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The media is not all over Kessel's goal production because...

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Old
03-02-2013, 07:13 PM
  #76
Bodybr3ak
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Its not because of Seguin its because we are winning. The moment we string 3-4 losses together people will want his head.

Im glad hes slumping now because previous trends show this guy is going tare the NHL a new ******* down the final 15-20 games, when it matters most.

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03-02-2013, 08:02 PM
  #77
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My beef with Kessel is that if he and another player go to the boards, 90% of the time the other guy will come out with the puck. I like Kessel but sometimes it is brutal to watch.

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03-02-2013, 08:17 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Bodybr3ak View Post
Its not because of Seguin its because we are winning. The moment we string 3-4 losses together people will want his head.

Im glad hes slumping now because previous trends show this guy is going tare the NHL a new ******* down the final 15-20 games, when it matters most.
Sabre made a good point, what if we lose a couple games in a row but PK scores 4 goals?

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Old
03-02-2013, 08:19 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Tonka View Post
...today Tyler Seguin scored his whopping 4th goal of the year.

That's right- the media, and many Leafs "fans" would be all over Kessel and ripping the guy left and right over every opportunity they could get. I barely hear anything on the radio about it. Sure there has been the odd speculation of trading him for Perry or his next contract but there isn't much attention especially since Kessel just played two very weak games against the NYI and Habs. Possibly his softest games since the debaucle with Rotten Ronnie...and there was a tonne of media coverage over that.

But if the prodigy, Tyler "thank-you Kessel" Seguin had been playing at even an average production rate, Kessel would be pig roast by now thanks to Schimmonds and co.

Sure, it helps the Leafs are winning a bit more but even at the same pace and let's say Tyler "thank-you Kessel" Seguin had about 8-9 goals- que the bar-b-que. All we would be hearing is oh what could have been...Seguin would have made this team into a legit contender, says so Steve Schimmonds.

Are you trying to make us angry? I mean this to me just stinks of a certain mythical creature that is rumored to live under a bridge....

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Old
03-02-2013, 08:42 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
In other words completely disregard any statistic that doesn't show PK in a positive light.

Can't talk about Goals anymore
Can't talk about Plus/Minus
Can't talk about Hits
Can't talk about his Defensive Play (except the one or two times he backchecked one game in his career)
Can't talk about Blocked shots
Can't talk about Even Strength Offence
Can't even talk about the success of other players on roster without giving PK credit for "Drawing other teams top defendors" thus making it easier for them lol
Can't talk about the players that we traded to acquire him.
Up until this week we couldn't even discuss the merits of trading him ...

I guess all thats left are assists - he's 32nd in the NHL with 12 - Our very own Nazim Kadri has him beat with 13 though
I'll take the words of several duck fans and my eyes over stats such as those in the game of Hockey. In baseball WAR plays a crucial role but NHL is a different beast, and it's accepted as such. Still couldn't answer my question could you? If Corsi is so reliable then why is that Gillis who apparently follow it strongly wasn't able to get the cup against the bruins, nor later on?

Teemu was a bit crazy in his defensive game when he was playing under carlyle, yea he was using his body effectively but not playing a whole game, yet here we are, him scoring like a legend still and playing a two way game that still makes him a respectable man on the ice. This is him in twilight years and in his prime, why can't a player like Phil Kessel who is still playing with a third line center in bozak be able to accomplish the same thing? Why is that not into consideration? Oh yea remember players like Dan Sexton, and Bobby ryan? How about them, forget them so easily? Yea Kessel will never be a hard hitting powerforward but he'll always make his line mates better, be it a third line center bozak, a up-coming JVR, or a reclamation project Lupul. When he finds players with skills, he'll elevate his skill as he can feed off it. Atleast this season he's showing, albeit the past few games he's been atrocious along with the entire club, he's willing to back check, use his body to cover the puck in the o-zone from time to time, and stick check and forecheck. Comparing that to his wilson's age? I'm happy and he'll get better under Carlyle's Tutelage.

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03-02-2013, 09:10 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by shibbiness View Post
My beef with Kessel is that if he and another player go to the boards, 90% of the time the other guy will come out with the puck. I like Kessel but sometimes it is brutal to watch.
Kessel is like the elite wingers in NHL96. They never go into the corner just float past the blue line and snipe an amazing shot. No driving net, no digging pucks out of the corner, no cycling the puck. He is what he is. But blaming bozak or other linemates is ridiculous. JVR doesn't have to make excuses for not scoring goals. Taveres neither. Kessel needs to find a way to score more. And it is 100% on him

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Old
03-02-2013, 09:26 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
I'll take the words of several duck fans and my eyes over stats such as those in the game of Hockey. In baseball WAR plays a crucial role but NHL is a different beast, and it's accepted as such. Still couldn't answer my question could you? If Corsi is so reliable then why is that Gillis who apparently follow it strongly wasn't able to get the cup against the bruins, nor later on?

Teemu was a bit crazy in his defensive game when he was playing under carlyle, yea he was using his body effectively but not playing a whole game, yet here we are, him scoring like a legend still and playing a two way game that still makes him a respectable man on the ice. This is him in twilight years and in his prime, why can't a player like Phil Kessel who is still playing with a third line center in bozak be able to accomplish the same thing? Why is that not into consideration? Oh yea remember players like Dan Sexton, and Bobby ryan? How about them, forget them so easily? Yea Kessel will never be a hard hitting powerforward but he'll always make his line mates better, be it a third line center bozak, a up-coming JVR, or a reclamation project Lupul. When he finds players with skills, he'll elevate his skill as he can feed off it. Atleast this season he's showing, albeit the past few games he's been atrocious along with the entire club, he's willing to back check, use his body to cover the puck in the o-zone from time to time, and stick check and forecheck. Comparing that to his wilson's age? I'm happy and he'll get better under Carlyle's Tutelage.
After Brown's hit in Montreal, the vast vast majority of leaf fans here (maybe even 100% of them) said that the ref over-reacted.
On the Habs forum however, the vast vast majority claimed that Brown AT THE VERY LEAST deserved a 5 and a game.
My point?
People dramatically underestimate how badly bias affects their opinions.

Which is why I'm VERY skeptical when someone says something like "I trust my own eyes over those well researched statistics".

Kessel has decent vision, an excellent wrist shot, and great speed.
When he's "on", those strengths and his overall production outweigh his weaknesses.
But when he's "off", his weaknesses are a flat out liability for the team.

And those well researched stats prove that... regardless of how leaf fans biased "eyes" respond to those statistics.

If Kessel could EVER find consistency in his game, he'd be much more of a legitimate star player.
But it's now been 7 years and inconsistency seems to be a theme.
If he wants anything over 6 million, let him walk.

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Old
03-02-2013, 09:28 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Tonka View Post
...today Tyler Seguin scored his whopping 4th goal of the year.

That's right- the media, and many Leafs "fans" would be all over Kessel and ripping the guy left and right over every opportunity they could get. I barely hear anything on the radio about it. Sure there has been the odd speculation of trading him for Perry or his next contract but there isn't much attention especially since Kessel just played two very weak games against the NYI and Habs. Possibly his softest games since the debaucle with Rotten Ronnie...and there was a tonne of media coverage over that.

But if the prodigy, Tyler "thank-you Kessel" Seguin had been playing at even an average production rate, Kessel would be pig roast by now thanks to Schimmonds and co.

Sure, it helps the Leafs are winning a bit more but even at the same pace and let's say Tyler "thank-you Kessel" Seguin had about 8-9 goals- que the bar-b-que. All we would be hearing is oh what could have been...Seguin would have made this team into a legit contender, says so Steve Schimmonds.
I never disliked the trade because we got a very young Kessel who is still the best player out of the lot. If we had drafted Kessel and he became the player he is today, many will be very happy, but because we traded for him, somehow he is crap.

For a supposedly labelled franchise superstar centre Seguin sure is enjoying his time being sheltered on the wing. Was Toews ever sheltered on the wing? Or Joe Thornton? Even our own up-and-coming Kadri is playing centre right now, learning the ropes of what it means to play a complete game, sharpening his craft in the face-off circle AND leading his team in scoring...but "the franchise" Tyler Seguin can't beat out the other Bruins' centres to play centre.

I'll take Kessel with his amazing speed, play-making and goal-scoring abilities, and shot over Seguin any day.

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Old
03-02-2013, 09:37 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Superstar View Post
I never disliked the trade because we got a very young Kessel who is still the best player out of the lot. If we had drafted Kessel and he became the player he is today, many will be very happy, but because we traded for him, somehow he is crap.

For a supposedly labelled franchise superstar centre Seguin sure is enjoying his time being sheltered on the wing. Was Toews ever sheltered on the wing? Or Joe Thornton? Even our own up-and-coming Kadri is playing centre right now, learning the ropes of what it means to play a complete game, sharpening his craft in the face-off circle AND leading his team in scoring...but "the franchise" Tyler Seguin can't beat out the other Bruins' centres to play centre.

I'll take Kessel with his amazing speed, play-making and goal-scoring abilities, and shot over Seguin any day.
Seguin was drafted onto a Stanley Cup winning star laden team.
This is a VERY rare thing to happen, because such talented teams rarely (if ever) come across such a high draft pick. It takes a GM making a blunder of legendary proportions for a situation like this to happen.

Thornton and Toews were both drafted onto pathetic teams lacking depth at center, so they were immediately slotted into their preferred positions.
And in regards to Kadri.... I'm literlly SHOCKED that you're trying to use him as an example. HE WAS IN THE AHL 3 YEARS AFTER BEING DRAFTED!!!! Seguin is on the 2nd line wing.
What an absurd comparison.

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03-02-2013, 10:03 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Seguin was drafted onto a Stanley Cup winning star laden team.
This is a VERY rare thing to happen, because such talented teams rarely (if ever) come across such a high draft pick. It takes a GM making a blunder of legendary proportions for a situation like this to happen.

Thornton and Toews were both drafted onto pathetic teams lacking depth at center, so they were immediately slotted into their preferred positions.
And in regards to Kadri.... I'm literlly SHOCKED that you're trying to use him as an example. HE WAS IN THE AHL 3 YEARS AFTER BEING DRAFTED!!!! Seguin is on the 2nd line wing.
What an absurd comparison.
Oh, so he's playing sheltered minutes as a 2nd line winger, not even on the 1st line facing the opposition's best? I see.

That doesn't change the fact that Toews and Thornton are better players than Seguin, got it? I don't understand the hate people heave at Kessel because of the trade. Just because Seguin was drafted at #2 doesn't mean he's an automatic franchise player or better than Kessel -- heck David Legwand was drafted #2 overall.

Kadri was in the AHL because Wilson and Burke thought it was best for his development, though I'm sure he would have given Seguin's 22 pt rookie campaign a run for the money had he been given the chance to play with the Leafs much earlier. Burke developed Bobby Ryan the same way.

Not all drafts are the same, you have to look at a player for what they are, how they were developed and how they play, and right now Kadri (though not much older and some called a bust) is playing better than Seguin, who is supposed to be some kind of an elite franchise centre...but not playing centre. The irony.

You know what is absurd? The continual hate against Kessel!

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03-02-2013, 10:26 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Seguin was drafted onto a Stanley Cup winning star laden team.
Stanley Cup winning team? Sure. Star laden? Hardly.

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Old
03-02-2013, 10:27 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by johnny_rudeboy View Post
We play a system and have installed a mentality in the team that is not about individual production. Hopefully the media and fans get that. I rather have a back checking winger helping his team to win even if he dont maximize his offensive potential spending time limiting the offensive chances for the other team. So far this season Kessel seem to have bought in to it, I do wonder if he want to do it in the future as well but that is a whole different question that needs an answer some time in the summer.
here we are.

the Naz line hasn't been drawing team's best checking players as well.

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03-02-2013, 10:32 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
After Brown's hit in Montreal, the vast vast majority of leaf fans here (maybe even 100% of them) said that the ref over-reacted.
On the Habs forum however, the vast vast majority claimed that Brown AT THE VERY LEAST deserved a 5 and a game.
My point?
People dramatically underestimate how badly bias affects their opinions.

Which is why I'm VERY skeptical when someone says something like "I trust my own eyes over those well researched statistics".

Kessel has decent vision, an excellent wrist shot, and great speed.
When he's "on", those strengths and his overall production outweigh his weaknesses.
But when he's "off", his weaknesses are a flat out liability for the team.

And those well researched stats prove that... regardless of how leaf fans biased "eyes" respond to those statistics.

If Kessel could EVER find consistency in his game, he'd be much more of a legitimate star player.
But it's now been 7 years and inconsistency seems to be a theme.
If he wants anything over 6 million, let him walk.
It's funny I have to argue more with my leaf brethren about how biased they are against their own players than my level headed friends who are senators, habs and so on fans. Yea I'm a leaf fan but I always try to do a fair assessment, and call out players even in their good times.

As I said, this isn't baseball. This is hockey, and if Corsi was such a major contribution why aren't other teams using it extensively as the canucks are apparently?


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Old
03-02-2013, 10:38 PM
  #89
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Oh, so he's playing sheltered minutes as a 2nd line winger, not even on the 1st line facing the opposition's best? I see.

That doesn't change the fact that Toews and Thornton are better players than Seguin, got it? I don't understand the hate people heave at Kessel because of the trade. Just because Seguin was drafted at #2 doesn't mean he's an automatic franchise player or better than Kessel -- heck David Legwand was drafted #2 overall.

Kadri was in the AHL because Wilson and Burke thought it was best for his development, though I'm sure he would have given Seguin's 22 pt rookie campaign a run for the money had he been given the chance to play with the Leafs much earlier. Burke developed Bobby Ryan the same way.

Not all drafts are the same, you have to look at a player for what they are, how they were developed and how they play, and right now Kadri (though not much older and some called a bust) is playing better than Seguin, who is supposed to be some kind of an elite franchise centre...but not playing centre. The irony.

You know what is absurd? The continual hate against Kessel!
Kessel is a 7 year veteran.
Seguin is a 3rd year 21 year old player.

Yet it's STILL arguable which is RIGHT NOW the better player.

Seguin is leading his star laden team in plus/minus and is unquestionably better defensively.
Kessel is showcasing his usual pathetic plus minus... even with a team that scores more goals than they allow.

Both have a lack luster 4 goals.
Kessel has more assists... but has first line minutes and first line powerplay time.

It's arguable who is better RIGHT NOW. Let alone considering that Seguin is still growing... while Kessel has more than likely reached his prime.

It's a PATHETIC trade just when comparing Seguin to Kessel.
When you add in Hamilton, it becomes flat out humiliating.,

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03-03-2013, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
It's funny I have to argue more with my leaf brethren about how biased they are against their own players than my level headed friends who are senators, habs and so on fans. Yea I'm a leaf fan but I always try to do a fair assessment, and call out players even in their good times.

As I said, this isn't baseball. This is hockey, and if Corsi was such a major contribution why aren't other teams using it extensively as the canucks are apparently?
You do realize you are making an the argument that Stats aren't important - because a team failed to win Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals right?

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03-03-2013, 04:15 PM
  #91
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I'll take the words of several duck fans and my eyes over stats such as those in the game of Hockey. In baseball WAR plays a crucial role but NHL is a different beast, and it's accepted as such. Still couldn't answer my question could you? If Corsi is so reliable then why is that Gillis who apparently follow it strongly wasn't able to get the cup against the bruins, nor later on?

Teemu was a bit crazy in his defensive game when he was playing under carlyle, yea he was using his body effectively but not playing a whole game, yet here we are, him scoring like a legend still and playing a two way game that still makes him a respectable man on the ice. This is him in twilight years and in his prime, why can't a player like Phil Kessel who is still playing with a third line center in bozak be able to accomplish the same thing? Why is that not into consideration? Oh yea remember players like Dan Sexton, and Bobby ryan? How about them, forget them so easily? Yea Kessel will never be a hard hitting powerforward but he'll always make his line mates better, be it a third line center bozak, a up-coming JVR, or a reclamation project Lupul. When he finds players with skills, he'll elevate his skill as he can feed off it. Atleast this season he's showing, albeit the past few games he's been atrocious along with the entire club, he's willing to back check, use his body to cover the puck in the o-zone from time to time, and stick check and forecheck. Comparing that to his wilson's age? I'm happy and he'll get better under Carlyle's Tutelage.
Good post.

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03-03-2013, 06:21 PM
  #92
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Would any of the posters on here trade Kessel straight up for Seguin today.I would.

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03-03-2013, 06:29 PM
  #93
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Considering Kessels was traded for draft picks, Seguin does not belong in the equation for me. Both teams got what they needed at the time. THE END!

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03-03-2013, 06:32 PM
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Seguin has 4 goals 9 assists for 13 points in 18 games. Ppg of .722 He's also a plus 14

Kessal has 4 goals 12 assists in 22 games for a ppg of .727. He's also a minus 1.

The premise of this thread is flawed. If Seguin's production is bad then so is Kessals

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03-03-2013, 06:41 PM
  #95
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Considering Kessels was traded for draft picks, Seguin does not belong in the equation for me. Both teams got what they needed at the time. THE END!
WTF does this even mean . People keep saying this to defend the trade and i have no idea what they think this proves . Did you not think the picks would eventually have a name associated with them ?

And why the **** did a lottery team need with soft sniper at the start of a long rebuild ?

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03-03-2013, 06:42 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Seguin has 4 goals 9 assists for 13 points in 18 games. Ppg of .722 He's also a plus 14

Kessal has 4 goals 12 assists in 22 games for a ppg of .727. He's also a minus 1.

The premise of this thread is flawed. If Seguin's production is bad then so is Kessals
Neither is bad people on this prospects board are just bum hurt of trading a pick that ended up being a 2nd overall pick also boston is one of the best defensive teams in the league i would hope almost the whole team is a + the only small relative thing +/- does is comparing teammates

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03-03-2013, 07:08 PM
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The major problem in my books is that Kessel has absolutely poor offensive zone instincts. He just has his wicked wristshot which is great for sniping on the rush with his fast speed.

He needs to watch gameplay videos of Brett Hull, Stamkos, and other great snipers and watch how they angle themselves for onetimers, slapshots, and touch passes.

Kessel doesnt have to be physical, he just has to be better about being available to use his disgusting shot.

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03-03-2013, 07:48 PM
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The major problem in my books is that Kessel has absolutely poor offensive zone instincts. He just has his wicked wristshot which is great for sniping on the rush with his fast speed.

He needs to watch gameplay videos of Brett Hull, Stamkos, and other great snipers and watch how they angle themselves for onetimers, slapshots, and touch passes.

Kessel doesnt have to be physical, he just has to be better about being available to use his disgusting shot.

the major part that is wrong with this post(IMO) is...teams key on Kessel...so he has adjusted and is showing his ability as an NHL playmaker...goals count only for the team...they don't care how they come....Phill is using his talent to bamboozle the 'pones....if he ain't scoring he is setting up a goal...either way its good for the Buds!!!

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03-03-2013, 08:07 PM
  #99
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Neither is bad people on this prospects board are just bum hurt of trading a pick that ended up being a 2nd overall pick also boston is one of the best defensive teams in the league i would hope almost the whole team is a + the only small relative thing +/- does is comparing teammates
And Seguin is leading his entire elite cup contending team in +/-.
While Kessel is somewhere near 20th on his team.

The Kessel apocalypse was just such a bad trade. Such a ridiculous and humiliating trade.
It will be Burkes legacy. A pathetic, disgusting trade.

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03-03-2013, 08:16 PM
  #100
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the major part that is wrong with this post(IMO) is...teams key on Kessel...so he has adjusted and is showing his ability as an NHL playmaker...goals count only for the team...they don't care how they come....Phill is using his talent to bamboozle the 'pones....if he ain't scoring he is setting up a goal...either way its good for the Buds!!!
Either way it's good for the buds?

Uh... except for the fact that Kessel is still a minus player.
Even on a team that scores more goals than it allows.

So when Kessel is on the ice, it is more likely the OTHER team will score, not the leafs.

How could that possibly be spun into a postitive?

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