearly better. And both those guys were playing behind significantly better teams.

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03-02-2013, 11:47 PM
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Price has been way off for most of the season. I've noticed it for awhile now but the team has played so damn well that most people won't recognize it. His technique is SOOOOOOO sloppy it's hard to watch him sometimes. And it frustrates me when he does what I call " posing" like on the overtime goal against Pittsburgh where he looks like he's trying to look good for the camera man instead of focusing on the puck. I love Carey. He's a great goalie. But he has a lot to work on at the moment. He's not a kid anymore. Not when he's making $6.5 million to he the starting goalie in Montreal. He better get it together.

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03-02-2013, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Lundqvist
Rinne
Quick

Have clearly proven more over the same period or for longer. I'd have added Thomas, but he's retired.

After these 3, I say there are about 5-10 goalies all fighting for recognition in the top 10 who have wild fluctuation in their level of play or are relatively unproven.

So these 5-10 goalies, I would not say that they are legit top 5 goalies. they haven't really proven themselves to be. They are just fighting for it. Price is in that group, along with guys like Brodeur, Rask, Miller, Luongo, Neimi, Backstrom, Halak, etc.

It's like I said earlier, the goaltending position is crowded with talent. There are only 30 spots for the 30 bests. The truth is that ranking them over the past 3-5 years is a difficult enterprise. I think the best way for me would be to take the vezina voting for each season and tally the pts and see where guys come out. Anyone has a site where you can see the ranking for the different awards ? I've never been able to find one.
please tell me that this was just a mental slip up?

or do you really consider Quick's 1 very good playoff run to be more "proof" than Brodeur's resume


Lundqvist and Rinne have both proven to be unable to carry over regular season success to playoff success, much like Price.

at the same age, Rinne had "proven" himself enough to have played 1 NHL game.
Lundqvist had 1 solid regular season (30 wins/53 games), followed by a brutal 0-3, .835sv % playoff outing.

until last year playoffs, Quick's career was similar -albeit less accomplished at the same age- to Price's.


This year, Price has more wins than the 3, better SV% & more shutouts than 2 of the 3, and has a better GAA than 1 of them



Yes, Rinne & Lundqvist were better, from 27-31 years old, than Price was from 22-25years old, but not that much better despite playing for better teams arguably every year. Quick was better for 1 playoff run...

and that is how you arrive at the CLEAR assertion that Price is not, right now, at their level? (let alone the 5-year window that we have with Price).

sorry, but not convincing in the least.

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