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Bossy vs. Makarov

View Poll Results: ?
Bossy 40 46.51%
Makarov 37 43.02%
Too close to call 9 10.47%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-03-2013, 04:26 PM
  #51
blogofmike
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Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
Makarov finished 1st in Soviet league scoring 9 times.
Including 1989, right before he went to the NHL.

Makarov didn't "Krutov" the transition to the NHL. He seemed to acclimate quite well.

However, he was not an elite scorer in the NHL. Not even close. In terms of offensive production in his age group, he was on par with Neal Broten in 1989-90.

Assuming he doesn't come with 4 teammates, when viewed as an individual, I don't think he's on Bossy's offensive level, and he doesn't overcome that gap with other parts of his game.

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03-03-2013, 04:59 PM
  #52
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
Including 1989, right before he went to the NHL.

Makarov didn't "Krutov" the transition to the NHL. He seemed to acclimate quite well.

However, he was not an elite scorer in the NHL. Not even close. In terms of offensive production in his age group, he was on par with Neal Broten in 1989-90.

Assuming he doesn't come with 4 teammates, when viewed as an individual, I don't think he's on Bossy's offensive level, and he doesn't overcome that gap with other parts of his game.
Makarov was 31 years old when he came over in 1989-90. Over his first 5 seasons in the NHL, Makarov ranks:

1st in points for NHL players 31 years old and older
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

3rd (behind Wayne Gretzky and Mike Gartner) for NHL players 30 years old and older:
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

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Old
03-03-2013, 05:03 PM
  #53
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I think what sets me apart with Bossy is that the man was remarkably consistent. 9 straight years of 50+ goals, peaking at 69. It isn't often that someone has a record Wayne Gretzky even fell short of acheiving. I don't deny Makarov's talent but like I said we SAW what Bossy could do in the best league in the world and we can only speculate what Makarov could do. Also, the postseason is where Bossy shone perhaps even better. 85 playoff goals, good for 6th all-time despite playing less games than everyone above him. 0.65 GPG in the playoffs, bested by only Mario Lemieux.

Could Makarov finish in points like this:
Points - 2, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6
Goals - 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5, 7

That's a pretty tall order from a guy who didn't play any better in short top notch tournaments than the guy we are comparing him to. Bossy is a lot like Phil Esposito or any other player who didn't look like Gilbert Perreault on the ice. He was effective and I think sometimes we take marks away from a person like that just because another player may have looked prettier doing it. Bossy still had talent, but he had a nose for the net that was rivaled by few and I'm not even sure Makarov could equal that on a season to season basis.
i kind of feel like this. i didn't see enough of soviet era makarov to know whether he was on bossy's level, but if i'm guessing i'd be predisposed to say that's an extremely high level to project anyone at.

and are we underrating bossy's playmaking ability here? bossy's best was a little before my time, so i'm not sure how he got all those assists, but he averaged an assist per game or better twice in his career. and the year he played with tonelli and sutter and both those guys got 40 goals, destroying their previous and future career bests, how much of that can we attribute to bossy's playmaking ability?

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03-03-2013, 05:39 PM
  #54
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Krutov might be under rated in terms of his production on the KLM line but that's about it.

There is a lot of evidence that Krutov was the weak link of that unit as an individual and only had success due to the structure and nature of the Russian systems.

Of all the players considered as in the top 50 of their positions or top 150-200 top forwards of all time, Krutov is one of the last players I would want to build a team around and most would have problems disagreeing with that comment I would think.
I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it completely.

What evidence is there that Krutov was the weak link?

He was the primary goal scorer. He was the best player in the corners and along the wall. His first step was better than anyone elses. And nobody could body him off the puck.

I would say Krutov was the consensus #3 player on the unit.

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03-03-2013, 05:53 PM
  #55
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i kind of feel like this. i didn't see enough of soviet era makarov to know whether he was on bossy's level, but if i'm guessing i'd be predisposed to say that's an extremely high level to project anyone at.

and are we underrating bossy's playmaking ability here? bossy's best was a little before my time, so i'm not sure how he got all those assists, but he averaged an assist per game or better twice in his career. and the year he played with tonelli and sutter and both those guys got 40 goals, destroying their previous and future career bests, how much of that can we attribute to bossy's playmaking ability?
This kind of discussion is always interesting. I think three slightly "lesser" players who are all on the same page have the potential to be just as productive as a line with two great players and a 3rd guy who is there "naturally" due to the depth chart, for example. "Synergy" can go a long way to making more out of odd man rushes over the long haul, again, just for example, and I think there's a component of that in lots of lines throughout history that may have been even better than the sum of their individual parts; which, in turn, usually makes it extremely hard to "measure" the contributions of one individual among the group.

Maybe "in a vacuum", Bossy's "play making abilities" weren't actually on the same level as Makarov. I honestly lean toward that opinion. Precision, vision, smoothness, and creativity were major aspects of the top Russians who started trickling into the NHL, and Makarov was no exception, imo. Part of "hockey I.Q.", though, is figuring out what kind of passing is conducive to your linemates' success, and sometimes "compete level" does a lot to get pucks from corners where plays could have fizzled out, and into dangerous scoring areas - often without reliance on dazzling skills or great exhibitions of talent... just work. Bossy certainly worked.

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03-03-2013, 05:53 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Makarov was the one of the five in the green unit that produced the best when first coming over. Unfortunately he was amongst the oldest of them and just missed the train that Larionov later took concerning what type of training it takes to maintain a high level when 35. I dont think that knowledge was there in 1993 let alone 1989, how to survive in the new NHL. Larionov showed that he probably would have been a 90-100 point player in his prime, with good defense. Makarov was A LOT better than Igor offensively.
In 94 Sergei also showed what he could do when he had Igor as his center for 60 games with a 80-30-38-68 line at age 35.

He was also 2nd in Shark playoff scoring to Igor who had an extremely good playoffs in 94.

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03-03-2013, 06:05 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it completely.

What evidence is there that Krutov was the weak link?

He was the primary goal scorer. He was the best player in the corners and along the wall. His first step was better than anyone elses. And nobody could body him off the puck.

I would say Krutov was the consensus #3 player on the unit.
I don't mean in terms of production under that system in that unit, i mean as an individual player overall.

The system helped Krutov more than any other member of that 5 man group.

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03-03-2013, 06:57 PM
  #58
Rob Scuderi
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I don't mean in terms of production under that system in that unit, i mean as an individual player overall.

The system helped Krutov more than any other member of that 5 man group.
Retroactively applying his Vancouver woes is the only way to believe this. What's the argument he was helped more than Kasatonov?

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03-03-2013, 07:05 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Put Bossy in Russia and he probably has trouble making their national team, let alone usurping Makarov on the top line. Makarov makes team Canada quite easily.

Lets just say, in the 80's the only Canadian forward with more success was Wayne Gretzky. Makarov was way better than Stastny, the nhl's second leading scorer in the 80's.
Highly debatable, which is what this poll is all about. Makarov was amazing, but he's not way better than Peter Stastny. There's the grit factor, leadership qualities...Peter Stastny brought A LOT to the rink every night.

Bossy vs. Makarov is pretty close. The thing is, there MAY be 1-2 guys who could score goals like Bossy in the history of hockey. So I lean towards him.

Besides, Bossy's defense and playmaking was highly underrated.

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03-03-2013, 10:14 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Makarov was 31 years old when he came over in 1989-90. Over his first 5 seasons in the NHL, Makarov ranks:

1st in points for NHL players 31 years old and older
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

3rd (behind Wayne Gretzky and Mike Gartner) for NHL players 30 years old and older:
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points
I'm not sold on those lists. Even among the over 30 group, even if it's just from 1990-94, Makarov doesn't really have a standout single season that puts him in Adam Oates territory, let alone Mike Bossy territory. His compiling stats are nice, but that's partly because you have to be age 31-35 exactly when Makarov was 31-35 if you want to have a chance on that list, and Makarov was healthy at an age where that's not an easy thing to be.

The scope is far too Makarov-specific. Lots of guys were better scorers between age 31-35, but a guy like Adam Oates only has one season on the list you gave.

If you expand it to everyone age 31 to 35, Makarov is drops down on that list even though he had a fairly high scoring era to work with.

Looking at everyone 31-35 since 1990 it looks like Makarov played in a higher scoring era, had one extra season due to lockout, but still only scores one point more than Daniel Afredsson. Do we think Alfie would peak as high as Bossy did?

More contemporary examples like Oates and Francis also produced more points at that age in the Dead Puck Era.

None of this says Makarov is a bad player. It just means that his NHL performance shows no evidence that he was an offensive force second only to Wayne Gretzky. Which Mike Bossy kinda was.

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03-03-2013, 10:44 PM
  #61
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
I'm not sold on those lists. Even among the over 30 group, even if it's just from 1990-94, Makarov doesn't really have a standout single season that puts him in Adam Oates territory, let alone Mike Bossy territory. His compiling stats are nice, but that's partly because you have to be age 31-35 exactly when Makarov was 31-35 if you want to have a chance on that list, and Makarov was healthy at an age where that's not an easy thing to be.

The scope is far too Makarov-specific. Lots of guys were better scorers between age 31-35, but a guy like Adam Oates only has one season on the list you gave.

If you expand it to everyone age 31 to 35, Makarov is drops down on that list even though he had a fairly high scoring era to work with.

Looking at everyone 31-35 since 1990 it looks like Makarov played in a higher scoring era, had one extra season due to lockout, but still only scores one point more than Daniel Afredsson. Do we think Alfie would peak as high as Bossy did?

More contemporary examples like Oates and Francis also produced more points at that age in the Dead Puck Era.
So even if you include more recent times when elite longevity past the age of 30 is more common, the only guys ahead of Makarov from 31-35 are Gretzky, Jagr, a couple of noted late bloomers (St. Louis and Oates) and guys with legendary elite longevity (Messier, Francis, and Bourque), with Alfredsson and Recchi (also known for elite longevity) right behind.

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None of this says Makarov is a bad player. It just means that his NHL performance shows no evidence that he was an offensive force second only to Wayne Gretzky. Which Mike Bossy kinda was.
Well if you want to evaluate him primarily from the age of 31 onwards, when he was clearly past his prime and transplanted to a completely new style of hockey, then I guess not. I don't really understand why you would do that though, especially when comparing him to a guy like Mike Bossy who retired at an age when Makarov hadn't even played his first NHL game.

I think it's quite impressive that he came over, past his prime, never having played a game of hockey in a system other than that Soviet one, and basically performed as well as any career NHLer of his age group.

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03-03-2013, 11:32 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
So even if you include more recent times when elite longevity past the age of 30 is more common, the only guys ahead of Makarov from 31-35 are Gretzky, Jagr, a couple of noted late bloomers (St. Louis and Oates) and guys with legendary elite longevity (Messier, Francis, and Bourque), with Alfredsson and Recchi (also known for elite longevity) right behind.



Well if you want to evaluate him primarily from the age of 31 onwards, when he was clearly past his prime and transplanted to a completely new style of hockey, then I guess not. I don't really understand why you would do that though, especially when comparing him to a guy like Mike Bossy who retired at an age when Makarov hadn't even played his first NHL game.

I think it's quite impressive that he came over, past his prime, never having played a game of hockey in a system other than that Soviet one, and basically performed as well as any career NHLer of his age group.
Makarov's very impressive and he probably would have been HHOF-calibre had he played in the 1980s. Doesn't mean he's better than Bossy or can maintain a tournament pace for an 80-game season in a more balanced competition. (At least in the 1987 Canada Cup he seemed far less productive in games against Canada then he was in games against teams that were overmatched.)

Makarov played in a league that was built for his team to dominate. Each of his 9 Soviet scoring titles are instantly jeopardized if he plays on one of the good, but not cherry-picked teams, like Moscow Dynamo. If you put Mike Bossy on the St. Louis Blues, his 50-goal string probably goes, but I still think he's the second best goal scorer of the 1980s.

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03-03-2013, 11:46 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
Makarov's very impressive and he probably would have been HHOF-calibre had he played in the 1980s. Doesn't mean he's better than Bossy or can maintain a tournament pace for an 80-game season in a more balanced competition. (At least in the 1987 Canada Cup he seemed far less productive in games against Canada then he was in games against teams that were overmatched.)

Makarov played in a league that was built for his team to dominate. Each of his 9 Soviet scoring titles are instantly jeopardized if he plays on one of the good, but not cherry-picked teams, like Moscow Dynamo. If you put Mike Bossy on the St. Louis Blues, his 50-goal string probably goes, but I still think he's the second best goal scorer of the 1980s.
Possibly, but Makarov was still dominating his teammates statistically (in 1982-83, he played 30 of 44 games).

1979-80 (44 games)

1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 29 39 68
2 Helmut Balderis CSKA 26 35 61
3 Viktor Shalimov Spartak 34 19 53
4 Mikha´l Varnakov Gorki 30 20 50
5 Boris Mikha´lov CSKA 27 23 50
6 Nikola´ Drozdetsky CSKA 31 18 49
7 Aleksandr Skvortsov Gorki 24 25 49
8 Aleksandr Golikov Dynamo 29 17 46
9 Piotr Prirodin Dynamo 27 18 45
10 Boris Aleksandrov Spartak 22 23 45

1980-81 (49 games)

1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 42 37 79
2 Sergue´ Kapustin Spartak 36 25 61
3 Nikola´ Drozdetsky CSKA 30 28 58
4 Valeri Belousov Chelyabinsk 23 35 58
5 Viktor Zhlutkov CSKA 29 26 55
6 Viktor Shalimov Spartak 21 32 53
7 Helmut Balderis Riga 26 24 50
8 Sergue´ Shepelev Spartak 28 20 48
9 Igor Larionov Voskresensk 22 23 45
10 Vladimir Petrov CSKA 19 25 44

1981-82 (47 games)

1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 32 43 75
2 Aleksandr Kozhevnikov Spartak 43 28 71
3 Vladimir Krutov CSKA 37 29 66
4 Viktor Shalimov Spartak 27 32 59
5 Igor Larionov CSKA 31 22 53
6 Sergue´ Kapustin Spartak 30 22 52
7 Viktor Tyumenev Spartak 21 29 50
8 Aleksandr Orlov Spartak 11 39 50
9 Nikola´ Drozdetsky CSKA 28 16 44
10 Helmut Balderis Riga 24 19 43

1982-83 (44 games)

1 Helmut Balderis Riga 32 31 63
2 Aleksandr Kozhevnikov Spartak 35 22 57
3 Vladimir Krutov CSKA 32 21 53
4 Aleksandr Skvortsov Gorki 27 20 47
5 Igor Orlov Spartak 22 23 45
6 Vyacheslav Bykov CSKA 22 22 44
7 Alekse´ Frolikov Riga 30 12 42
8 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 25 17 42
9 Viktor Tyumenev Spartak 16 26 42
10 Sergue´ Lapshin Leningrad 30 11 41

1983-84 (44 games)

1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 36 37 73
2 Vladimir Krutov CSKA 37 20 57
3 Nikola´ Drozdetsky CSKA 31 20 51
4 Vyacheslav Fetisov CSKA 19 30 49
5 Aleksandr Kozhevnikov Spartak 33 14 47
6 Viktor Shalimov Spartak 24 21 45
7 Valeri Bragin Voskresensk 19 26 45
8 Sergue´ Kapustin Spartak 22 21 43
9 Sergue´ Shepelev Spartak 21 21 42
10 Igor Larionov CSKA 15 26 41

1984-85 (40 games)

1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 26 39 65
2 Vladimir Krutov CSKA 23 30 53
3 Helmut Balderis Riga 31 20 51
4 Vladimir Zubrilchev Dynamo 23 24 47
5 Igor Larionov CSKA 18 28 46
6 Sergue´ Abramov Izhevsk 16 23 39
7 Viktor Shalimov Spartak 16 22 38
8 Sergue´ Shepelev Spartak 21 16 37
9 Aleksei Kasatonov CSKA 18 18 36
10 Valeri Bragin Voskresensk 14 22 36

1985-86 (40 games)

1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 30 32 62
2 Igor Larionov CSKA 21 31 52
3 Vladimir Krutov CSKA 31 17 48
4 Sergue´ Kapustin Spartak 23 13 36
Vyacheslav Lavov Leningrad 23 13 36
6 Anatoli Semenov Dynamo 18 17 35
7 Sergue´ Svetlov Dynamo 15 20 35
8 Vyacheslav Fetisov CSKA 15 19 34
9 Anatoli Stepanishev Kiev 12 22 34
10 Yuri Khmylev Krilya 24 9 33

1986-87 (40 games)

1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 21 32 53
2 Vladimir Krutov CSKA 26 24 50
3 Igor Larionov CSKA 20 26 46
4 Anatoli Semenov Dynamo 15 29 44
5 Vladimir Shchurenko Voskresensk 24 18 42
6 Sergue´ Svetlov Dynamo 20 19 39
7 Vyacheslav Bykov CSKA 18 15 33
8 Andrei Khomutov CSKA 15 18 33
9 Vyacheslav Fetisov CSKA 13 20 33
10 Aleksei Kasatonov CSKA 13 17 30

1987-88 (51 games)

1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 23 45 68
2 Igor Larionov CSKA 25 32 57
3 Nikola´ Sukhanov Chelyabinsk 22 29 51
4 Vyacheslav Bykov CSKA 17 30 47
5 Valeri Kamensky CSKA 26 20 46
6 Aleksandr Koshevnikov Krilya 25 20 45
7 Andrei Khomutov CSKA 29 14 43
8 Vladimir Krutov CSKA 19 23 42
9 Anatoli Stepanishev Kiev 27 14 41
10 Anatoli Chistyakov Chelyabinsk 14 27 41

1988-89 (44 ga mes)

1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 21 33 54
2 Vladimir Krutov CSKA 20 21 41
3 Anatoli Chistyakov Chelyabinsk 9 31 40
4 Vyacheslav Bykov CSKA 16 20 36
5 Andrei Khomutov CSKA 19 16 35
6 Evgueni Shastin Kiev 21 13 34
7 Aleksandr Belyavski Riga 19 15 34
8 Yuri Khmylev Krilya 16 18 34
9 Dmitri Kvartalnov Voskresensk 20 12 32
10 Ramil Yuldashev Kiev 19 13 32

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03-04-2013, 02:36 AM
  #64
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There is a lot of evidence that Krutov was the weak link of that unit as an individual and only had success due to the structure and nature of the Russian systems.
Where is this evidence? Let me guess; his failed NHL career? Try to come up with something else for a change, okay, and try to analyze in what way he was the weak link of that unit. In the early 1980s, Krutov was a bit inconsistent, but around the 1987 Canada Cup, he was so good that even the Canadian media was calling him "the best player in Europe" (or at least the color guy in the 1987 CC Ron Reusch was).

The weak link of that unit as an individual, are you kidding me?
In 1980, the US Olympic team picked the 19-year old Krutov as the player they feared the most, and you're saying he was just a team product??? I'm hoping you're not talking about talent here, because if you are, you really need some, er, education. Between 1981 and 1989, Krutov was better player than Larionov; it's not just about the stats, but it's also about accolades and eyewitness account. He may have had weaknesses in his personality, which then ruined the rest of his career, but he was one of the most talented Soviet players ever. Dat's roight.

What can I say about Larionov? I would put it like this (yes, I'm exaggerating slightly): he had a nice little career in Soviet Union and then he had a nice little career in the NHL; his longevity and adaptability being by far the most impressive thing about his career in my opinion. Did the unit's play suffer at all when Larionov wasn't centering them (the 1985-86 Super Series) or when he wasn't contributing much (1987 Canada Cup)? I can answer that for you: not a one bit. IMO USSR missing Fetisov in the 1984 CC, for example, was a much bigger loss for them.

PS. Anatoly Tarasov (a some sort of authority, eh?) once called Krutov "the best forward we've ever had"*. Now, I don't agree with that, and Tarasov might have been a bit hyped (maybe this was after the 1987 CC or something), but after all, Tarasov was the guy who nurtured Anatoly Firsov and Valery Kharlamov.

* Viktor Tikhonov says this in his book. The book was written in 1988, when Tarasov was still very much alive; there's no way Tikhonov would've dared to put it in the book, if he hadn't said it


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03-04-2013, 02:57 AM
  #65
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Makarov's very impressive and he probably would have been HHOF-calibre had he played in the 1980s.
'Probably would have been HHOF-calibre'?
Does that mean that he isn't HHOF worthy as it is in your opinion?

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03-04-2013, 04:13 AM
  #66
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BTW, it seems like the appreciation for Makarov has gone up lately. I remember doing a Makarov vs Kurri poll a couple of years back and the result was exactly 50%-50%, and I'd think Bossy vs Kurri would be a landslide for Bossy. Is it YouTube (more games with Makarov available than before)? Or are there more European posters around?

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03-04-2013, 04:21 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Possibly, but Makarov was still dominating his teammates statistically (in 1982-83, he played 30 of 44 games).

1979-80 (44 games)

1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 29 39 68
2 Helmut Balderis CSKA 26 35 61
3 Viktor Shalimov Spartak 34 19 53
4 Mikha´l Varnakov Gorki 30 20 50
5 Boris Mikha´lov CSKA 27 23 50
6 Nikola´ Drozdetsky CSKA 31 18 49
7 Aleksandr Skvortsov Gorki 24 25 49
8 Aleksandr Golikov Dynamo 29 17 46
9 Piotr Prirodin Dynamo 27 18 45
10 Boris Aleksandrov Spartak 22 23 45

1980-81 (49 games)

1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 42 37 79
2 Sergue´ Kapustin Spartak 36 25 61
3 Nikola´ Drozdetsky CSKA 30 28 58
4 Valeri Belousov Chelyabinsk 23 35 58
5 Viktor Zhlutkov CSKA 29 26 55
6 Viktor Shalimov Spartak 21 32 53
7 Helmut Balderis Riga 26 24 50
8 Sergue´ Shepelev Spartak 28 20 48
9 Igor Larionov Voskresensk 22 23 45
10 Vladimir Petrov CSKA 19 25 44

1981-82 (47 games)

1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 32 43 75
2 Aleksandr Kozhevnikov Spartak 43 28 71
3 Vladimir Krutov CSKA 37 29 66
4 Viktor Shalimov Spartak 27 32 59
5 Igor Larionov CSKA 31 22 53
6 Sergue´ Kapustin Spartak 30 22 52
7 Viktor Tyumenev Spartak 21 29 50
8 Aleksandr Orlov Spartak 11 39 50
9 Nikola´ Drozdetsky CSKA 28 16 44
10 Helmut Balderis Riga 24 19 43

1982-83 (44 games)

1 Helmut Balderis Riga 32 31 63
2 Aleksandr Kozhevnikov Spartak 35 22 57
3 Vladimir Krutov CSKA 32 21 53
4 Aleksandr Skvortsov Gorki 27 20 47
5 Igor Orlov Spartak 22 23 45
6 Vyacheslav Bykov CSKA 22 22 44
7 Alekse´ Frolikov Riga 30 12 42
8 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 25 17 42
9 Viktor Tyumenev Spartak 16 26 42
10 Sergue´ Lapshin Leningrad 30 11 41

1983-84 (44 games)

1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 36 37 73
2 Vladimir Krutov CSKA 37 20 57
3 Nikola´ Drozdetsky CSKA 31 20 51
4 Vyacheslav Fetisov CSKA 19 30 49
5 Aleksandr Kozhevnikov Spartak 33 14 47
6 Viktor Shalimov Spartak 24 21 45
7 Valeri Bragin Voskresensk 19 26 45
8 Sergue´ Kapustin Spartak 22 21 43
9 Sergue´ Shepelev Spartak 21 21 42
10 Igor Larionov CSKA 15 26 41

1984-85 (40 games)

1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 26 39 65
2 Vladimir Krutov CSKA 23 30 53
3 Helmut Balderis Riga 31 20 51
4 Vladimir Zubrilchev Dynamo 23 24 47
5 Igor Larionov CSKA 18 28 46
6 Sergue´ Abramov Izhevsk 16 23 39
7 Viktor Shalimov Spartak 16 22 38
8 Sergue´ Shepelev Spartak 21 16 37
9 Aleksei Kasatonov CSKA 18 18 36
10 Valeri Bragin Voskresensk 14 22 36

1985-86 (40 games)

1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 30 32 62
2 Igor Larionov CSKA 21 31 52
3 Vladimir Krutov CSKA 31 17 48
4 Sergue´ Kapustin Spartak 23 13 36
Vyacheslav Lavov Leningrad 23 13 36
6 Anatoli Semenov Dynamo 18 17 35
7 Sergue´ Svetlov Dynamo 15 20 35
8 Vyacheslav Fetisov CSKA 15 19 34
9 Anatoli Stepanishev Kiev 12 22 34
10 Yuri Khmylev Krilya 24 9 33

1986-87 (40 games)

1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 21 32 53
2 Vladimir Krutov CSKA 26 24 50
3 Igor Larionov CSKA 20 26 46
4 Anatoli Semenov Dynamo 15 29 44
5 Vladimir Shchurenko Voskresensk 24 18 42
6 Sergue´ Svetlov Dynamo 20 19 39
7 Vyacheslav Bykov CSKA 18 15 33
8 Andrei Khomutov CSKA 15 18 33
9 Vyacheslav Fetisov CSKA 13 20 33
10 Aleksei Kasatonov CSKA 13 17 30

1987-88 (51 games)

1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 23 45 68
2 Igor Larionov CSKA 25 32 57
3 Nikola´ Sukhanov Chelyabinsk 22 29 51
4 Vyacheslav Bykov CSKA 17 30 47
5 Valeri Kamensky CSKA 26 20 46
6 Aleksandr Koshevnikov Krilya 25 20 45
7 Andrei Khomutov CSKA 29 14 43
8 Vladimir Krutov CSKA 19 23 42
9 Anatoli Stepanishev Kiev 27 14 41
10 Anatoli Chistyakov Chelyabinsk 14 27 41

1988-89 (44 ga mes)

1 Sergue´ Makarov CSKA 21 33 54
2 Vladimir Krutov CSKA 20 21 41
3 Anatoli Chistyakov Chelyabinsk 9 31 40
4 Vyacheslav Bykov CSKA 16 20 36
5 Andrei Khomutov CSKA 19 16 35
6 Evgueni Shastin Kiev 21 13 34
7 Aleksandr Belyavski Riga 19 15 34
8 Yuri Khmylev Krilya 16 18 34
9 Dmitri Kvartalnov Voskresensk 20 12 32
10 Ramil Yuldashev Kiev 19 13 32
Yeah, and i've always gotten the impression when looking at soviet scoring races compared to AS-selections that the players on CSKA actually were hindred statisticly becouse of a more well spread TOI.

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03-04-2013, 04:45 AM
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Yeah, and i've always gotten the impression when looking at soviet scoring races compared to AS-selections that the players on CSKA actually were hindred statisticly becouse of a more well spread TOI.
There could be a little bit of something to that. I believe Larionov commented during the Olympics (when he was on the studio panel) that Tikhonov was notorious for just rolling lines - in international play, in any event. Not sure about domestically (he obviously coached both guys on both squads). If memory serves, he was talking about match-ups, and how he didn't get to test himself head-to-head against Gretzky as much as he would have liked because Tikhonov predictably rolled the lines in his regular manner. As it turned out they apparently rarely ended up on the ice against each other.

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03-04-2013, 05:33 AM
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BTW, it seems like the appreciation for Makarov has gone up lately. I remember doing a Makarov vs Kurri poll a couple of years back and the result was exactly 50%-50%, and I'd think Bossy vs Kurri would be a landslide for Bossy. Is it YouTube (more games with Makarov available than before)? Or are there more European posters around?
I voted for Makarov, partly due to longevity, but probably partly also to be a contrarian. But I'm honestly really surprised that it's basically tied, considering where this board was a few years ago.

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03-04-2013, 11:17 AM
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Mike Bossy,

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03-04-2013, 11:37 AM
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'Probably would have been HHOF-calibre'?
Does that mean that he isn't HHOF worthy as it is in your opinion?
I think he was HHOF-calibre. We are talking about a hypothetical situation though.

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Possibly, but Makarov was still dominating his teammates statistically (in 1982-83, he played 30 of 44 games).
Makarov barely beat a teammate who wasn't even trying for his first scoring title

More seriously, if we are to assume Soviet League dominance translates into NHL dominance, shouldn't the dominant 1989 USSR scoring champion have been able to be a top scorer in the 1990 NHL?

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03-04-2013, 12:53 PM
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More seriously, if we are to assume Soviet League dominance translates into NHL dominance, shouldn't the dominant 1989 USSR scoring champion have been able to be a top scorer in the 1990 NHL?
The thing is that some seem to undervalue the transition these guys had to make. I think an older Makarov did ok in the NHL while Larionov and Fetisov showed what they where really made of after turning 35, smartguy Igor somewhat before that too. Take a look at how some north american guys did when coming over to the World Championships or even later during the lockouts, it is hard to translate.

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03-04-2013, 01:10 PM
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More seriously, if we are to assume Soviet League dominance translates into NHL dominance, shouldn't the dominant 1989 USSR scoring champion have been able to be a top scorer in the 1990 NHL?
Dominance of the Soviet league is more an indication of "calibre". Style, language, culture, etc all remain as barriers to any player looking to make the transition from one league to the other - even the best of them. It's much less of a transition now, 20+ years later, as at this point teams have built in elaborate support systems to help import players adjust and acclimate. The emphasis on skill over physicality in the modern league/game has further aided the transition of skilled players who might have been looked over 20 years ago.

But anyway, three straight PPG seasons upon making the transition to the NHL in his 30s has to be seen as a success. Heck, he was maintaining point pace with a prime Doug Gilmour over those first 3 seasons, and had by far the highest shooting percentage in the league over that 3 year period of '89/90-'91/92 (Makarov - 25.9%, c.f. Robitaille - 20.8%, Lafontaine - 19.8%, Hull - 19.3%, Lemieux - 19.1%, etc). There are a lot of bread crumbs there leading towards a tale of a truly elite player before we even make it all the way back to Soviet league days.

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03-04-2013, 08:29 PM
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Dominance of the Soviet league is more an indication of "calibre". Style, language, culture, etc all remain as barriers to any player looking to make the transition from one league to the other - even the best of them. It's much less of a transition now, 20+ years later, as at this point teams have built in elaborate support systems to help import players adjust and acclimate. The emphasis on skill over physicality in the modern league/game has further aided the transition of skilled players who might have been looked over 20 years ago.

But anyway, three straight PPG seasons upon making the transition to the NHL in his 30s has to be seen as a success. Heck, he was maintaining point pace with a prime Doug Gilmour over those first 3 seasons, and had by far the highest shooting percentage in the league over that 3 year period of '89/90-'91/92 (Makarov - 25.9%, c.f. Robitaille - 20.8%, Lafontaine - 19.8%, Hull - 19.3%, Lemieux - 19.1%, etc). There are a lot of bread crumbs there leading towards a tale of a truly elite player before we even make it all the way back to Soviet league days.
Bread crumbs do not a steak dinner make. Remember the standard that needs to be proven is not that Makarov was an HHOF-quality player, it's that he was BETTER than MIKE BOSSY. Was he better than a guy who averaged 60 goals a season in the NHL and for a brief period, 17 goals per playoff year, against stronger competition?

Prorating their raw totals to the same number of games favours Bossy. Based on TDMM's numbers, it gets him 515 goals in 10 years if the Soviets played 80 games (and Makarov maintained his pace.) That's not accounting for the Soviet system giving Makarov the best 4 players in the league and letting him play with them against competition that was designed to be inferior.

Even still, in his scrimmages against Russian practice squads, Makarov couldn't outscore Mike Bossy against more balanced NHL competition. He was a great goal scorer, but he's not in the same class as Mike Bossy. AINEC.

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03-04-2013, 08:37 PM
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Bread crumbs do not a steak dinner make. Remember the standard that needs to be proven is not that Makarov was an HHOF-quality player, it's that he was BETTER than MIKE BOSSY. Was he better than a guy who averaged 60 goals a season in the NHL and for a brief period, 17 goals per playoff year, against stronger competition?

Prorating their raw totals to the same number of games favours Bossy. Based on TDMM's numbers, it gets him 515 goals in 10 years if the Soviets played 80 games (and Makarov maintained his pace.) That's not accounting for the Soviet system giving Makarov the best 4 players in the league and letting him play with them against competition that was designed to be inferior.

Even still, in his scrimmages against Russian practice squads, Makarov couldn't outscore Mike Bossy against more balanced NHL competition. He was a great goal scorer, but he's not in the same class as Mike Bossy. AINEC.
Whether or not he would/could be as productive as Bossy, I don't know, but I wouldn't hesitate to call Makarov the "better" player "in a vacuum", AINEC.

And btw, you forgot to account for the fact that forwards under Tikhonov got ~15 mins per game of ice time - whether a 1st liner or 4th liner. In the NHL, other players of similar calibre were playing 25+ mins per game. How does that affect the prorating, if we go by actual time spent on the ice as opposed to number of games played, I wonder?

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