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Bossy vs. Makarov

View Poll Results: ?
Bossy 40 46.51%
Makarov 37 43.02%
Too close to call 9 10.47%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-01-2013, 06:56 PM
  #26
CM Lundqvist
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Career wise? Bossy. Even as a Ranger fan, what Bossy did was ASTONISHING. People on these boards undermine what he did. In a minimum of 700 games, Bossy's goals per game percentage (.76 - 573 goals in 752 games) is the highest of all time and when his back went out, so did the Islanders. They started their rise to prominence when he came up and when he retired, they faded into near oblivion.

Talent wise? Makarov. Makarov was one of the most talented players in the world that time and there is a very strong argument that he was the best player on those Soviet Teams. I didn't get to see him in Russia, but I've watched highlights and from what I saw of him in the NHL, but I think if he came over during the 80's, I think he'd be a near 100 point player a year.

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03-01-2013, 07:40 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
The Soviets only played 6 games because they lost in the semi finals against Canada. Sweden and Canada made the finals, they are the only teams who played 8 games (5 round robin + 1 semi final + 2 final games).
Sometimes the answer is so obvious, it's easy to miss...

Quote:
Originally Posted by redbull View Post
True, Krutov just faded faster once he got to North America, rapidly lost his figure

I don't recall the specifics about the canada Cups but I know the USSR had been known to run up scores against poorer teams in international play, inflating stats. As I recall, Bossy played behind 99 those Canada Cups, didn't get prime PP time and big minutes. I think the last one was played with B.Sutter and Tonelli when Trotts played for the US Team. Makarov and the big five were on the ice together for all big minutes and games - and he & they were deadly.

I will look it up when I get a chance.

I still say Bossy who averaged 61 goals per 80 games over his career is the better player.
Well, Fetisov didn't play at all in 1984, but the Green Unit generally played together when healthy, although they occasionally had a different center than Larionov.

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Old
03-02-2013, 08:31 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
Wow, pretty shocked at the results. For some reason I have a feeling that Makarov is rated lower by Russians than you guys. For some reason I would think Larionov would be ranked higher. I have no proof of this or anything. I'll ask my dad (though he's obviously not the authority on this).
I'm quite certain he wouldn't. I think only YOUNG Russians who didn't see them in the 1980s might prefer Larionov.

For a non-Russian who watched Makarov and Larionov in international competition throughout the 1980s (i.e. me), there isn't any debate; Makarov was simply way better than Larionov. And Krutov was better than Larionov as well.


Last edited by VMBM: 03-02-2013 at 09:05 AM.
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03-02-2013, 08:54 AM
  #29
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Voted for Makarov.

Both are among my favourite players, but here I just have to prefer a guy who I think was more talented and versatile (offensively) and had way more of the 'wow factor'.
Personally I think that Bossy benefited more from Trottier than Makarov from Larionov. One can always argue that Makarov had the Soviet five men unit(s), but besides Trottier, Bossy also had brilliant players around him; Potvin, Gillies etc.; NY Islanders was a pretty good team, eh?! And I happen to believe that Makarov didn't need any particular player(s) to shine; he was a 1-on-1 wizard, brilliant passer and skater and deadly accurate shooter.

The edge in goal-scoring ability goes to Bossy, but other than that, it's Makarov for me.

PS. If I put a lot of weight to NHL careers, then it would be Bossy all the way of course.

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03-02-2013, 02:35 PM
  #30
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Makarov was incredible but I take Bossy.

Makarov was flashier and more complete but Bossy's sniping abilities are next to impossible to match.

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03-02-2013, 03:31 PM
  #31
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I'd take Makarov over Bossy any day.

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Old
03-02-2013, 07:23 PM
  #32
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Voted Bossy. In the end it was because Bossy played more often against better competition. If you were a Red Army player, you had very few games in which you would really be tested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Bossy did what he did in the superior league, but Makarov ROFLMAOwned the Soviet league at the time, so I honestly don't see what more Makarov could have done domestically other than be born somewhere else.
Keep in mind, even with the deck stacked heavily in Red Army's favour, as an individual, Makarov's dominance over the Russian league wasn't Gretzky-like. It was slightly better than what Bossy would have looked like if Gretzky were to be removed from the 1980s NHL.

Makarov should have lapped the field given his placement in a league where he was the top offensive player on the only team allowed to win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Okay here's a question, what does a normal stat line of Makarov's look like to you in the 1980s?
If we take Makarov from a 256 GF environment and put him in Bossy's 332 GF environment, I'd say the results look kinda like:

Season TmGF (Actual) TmGF (NYI) Team G A Pts
1978-79 277 358 CSKA Moscow 23.3 27.1 50.4
1979-80 306 281 CSKA Moscow 26.6 35.8 62.4
1980-81 299 355 CSKA Moscow 49.9 43.9 93.8
1981-82 269 385 CSKA Moscow 45.8 61.5 107.3
1982-83 261 302 CSKA Moscow 28.9 19.7 48.6
1983-84 286 357 CSKA Moscow 44.9 46.2 91.1
1984-85 221 345 CSKA Moscow 40.6 60.9 101.5
1985-86 219 327 CSKA Moscow 44.8 47.8 92.6
1986-87 223 279 CSKA Moscow 26.3 40.0 66.3
1987-88 230 334 CSKA Moscow 33.4 65.3 98.7
1988-89 224 334 CSKA Moscow 31.3 49.2 80.5
1989-90 348 348 Calgary Flames 24.0 62.0 86.0
1990-91 344 344 Calgary Flames 30.0 49.0 79.0
1991-92 296 296 Calgary Flames 22.0 48.0 70.0
1992-93 322 322 Calgary Flames 18.0 39.0 57.0
1993-94 252 252 San Jose Sharks 30.0 38.0 68.0
1994-95 129 129 San Jose Sharks 10.0 14.0 24.0
529.8 747.5 1277.3

For the years Bossy missed I used 334 GF from the 77-78 NYI team, which was marginally better than the average NYI actual Team GF for the Bossy era.

It's not perfect, but it's around where I think Makarov could have been, if he had the good fortune to have played with one of the better NHL teams for most of his career. NHL Makarov would be Hall of Fame calibre, but not quite as good as Mike Bossy, even with the added longevity.

Top Scorers 1979-95
Rk Player GP G A PTS
1 Wayne Gretzky 1173 814 1692 2506
2 Mark Messier 1127 492 877 1369
3 Paul Coffey 1078 358 978 1336
4 Dale Hawerchuk 1055 489 825 1314
5 Jari Kurri 1028 565 731 1296
NHL Makarov ? 530 747 1277
6 Denis Savard 1063 451 812 1263
7 Peter Stastny 977 450 789 1239
8 Raymond Bourque 1146 323 908 1231
9 Mario Lemieux 599 494 717 1211
10 Mike Gartner 1208 629 562 1191
11 Steve Yzerman 862 481 679 1160

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Old
03-02-2013, 08:47 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I voted Makarov. My reasoning:

1) They were equals in the Canada Cups. Bossy did what he did in the superior league, but Makarov ROFLMAOwned the Soviet league at the time, so I honestly don't see what more Makarov could have done domestically other than be born somewhere else.

2) Makarov was easily the best forward in Europe in the 1980s, and we saw how well the Europeans did in the NHL after communism fell.

3) 1+2 make it tough to figure out who was better in his prime, but Makarov has a substantial advantage over Bossy in terms of longevity. This is the justification for picking Makarov.

4) I'll be honest - given the history of the history board (how's that for meta?), I expected Bossy to win this poll easily, which made it easier for me to vote for Makarov. I'm honestly surprised the voting is so close. But I don't think it's unreasonable to vote for either one. Bossy is obviously a more known commodity.
This is my line of thinking as well pretty much.

As much as it's hard to figure out the individual value of each player on that Russian 5 man Unit, most would agree that Makarov was the best.

I'm not sure that Makarov would have scored as much in the 80's NHL as Bossy did, but I'm also not convinced that Bossy's career would ahve been nearly as good is he hadn't slipped to 15th in the 77 draft and a perfect position for him by playing shotgun to Trottier and on those stacked NYI teams.

I would take Makarov in the poll today but these guys are very close and I'm open to changing my opinion on them.

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Old
03-02-2013, 09:02 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Makarov was not that much better than Krutov on the KLM line.

Not that Makarov wasn't great, but Krutov is severely underrated.
Krutov might be under rated in terms of his production on the KLM line but that's about it.

There is a lot of evidence that Krutov was the weak link of that unit as an individual and only had success due to the structure and nature of the Russian systems.

Of all the players considered as in the top 50 of their positions or top 150-200 top forwards of all time, Krutov is one of the last players I would want to build a team around and most would have problems disagreeing with that comment I would think.

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03-02-2013, 09:18 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
I'm quite certain he wouldn't. I think only YOUNG Russians who didn't see them in the 1980s might prefer Larionov.

For a non-Russian who watched Makarov and Larionov in international competition throughout the 1980s (i.e. me), there isn't any debate; Makarov was simply way better than Larionov. And Krutov was better than Larionov as well.
What you say is probably true but don't most Russians, especially coaches , remember that Center in their system was much like a mid fielder in soccer and that wingers were more like strikers, so that production isn't always the best measurement.

I'm a huge career guy and would take them

Makarov
Larinov







Krutov

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03-02-2013, 09:24 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
What you say is probably true but don't most Russians, especially coaches , remember that Center in their system was much like a mid fielder in soccer and that wingers were more like strikers, so that production isn't always the best measurement.

I'm a huge career guy and would take them

Makarov
Larinov







Krutov
this is how I see it. Much more to a two-way center than simple numbers.

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03-02-2013, 10:07 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
Voted Bossy. In the end it was because Bossy played more often against better competition. If you were a Red Army player, you had very few games in which you would really be tested.



Keep in mind, even with the deck stacked heavily in Red Army's favour, as an individual, Makarov's dominance over the Russian league wasn't Gretzky-like. It was slightly better than what Bossy would have looked like if Gretzky were to be removed from the 1980s NHL.

Makarov should have lapped the field given his placement in a league where he was the top offensive player on the only team allowed to win.



If we take Makarov from a 256 GF environment and put him in Bossy's 332 GF environment, I'd say the results look kinda like:

Season TmGF (Actual) TmGF (NYI) Team G A Pts
1978-79 277 358 CSKA Moscow 23.3 27.1 50.4
1979-80 306 281 CSKA Moscow 26.6 35.8 62.4
1980-81 299 355 CSKA Moscow 49.9 43.9 93.8
1981-82 269 385 CSKA Moscow 45.8 61.5 107.3
1982-83 261 302 CSKA Moscow 28.9 19.7 48.6
1983-84 286 357 CSKA Moscow 44.9 46.2 91.1
1984-85 221 345 CSKA Moscow 40.6 60.9 101.5
1985-86 219 327 CSKA Moscow 44.8 47.8 92.6
1986-87 223 279 CSKA Moscow 26.3 40.0 66.3
1987-88 230 334 CSKA Moscow 33.4 65.3 98.7
1988-89 224 334 CSKA Moscow 31.3 49.2 80.5
1989-90 348 348 Calgary Flames 24.0 62.0 86.0
1990-91 344 344 Calgary Flames 30.0 49.0 79.0
1991-92 296 296 Calgary Flames 22.0 48.0 70.0
1992-93 322 322 Calgary Flames 18.0 39.0 57.0
1993-94 252 252 San Jose Sharks 30.0 38.0 68.0
1994-95 129 129 San Jose Sharks 10.0 14.0 24.0
529.8 747.5 1277.3

For the years Bossy missed I used 334 GF from the 77-78 NYI team, which was marginally better than the average NYI actual Team GF for the Bossy era.

It's not perfect, but it's around where I think Makarov could have been, if he had the good fortune to have played with one of the better NHL teams for most of his career. NHL Makarov would be Hall of Fame calibre, but not quite as good as Mike Bossy, even with the added longevity.

Top Scorers 1979-95
Rk Player GP G A PTS
1 Wayne Gretzky 1173 814 1692 2506
2 Mark Messier 1127 492 877 1369
3 Paul Coffey 1078 358 978 1336
4 Dale Hawerchuk 1055 489 825 1314
5 Jari Kurri 1028 565 731 1296
NHL Makarov ? 530 747 1277
6 Denis Savard 1063 451 812 1263
7 Peter Stastny 977 450 789 1239
8 Raymond Bourque 1146 323 908 1231
9 Mario Lemieux 599 494 717 1211
10 Mike Gartner 1208 629 562 1191
11 Steve Yzerman 862 481 679 1160
good work but I would add one thing here.

The NYI in 78 had 1.70 assists awarded for every goal scored.

I took just 2 seasons for Makarov (his highest assist ones) and in 82 there were 1.02 assists per goal on his club team and in 88 there was 1.06 assists per goal.

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Old
03-03-2013, 04:39 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Passchendaele View Post
I somehow find that quote quite silly.

So you think Makarov would have scored 130-140 points each year in the 80s?
Yes i believe so, he probably would have been the 2e best scorer of the 80s after Gretzky..

Plus people here dismiss what Makarov did in the Soviet league (he led that league in scoring 9 times) and for NT way to quickly, Makarov is a top 15 player of all time.

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Old
03-03-2013, 05:47 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NMF78 View Post
Yes i believe so, he probably would have been the 2e best scorer of the 80s after Gretzky..

Plus people here dismiss what Makarov did in the Soviet league (he led that league in scoring 9 times) and for NT way to quickly, Makarov is a top 15 player of all time.
Right, Makarov led the Soviet league in scoring every single season during his prime, except the one where he was injured. It wasn't Gretzky domination, but I don't think any player but Gretzky dominated the scoring charts of his domestic league as much or more than Makarov.

The statement that if you removed Gretzky, Bossy would dominate the NHL only slightly less than Makarov dominated the Soviet league is just wrong.

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Old
03-03-2013, 06:30 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Put Bossy in Russia and he probably has trouble making their national team, let alone usurping Makarov on the top line. Makarov makes team Canada quite easily.

Lets just say, in the 80's the only Canadian forward with more success was Wayne Gretzky. Makarov was way better than Stastny, the nhl's second leading scorer in the 80's.
Wow, this is pretty dumb!

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03-03-2013, 08:22 AM
  #41
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I consider Makarov to be the best Russian player of all time, so the choice is easy. W/ all due respect to Bossy.

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03-03-2013, 08:52 AM
  #42
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Wow, this is pretty dumb!
Well dumb is not understanding the way the Russians played hockey and what skills they valued.

The Russians valued speed and creativity. Bossy wasnt particularly strong in those two areas. Bossy was a great NHL player, but I don't see his style and skating jiving with the Russian team.


Last edited by Psycho Papa Joe: 03-03-2013 at 09:00 AM.
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03-03-2013, 10:57 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Well dumb is not understanding the way the Russians played hockey and what skills they valued.

The Russians valued speed and creativity. Bossy wasnt particularly strong in those two areas. Bossy was a great NHL player, but I don't see his style and skating jiving with the Russian team.
Oh yeah, Krutov was more creative and much more faster...

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03-03-2013, 11:16 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by xIsle View Post
Oh yeah, Krutov was more creative and much more faster...
In terms of creativity it's debatable as creativity takes on many elements. However, I'd say Krutov was a slightly better passer, and certainly a better skater than Bossy.

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03-03-2013, 11:40 AM
  #45
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In terms of creativity it's debatable as creativity takes on many elements. However, I'd say Krutov was a slightly better passer, and certainly a better skater than Bossy.
Krutov was certainly a much "beautiful" skater to watch but I don't think he was that much faster than Bossy. Plus people should stop underestimated Bossy. It's almost a joke...

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03-03-2013, 11:55 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
I'd take Makarov over Bossy any day.
Same here. Hard to argue with the NHL numbers when all is said and done, and Bossy certainly had some compete level to him, but from everything I have seen of Makarov, and read through the years, he might deserve to be held in a slightly higher "calibre" tier with guys like Fedorov. Maybe he wouldn't have worked as well with Trottier (imagining the "in a vacuum" replacement of one by the other), who knows, but I'm of the belief that a team's depth chart becomes even stronger by replacing a guy like Bossy with a guy like Makarov.

"Problem" is, that all-time rankings heavily weigh "career value" (and value NHL career numbers and championships almost infinitely more than those from other leagues for lots of people), so it's still hard to imagine a North American majority (HFboards) voting Makarov above Bossy "all-time".

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03-03-2013, 12:06 PM
  #47
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I said too close to call. I think Bossy is overrated and Sergei underrated, but I'm not sure if together they account for the huge canonical gap that exists.

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03-03-2013, 12:47 PM
  #48
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Makarov was the one of the five in the green unit that produced the best when first coming over. Unfortunately he was amongst the oldest of them and just missed the train that Larionov later took concerning what type of training it takes to maintain a high level when 35. I dont think that knowledge was there in 1993 let alone 1989, how to survive in the new NHL. Larionov showed that he probably would have been a 90-100 point player in his prime, with good defense. Makarov was A LOT better than Igor offensively.


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03-03-2013, 01:52 PM
  #49
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I think what sets me apart with Bossy is that the man was remarkably consistent. 9 straight years of 50+ goals, peaking at 69. It isn't often that someone has a record Wayne Gretzky even fell short of acheiving. I don't deny Makarov's talent but like I said we SAW what Bossy could do in the best league in the world and we can only speculate what Makarov could do. Also, the postseason is where Bossy shone perhaps even better. 85 playoff goals, good for 6th all-time despite playing less games than everyone above him. 0.65 GPG in the playoffs, bested by only Mario Lemieux.

Could Makarov finish in points like this:
Points - 2, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6
Goals - 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5, 7

That's a pretty tall order from a guy who didn't play any better in short top notch tournaments than the guy we are comparing him to. Bossy is a lot like Phil Esposito or any other player who didn't look like Gilbert Perreault on the ice. He was effective and I think sometimes we take marks away from a person like that just because another player may have looked prettier doing it. Bossy still had talent, but he had a nose for the net that was rivaled by few and I'm not even sure Makarov could equal that on a season to season basis.

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03-03-2013, 02:09 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Could Makarov finish in points like this:
Points - 2, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6
Goals - 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5, 7
Makarov finished 1st in Soviet league scoring 9 times.

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