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Old
03-01-2013, 10:59 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I'm so sorry. I guess when you said old in your first post, then dinosaur in your second post, that you meant old guys. I figured you meant around 35, but it appears your definition of old or dinosaurs is 30. Ok, that's fine. Ten players over age 30 is not a shocking number. While that list is not wrought with talent and quality contracts, those are the types of players that fill out every roster in the NHL. You need depth. You need seasoned players.
Not all people age the same. Foster at 31 looks 40 years old at times out there. Conversely, Betts was only about 31 when he was done in as well. Dinosaur might not be the best term..."used up, bordering extinction" is probably better.

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:57 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I'm so sorry. I guess when you said old in your first post, then dinosaur in your second post, that you meant old guys. I figured you meant around 35, but it appears your definition of old or dinosaurs is 30. Ok, that's fine. Ten players over age 30 is not a shocking number. While that list is not wrought with talent and quality contracts, those are the types of players that fill out every roster in the NHL. You need depth. You need seasoned players.
He's not defining "dinosaurs" based on any age. He's looking at players individually and realizing that some (actually many on our roster) are past their prime useless overpaid pylons who do not belong on a contending NHL team.

That's guys like Foster, Lilja, Shelley, Knuble, Boucher, Leighton, Walker. I don't agree with his inclusion of Pronger because as much as I didn't like that trade and feel that an eventual decline due to age / cumulative injuries was foreseeable, he was playing elite #1 defenseman type hockey when he went down due to a fluke concussion.

But the point is, there are several players on this team who do not belong within 100 ft of an NHL team. And it was obvious when we signed these guys that they were well past their prime and belonged out in a pasture somewhere, not on an NHL team. Knuble was clearly done when we wasted money and a contract on him. The best thing you can say about Knuble is that he's not actually dead yet. Ditto Lilja & Foster. Ditto Leighton and Boucher. Walker is on the roster because of Holmgren's errors in managing the cap. We knew he never truly belonged on an NHL team.

There's just too much of that dead weight, too many well past their prime guys or guys who've never been the same after they sustained an injury eating up space on this roster. In the future when our team gets in a bind, I'd prefer to see Holmgren try to fill the void with young players (Akeson, Noebels, McGinn, Manning, Gus, etc.) rather than just running out and acquiring old, useless warm bodies.

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03-02-2013, 09:00 AM
  #303
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Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
He's not defining "dinosaurs" based on any age. He's looking at players individually and realizing that some (actually many on our roster) are past their prime useless overpaid pylons who do not belong on a contending NHL team.
That's fine. But when you say you are "tired of old players" and that there are a lot of "dinosaurs" on the team, the only thing that I, and anyone else (unless they are a mind reader), can take from that is that you think the team has too many old players. It would have been impossible for me to know he was defining those words in any other way. If he meant there are a lot of useless contracts given to guys past their prime, he should have said that.

Quote:
That's guys like Foster, Lilja, Shelley, Knuble, Boucher, Leighton, Walker. I don't agree with his inclusion of Pronger because as much as I didn't like that trade and feel that an eventual decline due to age / cumulative injuries was foreseeable, he was playing elite #1 defenseman type hockey when he went down due to a fluke concussion.

But the point is, there are several players on this team who do not belong within 100 ft of an NHL team. And it was obvious when we signed these guys that they were well past their prime and belonged out in a pasture somewhere, not on an NHL team. Knuble was clearly done when we wasted money and a contract on him. The best thing you can say about Knuble is that he's not actually dead yet. Ditto Lilja & Foster. Ditto Leighton and Boucher. Walker is on the roster because of Holmgren's errors in managing the cap. We knew he never truly belonged on an NHL team.

There's just too much of that dead weight, too many well past their prime guys or guys who've never been the same after they sustained an injury eating up space on this roster. In the future when our team gets in a bind, I'd prefer to see Holmgren try to fill the void with young players (Akeson, Noebels, McGinn, Manning, Gus, etc.) rather than just running out and acquiring old, useless warm bodies.
I think if you look at the rest of the league, you will see that these types of players are in every organization. Some slightly worse than on the Flyers, some slightly better. But a handful of contracts given out to aging veterans and some guys in their early 30s that aren't that good is the norm. I'd like to see young guys get a chance too...when they are ready. Putting a guy out there who is 21 but sucks is essentially the same as putting someone out there who is 31 who sucks. The difference is with the 31 year old you know he can handle the rigors of the NHL. It is silly to take a young kid and put him in simply because he is young and deserves a chance. If he can play, they would put him in. If he can't, they'll put someone else in. Gus is playing now (when not injured), same with McGinn. Akeson, Noebles, Manning, and others on the Phantoms, though younger than some of the players currently playing, might not be better. Knuble is way past his prime. I agree. But that doesn't mean that [insert young player here] would have been better.


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Old
03-02-2013, 09:25 AM
  #304
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The Flyers took a chance on Jagr last season and his presence on the team worked out marvelously, not only on the score sheet, but in the dressing room and on the practice ice. I know Jagr is a different level of player, but there were still question marks surrounding what he could bring to the roster.

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03-02-2013, 09:57 AM
  #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
That's fine. But when you say you are "tired of old players" and that there are a lot of "dinosaurs" on the team, the only thing that I, and anyone else (unless they are a mind reader), can take from that is that you think the team has too many old players. It would have been impossible for me to know he was defining those words in any other way. If he meant there are a lot of useless contracts given to guys past their prime, he should have said that.
Read between the lines. No way I could have meant extinct aging players by using the term dinosaur. That's such a mental jump, no one could be expected to make it. No one. God rest your soul for trying. It's only the kind of inference an 11th grader in expected to make reading Watership Down.

Quote:
I think if you look at the rest of the league, you will see that these types of players are in every organization. Some slightly worse than on the Flyers, some slightly better. But a handful of contracts given out to aging veterans and some guys in their early 30s that aren't that good is the norm. I'd like to see young guys get a chance too...when they are ready. Putting a guy out there who is 21 but sucks is essentially the same as putting someone out there who is 31 who sucks. The difference is with the 31 year old you know he can handle the rigors of the NHL. It is silly to take a young kid and put him in simply because he is young and deserves a chance. If he can play, they would put him in. If he can't, they'll put someone else in. Gus is playing now (when not injured), same with McGinn. Akeson, Noebles, Manning, and others on the Phantoms, though younger than some of the players currently playing, might not be better. Knuble is way past his prime. I agree. But that doesn't mean that [insert young player here] would have been better.
I mostly agree, but inserting all these plugs is a symptom of the Flyer's virtually bare cupboard which is ticking me off recently. Nor it is true that necessarily a 31 year old vet will handle the league better than the young guy who deserves a chance. It is only "silly" if he isn't ready.

Case in point: If Knuble is in ahead of McGinn.

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Old
03-02-2013, 10:14 AM
  #306
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Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
Read between the lines. No way I could have meant extinct aging players by using the term dinosaur. That's such a mental jump, no one could be expected to make it. No one. God rest your soul for trying. It's only the kind of inference an 11th grader in expected to make reading Watership Down.
Dude, you said old players and dinosaurs. I took that to meant old players, so I guessed maybe over 35. That wasn't what you meant. So I guessed over 30. That wasn't what you meant. Those aren't big leaps. A big leap would be thinking you meant bad contracts and bad players. For instance if I said I want young players, you would probably think I meant maybe players under 25. But if I really meant entry level contracts, you would have no way of knowing that because I used the word "young" which doesn't describe contracts or playing abilities. Kind of like your use of the words "old" and "dinosaur" don't describe contracts or playing abilities.

Quote:
I mostly agree, but inserting all these plugs is a symptom of the Flyer's virtually bare cupboard which is ticking me off recently. Nor it is true that necessarily a 31 year old vet will handle the league better than the young guy who deserves a chance. It is only "silly" if he isn't ready.

Case in point: If Knuble is in ahead of McGinn.
I agree it is not 100% true that a 31 year old vet will handle the league better, but it is a safer bet than a kid who has never played. Absolutely Akeson (or another player) could come in and flourish. Or he could come in and suck. With Knuble, you know what you are getting. With a guy like Akeson (or another player), the team knows his abilitly. If they thought he could play in the NHL, don't you think they would have called him up instead signing a guy? Or are you one of those guys that knows the Flyers players better than the organization?

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Old
03-02-2013, 10:24 AM
  #307
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Bryz should get bought out, he's struggling to find consistency in year 2, how bad is it going to be 3 years from now when he's 35?

I would expect them to go bargain shopping but I wonder how much one of Ottawas goalies would cost in a trade. Bishop or Lehner specifically.
Bryz isn't the problem in Philadelphia. No back up goaltender, playing in more back to back games than any other team right now has been Bryz's nemesis this year. It's not hard to tell that he's gassed and needs a breather. Blame Holmgren for failing to secure an adequate back up that can play a game or two on occasion. Michael Leighton is terrible and Boucher is done. The fact that Laviolette basically has no choice but to play Bryz until he runs him into the ground will be Bryzgalov's ultimate undoing.

EDIT: And if you think Bishop or Lehner are going to come cheaply, think again. Ottawa gave up a 2nd for Bishop, so that's probably the minimum they will ask for. Lehner is their goaltender of the future. To acquire him is going to force the Flyers to part with something very significant.

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03-02-2013, 05:25 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Bryz isn't the problem in Philadelphia. No back up goaltender, playing in more back to back games than any other team right now has been Bryz's nemesis this year. It's not hard to tell that he's gassed and needs a breather. Blame Holmgren for failing to secure an adequate back up that can play a game or two on occasion. Michael Leighton is terrible and Boucher is done. The fact that Laviolette basically has no choice but to play Bryz until he runs him into the ground will be Bryzgalov's ultimate undoing.

EDIT: And if you think Bishop or Lehner are going to come cheaply, think again. Ottawa gave up a 2nd for Bishop, so that's probably the minimum they will ask for. Lehner is their goaltender of the future. To acquire him is going to force the Flyers to part with something very significant.
I'd give a 2nd for Bishop, easily. Might even do 2 2nds.

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03-02-2013, 05:30 PM
  #309
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I would love to pick up Ellis from the Canes somehow, servicable back up, cheap caphit. Will be FA this summer. do we have anything you think the Canes would take.

I don't even know what they have the on the farm to call up for a backup option.

We could always trade them Leighton

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03-02-2013, 05:44 PM
  #310
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Blues fan here,
I don't see Briere being traded during the season, but is there anyway he'd be available during the offseason (he'd have to waive his NTC)? IF so, what would you guys look for in return from the Blues? Maybe the rights to Kris Russel (RFA) and Brian Elliott? Draft pick?

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03-02-2013, 05:52 PM
  #311
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Blues fan here,
I don't see Briere being traded during the season, but is there anyway he'd be available during the offseason (he'd have to waive his NTC)? IF so, what would you guys look for in return from the Blues? Maybe the rights to Kris Russel (RFA) and Brian Elliott? Draft pick?
Sobotka, Russel and 3rd.

But Briere isn't waiving his NTC.... so it's a dream.

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03-02-2013, 06:02 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by Lifetimebluesfan View Post
Blues fan here,
I don't see Briere being traded during the season, but is there anyway he'd be available during the offseason (he'd have to waive his NTC)? IF so, what would you guys look for in return from the Blues? Maybe the rights to Kris Russel (RFA) and Brian Elliott? Draft pick?
I suggested elsewhere a 1st and Elliott for Briere. Elliott would be a significant upgrade from the awful backup options on the Flyers at present.

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03-03-2013, 02:37 PM
  #313
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I'd give a 2nd for Bishop, easily. Might even do 2 2nds.
I guess I'm in the minority then because I wouldn't. I look at the Flyers and while there's some decent players in the system, they really need to start adding more talent to the pipeline. That 2nd round pick is going to be very valuable going forward.

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03-03-2013, 02:43 PM
  #314
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I guess I'm in the minority then because I wouldn't. I look at the Flyers and while there's some decent players in the system, they really need to start adding more talent to the pipeline. That 2nd round pick is going to be very valuable going forward.
A 6'7" backup goalie who is competent and can even start a string of games in case of injury is very valuable going forward

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03-03-2013, 03:10 PM
  #315
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I wouldn't give up 2 2nds for a goalie unless I thought he'd be my starter. A backup isn't winning games in the playoffs, why would I give up that much for him? Two seconds is what TB gave up for Lindback. Now if I thought he'd be my long term starter, sure I'd pull the trigger. I would love to have Lehner, but couldn't imagine how much he'd cost.

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03-03-2013, 03:33 PM
  #316
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I wouldn't give up 2 2nds for a goalie unless I thought he'd be my starter. A backup isn't winning games in the playoffs, why would I give up that much for him? Two seconds is what TB gave up for Lindback. Now if I thought he'd be my long term starter, sure I'd pull the trigger. I would love to have Lehner, but couldn't imagine how much he'd cost.
I personally think we just need an established back-up for the coming seasons and see how Stolarz pans out. I know we wouldn't be able to do an amnesty buy out at any time if we wanted to get rid of Bryz, but right now, it's probably best that we have him right now, even at his price.

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03-03-2013, 04:42 PM
  #317
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I'd give a 2nd for Bishop, easily. Might even do 2 2nds.
Me too. Done dealio!

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03-03-2013, 05:04 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by FLYguy3911 View Post
I wouldn't give up 2 2nds for a goalie unless I thought he'd be my starter. A backup isn't winning games in the playoffs, why would I give up that much for him? Two seconds is what TB gave up for Lindback. Now if I thought he'd be my long term starter, sure I'd pull the trigger. I would love to have Lehner, but couldn't imagine how much he'd cost.
Could of had him 09 if we werent giving away draft picks.

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03-03-2013, 05:13 PM
  #319
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Could of had him 09 if we werent giving away draft picks.
Could you explain? Do you mean through the draft or trade? I don't remember any rumors about him.

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Old
03-03-2013, 05:18 PM
  #320
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Could of had him 09 if we werent giving away draft picks.
True, but then we wouldn't have had Pronger. Nor is it a given that they would have drafted in him (which would have to have been in the first round). Could have also had ROR, John Moore, Tim Erixon and a lot of other players.

EDIT: Wait are you talking about Lindback or Lehner?

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03-03-2013, 05:29 PM
  #321
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Could you explain? Do you mean through the draft or trade? I don't remember any rumors about him.
It was the 1st of back to back years without a 1st or 2nd rounder. Would of we gotten Lehner anyway? maybe not. i think that years 2nd rounder went to TB for Prospal.

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03-03-2013, 05:32 PM
  #322
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True, but then we wouldn't have had Pronger. Nor is it a given that they would have drafted in him (which would have to have been in the first round). Could have also had ROR, John Moore, Tim Erixon and a lot of other players.

EDIT: Wait are you talking about Lindback or Lehner?
Lehner. That was the year they traded for Prospal but there was conditions with it.

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03-03-2013, 05:45 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Lehner. That was the year they traded for Prospal but there was conditions with it.
Oh I thought it was the year with the Pronger trade. My bad.

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03-03-2013, 07:21 PM
  #324
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Could of had him 09 if we werent giving away draft picks.
If teams knew he would be this good he would have been a first rounder.

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03-04-2013, 09:38 AM
  #325
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Now when Sestito is away do you guys think we could need heavyweight in our system? Heavyweight who can skate and hit.

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