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Jeff Carter "Only Scores in Blowouts"

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Old
03-02-2013, 01:12 PM
  #26
potsiev2
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As a flyers fan watching pretty much the majority of flyers games over the past two decades i feel like i can chime in accurately here regarding carter and his time in philly. Carter was extremely supported by the diehard fans in philly and that was evident by the jerseys that flooded the stadium every home game. Carters biggest issue and the main gripe fans had with him was the fact that he had some lazy moments in a flyer uniform. He also went through a very long stretch where he became a perimeter player that took shots from some of the dumbest angles you could imagine. He was a bit of momentum killer at times with some of those shots. Carter also had stretches where he was extremely sound on the defensive end and played incredibly well for stretches. Good for him and kings fans that he's putting it together in a kings uniform and he's earning that contract. I don't think many flyer fans are surprised by carters success in LA. They have good leadership and LA fits carters lifestyle much better. Carter was a mixed bag in Philly. Am i bitter ? Awesome goal by voracek!!! ... smart play couturier!!!

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03-02-2013, 02:18 PM
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I wish we could say ridiculous comments like "he only scores in blowouts" were exclusive to the Flyer fan base, but it happens with everyone, even this board. There have been some hilarious comments about former Kings who have gone on to thrive elsewhere.

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03-02-2013, 03:23 PM
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I wish we could say ridiculous comments like "he only scores in blowouts" were exclusive to the Flyer fan base, but it happens with everyone, even this board. There have been some hilarious comments about former Kings who have gone on to thrive elsewhere.
As of that doesn't happen with all teams.

Players always develop their game and evolve as the game does. Some players go in the wrong direction. If all the GMs had a crystal ball to see where these guys would end up with their game, the league really would have complete and utter parity.

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03-02-2013, 06:07 PM
  #29
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Huge Jeff Carter fan and have followed him since his Soo days. For some reason he was a whipping here in Philly and I think some of it can be traced to the local media who had a axe to grind with Jeff among others. I am glad Jeff is with Mike again because they belong together! But like I have said in the past, I drive them both to the airport for free again cause I just love the players we have now do to the trades. To me it looks like both teams did well(hopefully Columbus makes it all three). Anyway I would not worry to much what others say about Jeff. The guy is a winner.

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03-02-2013, 06:33 PM
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Basically all of those Philly teams had no business having any playoff success. It was a few playoff performers who got them by, most of all Mike Richards. But they didn't have a good enough team and that put heavy, unreasonable pressure on a couple guys to score. It really isn't Jeff Carter's fault that Philly had no top defenseman stud and he's not the guy who put minor leaguers in the Philly net. In LA he isn't expected to get soft goals back.

Put Quick and Bernier in net to stop nearly all shots, Doughty and Voynov and co. behind him to get the outlet pass and suddenly ZOMG CLUTCH. Classic case of putting someone in a position to succeed rather than fail. I bet Philly and Columbus situations had Carter gripping his stick hard especially in close games. Remember when we first got him he seemed snakebit. But his presence alone on the second line caused the entire team to get more space and pushed talent down the lines... Even Penner got in on the act. I mean, how do you use your soft hands when you're that tense? The pressure on him eased up and by second round of the playoffs he became extremely dangerous, especially with his endless gas tanked speed late in 3rd periods. I remember the game he got a hat trick that Richards commented how just it was for Jeff to get some lucky bounces after all of his shot efforts that didn't go in.

Well now it's going in. I haven't seen this much scoring at will since that one crazy season Toman Sandstrom had...not even with Robitaille. And doesn't Jeff look comfortable just shooting it from anywhere?

Welcome home Jeff.

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03-02-2013, 08:04 PM
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I thought this thread was about how Carter only gets lucky at birthday parties.


Ouch.

Dingo? Dingo are you out there?

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03-02-2013, 08:49 PM
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See, that's the thing I don't understand about Flyers fans loving the trades. I am not saying that those players are not great. Simmonds, Voracek, ect., are all outstanding players. But the Kings traded to fulfill a need they had. They traded young potential offensive players for the real deal. They needed grit and leadership. They needed a pure goal scorer. So Carter and Richards fill those roles which is why they are great trades.

However, the Flyers need defensemen and goaltending, and they trade for... more offense. I just don't get this. Trading Carter and Richards for younger Carter and Richards. I don't understand how that makes the team any better. What is the difference?

The biggest thing I can see that it gives the Flyers cap room, but they used it all to sign Bryzgalov and I just have no faith in Bryz.

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03-02-2013, 09:30 PM
  #33
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See, that's the thing I don't understand about Flyers fans loving the trades. I am not saying that those players are not great. Simmonds, Voracek, ect., are all outstanding players. But the Kings traded to fulfill a need they had. They traded young potential offensive players for the real deal. They needed grit and leadership. They needed a pure goal scorer. So Carter and Richards fill those roles which is why they are great trades.

However, the Flyers need defensemen and goaltending, and they trade for... more offense. I just don't get this. Trading Carter and Richards for younger Carter and Richards. I don't understand how that makes the team any better. What is the difference?

The biggest thing I can see that it gives the Flyers cap room, but they used it all to sign Bryzgalov and I just have no faith in Bryz.
The new young guys are playing great, especially Voracek and Simmonds. The main problem with these trades is that they have Bryz for another 7 years after this year. He will be 33 in June so he's on the downside of his prime years. Holmgren also refuses to address the backup goalie situation and keeps bringing back Leighton and Boucher. Until Holmgren deals with these things and also realizes he has to manage the cap so he doesn't have to dump players, nothing will change.

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03-02-2013, 10:05 PM
  #34
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The new young guys are playing great, especially Voracek and Simmonds. The main problem with these trades is that they have Bryz for another 7 years after this year. He will be 33 in June so he's on the downside of his prime years. Holmgren also refuses to address the backup goalie situation and keeps bringing back Leighton and Boucher. Until Holmgren deals with these things and also realizes he has to manage the cap so he doesn't have to dump players, nothing will change.
Yes, this is what confuses me. Every time I point this out to my friends and family who are all Flyers fans, though. I either get the "I don't want to talk about it" or the "Richards and Carter were never going to win a cup in Philly cause they are partying frat boys."

It just seems illogical to me.

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03-02-2013, 10:15 PM
  #35
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Carter also never hits the net. Like ever.


And I don't want to hear stupid facts like how he led the Flyers in shots on goal 4 years in a row.



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03-02-2013, 10:53 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by jml87 View Post
See, that's the thing I don't understand about Flyers fans loving the trades. I am not saying that those players are not great. Simmonds, Voracek, ect., are all outstanding players. But the Kings traded to fulfill a need they had. They traded young potential offensive players for the real deal. They needed grit and leadership. They needed a pure goal scorer. So Carter and Richards fill those roles which is why they are great trades.

However, the Flyers need defensemen and goaltending, and they trade for... more offense. I just don't get this. Trading Carter and Richards for younger Carter and Richards. I don't understand how that makes the team any better. What is the difference?

The biggest thing I can see that it gives the Flyers cap room, but they used it all to sign Bryzgalov and I just have no faith in Bryz.
well, Brayden Schenn was arguably "the best prospect in hockey at the time", we got him to replace Richards (at some point). I would assume that Johnson, Voynov, or Bernier couldn't be included with him when the trade was done...

With Carter, we got Voracek as his replacement, and then picked Couturier...but we could have had Hamilton I guess...chose not to...valued Couturier more I guess, BPA is always better.

It's hard not to be happy with the return we got, we basically hit on all 4 principles we got, and Grossmann too as a related trade.

And...these trades were made for pure shakeup reasons...there is no way I can prove it, but its pretty obvious if you ask me. We were having issues with team chemistry, and that's not debatable.

As far as being better, it depends on how you look at it. Giroux gets more ice time, we got 4 players for 2, and those players turned our clock back 3 years...

Clearly, its worked out nicely for both teams.

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03-02-2013, 10:56 PM
  #37
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Carter also never hits the net. Like ever.


And I don't want to hear stupid facts like how he led the Flyers in shots on goal 4 years in a row.


He did miss the net alot...Carter just had ALOT of bad luck with injuries come playoff time, and the few times he wasn't hurt he just didn't get it done offensively. He clearly has the talent. Glad for him that he's been able to do well for LA.

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03-02-2013, 11:11 PM
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well, Brayden Schenn was arguably "the best prospect in hockey at the time", we got him to replace Richards (at some point). I would assume that Johnson, Voynov, or Bernier couldn't be included with him when the trade was done...

With Carter, we got Voracek as his replacement, and then picked Couturier...but we could have had Hamilton I guess...chose not to...valued Couturier more I guess, BPA is always better.

It's hard not to be happy with the return we got, we basically hit on all 4 principles we got, and Grossmann too as a related trade.

And...these trades were made for pure shakeup reasons...there is no way I can prove it, but its pretty obvious if you ask me. We were having issues with team chemistry, and that's not debatable.

As far as being better, it depends on how you look at it. Giroux gets more ice time, we got 4 players for 2, and those players turned our clock back 3 years...

Clearly, its worked out nicely for both teams.
So nothing to do with Leighton, Bobrovsky, and Boucher playing goalie roulette in net? How does a team with terrible chemistry go to the stanley cup finals the year before? And no one said there was any issue with chemistry, nor has there been any problems with Carter and Richards on the Kings.

It's exactly like you said, you turned back the clock 3 years. What makes the next 3 years any different? Just put some damn defense and goaltending behind Carter and Richards and they would've won a cup in Philly.

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03-02-2013, 11:28 PM
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So nothing to do with Leighton, Bobrovsky, and Boucher playing goalie roulette in net? How does a team with terrible chemistry go to the stanley cup finals the year before? And no one said there was any issue with chemistry, nor has there been any problems with Carter and Richards on the Kings.

It's exactly like you said, you turned back the clock 3 years. What makes the next 3 years any different? Just put some damn defense and goaltending behind Carter and Richards and they would've won a cup in Philly.
I don't believe that we would have won a cup in Philly with those players in the roles they had and the team dynamic that existed. I also think they get the benefit of being "behind" Kopi and Brown on your team. IMO, they are FAR better 2nd liners, than 1st liners, which they largely were for us.

As another guy mentioned earlier, perhaps the trade woke them up a bit. LA is a much better place to play than Philly, from a spotlight standpoint. Richards and the Philly media did not get along, and I can't imagine that set well with the organization with him being the captain and all. Lavi and Richards didn't get along, and rumors are that he and Pronger didn't see eye to eye.

With the team chemistry cup thing, we had as easy a path to the finals as you could have asked for, our team defense made leighton look great, until CHI gave us matchup nightmares. The following season we looked great for the first half of the year, and then that last half was just awful...and it never improved after that.

I also don't believe that this was ALL paul holmgren's doing. Ed Snider is nearly 80, and I don't think he wants anything as bad as another Stanley cup.

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03-03-2013, 12:03 AM
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I don't believe that we would have won a cup in Philly with those players in the roles they had and the team dynamic that existed. I also think they get the benefit of being "behind" Kopi and Brown on your team. IMO, they are FAR better 2nd liners, than 1st liners, which they largely were for us.

As another guy mentioned earlier, perhaps the trade woke them up a bit. LA is a much better place to play than Philly, from a spotlight standpoint. Richards and the Philly media did not get along, and I can't imagine that set well with the organization with him being the captain and all. Lavi and Richards didn't get along, and rumors are that he and Pronger didn't see eye to eye.

With the team chemistry cup thing, we had as easy a path to the finals as you could have asked for, our team defense made leighton look great, until CHI gave us matchup nightmares. The following season we looked great for the first half of the year, and then that last half was just awful...and it never improved after that.

I also don't believe that this was ALL paul holmgren's doing. Ed Snider is nearly 80, and I don't think he wants anything as bad as another Stanley cup.
But then you have Giroux to be your first liner so again, what is the problem? Even if they are only second liners like you believe, you still have Giroux up with Hartnell to be your first line. The only reason why that wouldn't happen is coaching which has nothing to do with Carter and Richards.

Richards had a problem with Pronger and Lavi? Well, now Pronger is gone and Laviolette's future is shaky. You gave up your franchise players, younger and more durable, cause the coach and the known locker room problem, didn't like them. So, what was the point?

And you still haven't addressed the fact that your goaltending behind them was awful. You could have Sidney Crosby, Malkin, and Stamkos on your team but you still wouldn't win a thing with a goalie that gives up goals like this:


Every time the opposing team is in your zone. Ed Snider may really want a cup, but he's also stuck in the 1970s mindset and he completely overreacts by doing things like signing a 30 year old goaltender to a 10 year contract.

The Kings won cause they held onto their players and developed the right team. Brown and Kopitar didn't make it past the first round of the playoffs until last year, but Lombardi didn't give up on them. They waited and they traded for the pieces they needed until they had a very well rounded team. Then they won.

I don't understand how hitting the self destruct button every five years only to follow the same path every single time, is going to get the Flyers a Stanley Cup. Richards and Carter are only the latest in a long line of outstanding forwards who haven't won a Cup in Philly. The Flyers losing had nothing to do with them.

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03-03-2013, 12:31 AM
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But then you have Giroux to be your first liner so again, what is the problem? Even if they are only second liners like you believe, you still have Giroux up with Hartnell to be your first line. The only reason why that wouldn't happen is coaching which has nothing to do with Carter and Richards.

Richards had a problem with Pronger and Lavi? Well, now Pronger is gone and Laviolette's future is shaky. You gave up your franchise players, younger and more durable, cause the coach and the known locker room problem, didn't like them. So, what was the point?

And you still haven't addressed the fact that your goaltending behind them was awful. You could have Sidney Crosby, Malkin, and Stamkos on your team but you still wouldn't win a thing with a goalie that gives up goals like this:


Every time the opposing team is in your zone. Ed Snider may really want a cup, but he's also stuck in the 1970s mindset and he completely overreacts by doing things like signing a 30 year old goaltender to a 10 year contract.

The Kings won cause they held onto their players and developed the right team. Brown and Kopitar didn't make it past the first round of the playoffs until last year, but Lombardi didn't give up on them. They waited and they traded for the pieces they needed until they had a very well rounded team. Then they won.

I don't understand how hitting the self destruct button every five years only to follow the same path every single time, is going to get the Flyers a Stanley Cup. Richards and Carter are only the latest in a long line of outstanding forwards who haven't won a Cup in Philly. The Flyers losing had nothing to do with them.
Well, I agree about the Goaltending, and Bryz's deal...its not what I would have done. For disclosure, I'm a believer that a goalie can be helped alot by playing certain systems, I'm not a big fan of goaltending stats being a sole indicator of a goalie's performance.

The Pronger situation is sort of unfortunate for us, he was playing at a high level for us, and his injury was kind of a freak injury. Something like this could happen to anyone's "asset". But certainly, losing him has been a major setback, because of his on ice hole and also that we gave up so much to get him.

The point, IMO, is that we wanted to switch to the veteran leadership we had, we had a young guy coming up who was going to be the face of the franchise, and we got VERY good deals for both players. I don't think we would have traded them if we hadn't.

I do think Snider got tired of Richards and Carter not being who they wanted them to be. We had already traded their BFFs in Lupul and Upshall.

I don't think they were traded for anything on-ice related.

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03-03-2013, 11:03 AM
  #42
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Well, I agree about the Goaltending, and Bryz's deal...its not what I would have done. For disclosure, I'm a believer that a goalie can be helped alot by playing certain systems, I'm not a big fan of goaltending stats being a sole indicator of a goalie's performance.

The Pronger situation is sort of unfortunate for us, he was playing at a high level for us, and his injury was kind of a freak injury. Something like this could happen to anyone's "asset". But certainly, losing him has been a major setback, because of his on ice hole and also that we gave up so much to get him.

The point, IMO, is that we wanted to switch to the veteran leadership we had, we had a young guy coming up who was going to be the face of the franchise, and we got VERY good deals for both players. I don't think we would have traded them if we hadn't.

I do think Snider got tired of Richards and Carter not being who they wanted them to be. We had already traded their BFFs in Lupul and Upshall.

I don't think they were traded for anything on-ice related.
They traded Upshall because they had to make cap space. If they hadn't made a trade they would have had to send Giroux to the AHL. Then when Snider said they had to get a goalie they had to clear more cap space and I think they also took advantage of both of them not having their NTCs take effect. The gossip and speculation is just that, gossip and speculation. They threw Richards in a role that he didn't really want and proclaimed him the next Bobby Clarke which was ridiculous. I remember they wanted to give Gags the captaincy before that and he refused it. As for chemistry and Pronger, you don't have to get along with everyone to have an effective team. There was no problem with chemistry when they got to game 6 of the 2010 playoffs, nor was their a problem with Richards and Pronger being on the gold medal winning team in the Olympics.

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03-03-2013, 11:20 AM
  #43
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Philly just needs to have a little more structure to their D game.

Also a better Goalie.

But a sound Defensive system would be a good start. They would take a lot of East teams by surprise if they started playing a more structured game.

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03-03-2013, 04:05 PM
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well, Brayden Schenn was arguably "the best prospect in hockey at the time", we got him to replace Richards (at some point). I would assume that Johnson, Voynov, or Bernier couldn't be included with him when the trade was done...

With Carter, we got Voracek as his replacement, and then picked Couturier...but we could have had Hamilton I guess...chose not to...valued Couturier more I guess, BPA is always better.

It's hard not to be happy with the return we got, we basically hit on all 4 principles we got, and Grossmann too as a related trade.

And...these trades were made for pure shakeup reasons...there is no way I can prove it, but its pretty obvious if you ask me. We were having issues with team chemistry, and that's not debatable.

As far as being better, it depends on how you look at it. Giroux gets more ice time, we got 4 players for 2, and those players turned our clock back 3 years...

Clearly, its worked out nicely for both teams.


Do not forget to add Nick Cousins also, a 19 year old who is tearing up the "O". Thats six for two. Sweet.

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03-03-2013, 04:25 PM
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Thanks Philly!


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03-03-2013, 04:34 PM
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[/B]

Do not forget to add Nick Cousins also, a 19 year old who is tearing up the "O". Thats six for two. Sweet.
Should be interesting to see if he can win the scoring title while sitting out his current suspension. Then there's that pesky little charge involving a girl that is still pending but hey, Philly got rid of the big, bad trouble makers, right?

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03-04-2013, 04:38 AM
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I would've preferred bernier over simmonds or schenn but i don't think the kings were willing to deal bernier. With that said i still take voracek,simmonds,schenn,couturier,cousins over richards and carter . The kings won a cup which in return makes them see things much differently. They won the cup because of the great defensive system and stud goaltending. I'm willing to bet 75% of hockey fans would say the flyers future is brighter now then it was with richards and carter. Carter and Richards are role players and are no longer counted on to be horses which is best for the kings and them. As far as bryz goes he was such a horrible signing but the CBA and the amnesty clause could save them

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03-04-2013, 07:14 AM
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I would've preferred bernier over simmonds or schenn but i don't think the kings were willing to deal bernier. With that said i still take voracek,simmonds,schenn,couturier,cousins over richards and carter . The kings won a cup which in return makes them see things much differently. They won the cup because of the great defensive system and stud goaltending. I'm willing to bet 75% of hockey fans would say the flyers future is brighter now then it was with richards and carter. Carter and Richards are role players and are no longer counted on to be horses which is best for the kings and them. As far as bryz goes he was such a horrible signing but the CBA and the amnesty clause could save them
Their future is brighter assuming all these guys can be signed. Homer can't give long contracts that are heavily front loaded anymore. They also don't have many good defensemen, no #1 and with Kimmo getting older and signed for 1 more season at 6 mill, that will likely be it. Add in a soon to be 33 year old Bryz with no defencemen or goalies down the pipeline and you have a lot of issues.

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03-04-2013, 07:44 AM
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Ah yes, role players. Role players who scored 28 points in the playoffs and averaged 19 minutes of ice time every game. God, it's like people think these guys were third liners who road the coat tails to success.

And the future is brighter? The future is the same.

Flyers with Giroux at the top (2011-2012):
264 goals, 232 goals allowed

Flyers with Richards at the top (2008-2009):
264 goals, 238 goals allowed

What is the difference? These are the exact same numbers you've always been getting.

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03-04-2013, 12:23 PM
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richards and carter are both 28.... if you don't think the flyers future is brighter now with a 21,22,23,24 year old all contributing and progressing at the NHL level i question your sanity. The 2 buyouts could potentially correct the flyers mistakes but holmgren could always decide to mess that up again with a goalie like luongo. I realize that your kings won a Cup and with that comes an outlook of greater opinions and new found knowledge. The tampa bay lightning and carolina hurricanes fans once shared that same gift.

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