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JVR to Edmonton

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Old
03-04-2013, 05:11 AM
  #101
A1LeafNation
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Originally Posted by cheesesteak View Post
I am a JVR fan but this is nuts IMO. JVR has had a good 20 games or so but there's no way he's worth one of their golden assets and you're adding a 1st onto that. Honestly after reading this thread JVR has to be one of the most overrated players value wise on HF right now...he's had a good start to the season and now he's all of a sudden reached his potential as #2 overall and the Leafs already won the trade according to someone else in this thread. How about we see him do it over a 82 games season first? And I'm one of the people who always thought JVR would be a consistent 30+ goal guy.
Says the flyers fan. Leafs aren't interested in trading JVR, he is a beaut.

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03-04-2013, 05:52 AM
  #102
Honour Over Glory
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Originally Posted by duul View Post
Edmonton could sure use a LW with some size who can put up some points, which wouldn't be too hard playing with Gagner/Hemsky or RNH/Eberle.

I would be willing to trade Edmonton's 1st rounder for JVR straight up.
If the team didn't absolutely ruin Paajarvi's development and potential, you had one.

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03-04-2013, 08:19 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by broc View Post
JVR >>>>> edmontons currently 9th overall first rounder.

This is awful, and you Edmonton dudes started it.
It was 1 Edmonton dude who started it and he apologized for the under value back on page 2.

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Old
03-04-2013, 08:25 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post
If the team didn't absolutely ruin Paajarvi's development and potential, you had one.
Edmonton didn't ruin Paajarvi's development. He's living up to his criticism before draft. He's got size and speed as was advertised but his scoring isn't consistent and he misses some open chances. His hands were always an issue.

He stayed an extra year in the SEL, put up 34 points in his rookie season with 15 goals, and was sent back to the AHL to work on his game when he struggled in his second year.

He's turning into a defensively responsible player with size and speed. Nothing wrong with that as he still has 2nd line upside.

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Old
03-04-2013, 09:04 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
We would take a young 23 year old out of the lineup who is starting to deliver on his potential so we could go back to the draft and hope that in 5-6 years we have a JVR type breakout?
Stephen.. you know full well that's not what I said because I said nothing in regard to ACTUALLY ACCEPTING the proposed offer. You know better than to jump to conclusions like that.

If you really look at the OP's offer closely solely from a value perspective (since this is a "Vlaue of.." thread and not a "Proposal" thread), you can easily see that it is a very good offer when you consider it from an objective view-point as I have done in my previous post.

If the Leafs were willing to trade JvR (and given his performance thus far this season, I don't see them doing such a thing), acquiring a potential top-10 or even top-5 draft pick in this summer's very strong draft wouldn't be such a bad return when you look at it from a long-term, bigger picture POV.

There's no denying that JvR is having a very good season, but you still have to wonder what's going to happen to his offensive contribution when both Lupul and Frattin come back from injury. Such things are yet to be determined.

So again, from a VALUE perspective, a 1st round pick would be very good value for JvR.

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Old
03-04-2013, 09:54 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by EucaLEAFtys View Post
Stephen.. you know full well that's not what I said because I said nothing in regard to ACTUALLY ACCEPTING the proposed offer. You know better than to jump to conclusions like that.

If you really look at the OP's offer closely solely from a value perspective (since this is a "Vlaue of.." thread and not a "Proposal" thread), you can easily see that it is a very good offer when you consider it from an objective view-point as I have done in my previous post.

If the Leafs were willing to trade JvR (and given his performance thus far this season, I don't see them doing such a thing), acquiring a potential top-10 or even top-5 draft pick in this summer's very strong draft wouldn't be such a bad return when you look at it from a long-term, bigger picture POV.

There's no denying that JvR is having a very good season, but you still have to wonder what's going to happen to his offensive contribution when both Lupul and Frattin come back from injury. Such things are yet to be determined.

So again, from a VALUE perspective, a 1st round pick would be very good value for JvR.
i have a few problems with your arguments;

i wont dispute that edmontons first round pick is valuable because every first rounder is valuable but how can one gauge value when they dont know where the pick actually is. is it 15th overall? 10th overall? 5th overall? 1st overall? obviously the placement makes a difference in overall value of the pick. how can you claim to be evaluating the original proposal objectively when an unkown was offered for a known. i think an objective observer would say that a late first round pick for jvr would be highway robbery, especially if the leafs are trying to get better right away and not sell off quality assets.

in the real world a tangible player who is performing is always > then a draft pick where one hopes they become a tangible player who performs. if we use your logic then how would you feel about toronto offering their first round pick for nuge? objectively its good value because there is a good chance toronto's pick will be top 5 again.

general managers dont gamble if they dont have to. i dont see why edmonton or toronto would take a risk on the pick when they dont need to.

your suggestion that jvr would be behind lupul and frattin is also just wrong (i mean that respectfully, maybe you dont follow the leafs as much as another team). jvr is 23 years old, frattin is 25, and lupul is 29. obviously age is not an indicator of depth but jvr brings whatever frattin and lupul bring + more. there was a reason he was taken so high. jvr is also signed on the cheap for multiple years so if he performs like this he will be an absolute steal from a cap perspective.

realistically frattin would be the odd man out imo if a winger needed to be moved but i feel like to be competitive a team needs to be 3 lines deep. having jvr-kessel, lupul-frattin, and kulemin-mac gives us pretty good depth down the wings.

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Old
03-04-2013, 11:15 AM
  #107
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Did I just read JVR for the Oilers 1st straight up? OK a top 10 pick in a deep draft this year. Yeah Leafs take that and laugh.

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Old
03-04-2013, 11:18 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
JvR isn't going anywhere...Leafs haven't had a big guy that goes to the net, screens the goalie on the PP and scores goals since Andreychuk.

I can't wait till Lupul is back and he plays with Kadri and Frattin.
Gary Roberts?

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Old
03-04-2013, 02:11 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by A1LeafNation View Post
Says the flyers fan. Leafs aren't interested in trading JVR, he is a beaut.
Welcome to HFboards, where a player's reputation never changes unless he has 3 or more consecutive amazing years.

JVR is still an inconsistent waste of a 2nd overall who will never put it together for a full season and Luke Schenn is still a horrendously slow bottom-pairing defenseman who gets routinely beaten around the outside.

Honestly though, I'm a Flyers fan and you do have yourself a beaut with JVR. He was amazing in the 10-11 playoffs, was again AMAZING over the first 19 games of the 11-12 season, where he was basically on a 35-35 pace and then the injuries started. He had already been dealing w/ hip issues and then he tore an abdominal muscle. He had just gotten back from that when he was concussed. Then he had just returned from that when he broke his foot. If he stays healthy (which is should), he will continue to be great for you. Certain Flyers fans just could never cope with the fact that JVR wasn't really "inconsistent", he was simply a young player who suffered a few injuries at the most inopportune times.

With that said, Luke Schenn has also been a beast for us and has played much better than advertised. He's been beaten around the outside maybe once all year (by JVR @ a meaningless point in our first meeting after you'd already locked up the win). He's leading the team in ES points, facing the toughest competition and still keeping opponents off the scoreboard. He's easily been our best defenseman.

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Old
03-04-2013, 02:18 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Sniper99 View Post
Did I just read JVR for the Oilers 1st straight up? OK a top 10 pick in a deep draft this year. Yeah Leafs take that and laugh.
Keep drinking your spiked kool aid big guy, unless that pick is between 1-5 overall I wouldnt consider the deal a steal at all. Think about it if you traded us taylor hall and we had say the 4th overall pick this year would you consider that a steal ?

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Old
03-04-2013, 02:29 PM
  #111
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Why are Oiler fans trying to propose for a guy who's at his all-time high value right now? Why even vy for the over-pay it will require? It's not worth it.

There are cheaper but similar players on the market right now that we could turn into our own JVR if we surround them with our skill players.

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Old
03-04-2013, 02:30 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Sniper99 View Post
Did I just read JVR for the Oilers 1st straight up? OK a top 10 pick in a deep draft this year. Yeah Leafs take that and laugh.


24 yr old, signed long term, cheap. Been over a .5ppg guy career. Good size, great speed. 12 goals in 22 games in his first season as a go to guy offensively

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Old
03-04-2013, 02:43 PM
  #113
EucaLEAFtys
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Originally Posted by gabeliscious View Post
i have a few problems with your arguments;

i wont dispute that edmontons first round pick is valuable because every first rounder is valuable but how can one gauge value when they dont know where the pick actually is. is it 15th overall? 10th overall? 5th overall? 1st overall? obviously the placement makes a difference in overall value of the pick. how can you claim to be evaluating the original proposal objectively when an unkown was offered for a known. i think an objective observer would say that a late first round pick for jvr would be highway robbery, especially if the leafs are trying to get better right away and not sell off quality assets.

in the real world a tangible player who is performing is always > then a draft pick where one hopes they become a tangible player who performs. if we use your logic then how would you feel about toronto offering their first round pick for nuge? objectively its good value because there is a good chance toronto's pick will be top 5 again.

general managers dont gamble if they dont have to. i dont see why edmonton or toronto would take a risk on the pick when they dont need to.

your suggestion that jvr would be behind lupul and frattin is also just wrong (i mean that respectfully, maybe you dont follow the leafs as much as another team). jvr is 23 years old, frattin is 25, and lupul is 29. obviously age is not an indicator of depth but jvr brings whatever frattin and lupul bring + more. there was a reason he was taken so high. jvr is also signed on the cheap for multiple years so if he performs like this he will be an absolute steal from a cap perspective.

realistically frattin would be the odd man out imo if a winger needed to be moved but i feel like to be competitive a team needs to be 3 lines deep. having jvr-kessel, lupul-frattin, and kulemin-mac gives us pretty good depth down the wings.
Let me start off by stating that I've been a Leaf fan for 40+ years now and I keep relatively close tabs on them.

While it is true that Edmonton's draft position is currently in a state of flux (as it is for every team), one can, with some degree of certainty, ascertain into which range their 1st round pick will most likely fall when one factors in things like injuries to key players, the team's overall performance thus far, and situations on other teams that the Oilers can't control.

I don't necessarily agree that the "tangible" player who is performing is always better than a draft pick because it depends on who said player is and which draft pick you're talking about potentially him for. You also have have to consider the value of the pick being offered. First- and second-round picks are going to be very valuable due to the plenitude of high-quality prospective draftees who are draft-eligible this summer. Would I want RNH on the Leafs? Of course, and if the Leafs' first rounder were to fall into the 16th-30th overall range, I'd more than likely give it up, even though this summer's draft looks deeper than it's been in years. But this scenario is not likely to happen unless the Leafs sudenly nose-dive into the basement of the league's standings. If the Leafs were to end up with a top-5 poick this summer, as you've suggested they might, I'd be more inclined to keep the pick than trade it away (unless I were to receive an offer that I just couldn't refuse, of course).

There's no question that the Leafs need a legitimate (preferably bif-bodied) first-line center; the question is how the Leafs plan on acquiring said player. Since high-quality centers are extremely difficult (and in some cases, very costly) to acquire than most other position-players, I would try to do so by using the least amount of assets possible and what the OP has suggested would be a very good way for the Leafs to acquire the type of center they need to eventually fill the #1 center slot, even if it ended up costing them their play-off spot this season.

In my opinion, the OP's offer is more than fair when you consider the principals of the offer, even though the one principal is still an unknown.

I don't see the Leafs doing it though, simply due to their current circumstances. JvR has performed quite well thus far since he was moved up to the top line. But does he really belong there? He's only there because of injuries to both Frattin and Lupu, and with both wingers soon to return to the line-up, I feel that it's more than likely that JvR will get pushed back down due to the chemistry of Lupul-Kessel and Kadri-Frattin. But hey.. anything can happen on that front.

In the real world, GM's will do whatever they believe is best for their team / organization, regardless of what their respective fan-base wants them to do. If a situation arises that warrants a trade, then I see no reason why it shouldn't happen, especially if it's believed that said trade would be beneficial in some way to both sides, but the timing of said trade would also have to be right before the trigger gets pulled. If the timing is bad (see the Kessel trade), it can drastically change a team's future (and not necessarily for the better).

In conclusion, as of RIGHT NOW, IMO the OP's offer is quite fair, given the current circumstances of both teams. Would the two teams act on it if it were a legitimate NHL trade proposal? That would be up to the GM's involved to decide.

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Old
03-04-2013, 03:11 PM
  #114
cheesesteak
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Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
Welcome to HFboards, where a player's reputation never changes unless he has 3 or more consecutive amazing years.

JVR is still an inconsistent waste of a 2nd overall who will never put it together for a full season and Luke Schenn is still a horrendously slow bottom-pairing defenseman who gets routinely beaten around the outside.

Honestly though, I'm a Flyers fan and you do have yourself a beaut with JVR. He was amazing in the 10-11 playoffs, was again AMAZING over the first 19 games of the 11-12 season, where he was basically on a 35-35 pace and then the injuries started. He had already been dealing w/ hip issues and then he tore an abdominal muscle. He had just gotten back from that when he was concussed. Then he had just returned from that when he broke his foot. If he stays healthy (which is should), he will continue to be great for you. Certain Flyers fans just could never cope with the fact that JVR wasn't really "inconsistent", he was simply a young player who suffered a few injuries at the most inopportune times.

With that said, Luke Schenn has also been a beast for us and has played much better than advertised. He's been beaten around the outside maybe once all year (by JVR @ a meaningless point in our first meeting after you'd already locked up the win). He's leading the team in ES points, facing the toughest competition and still keeping opponents off the scoreboard. He's easily been our best defenseman.
I never said JVR was a waste of a 2nd overall who will always be inconsistent(I was never on board with trading him for Schenn and think he will be a really good player). Just a little quick to put him up there with Edmonton's golden assets or say he's matured into the #2 pick he was supposed to be...only 20 something games into a breakout season. Also that's a HUGE exageration to say JVR was AMAZING(in caps) to start last season. He was on pace for 30 goals but he looked lackluster. That was a positive to me though because he was on pace for 30 goals when he wasn't at his best. I think JVR started the season injured? Or there was rumors pretty quick and I sure as hell didn't give up on him he was injured the whole season.

When it comes to this trade i understand Toronto could make the playoffs so they wouldn't trade JVR for a top 10 pick but it's close to fair value at this time IMO. If JVR finishes this season off that could change.

BTW I am very happy with Schenn so far...I don't get the "so says the Flyers fan". It's not like Schenn is playing bad. The trade has really grown own me as someone who was against it. So far it's a win/win for both teams.

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Old
03-04-2013, 06:25 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by broc View Post
JVR was in injury mode last season
He was also far and away Phillys best player in the playoffs before that.
Gagner for JVR = joke. Get lost. Leafs counter with Gardiner for nuge. Nuge is having a down season, so it works right ? That's how you sound.

JVR is playing like a 23 year old top liner with size and speed. A first rounder is not even close to enough for him.
Exactly what i mentioned in my response, if JVR is playing like a 1LW, so is gagner as a 1C. so its not like i sound, because you are basing JVR's value based on this season, and in that regards, take sam Gagner's value for this season, i mean Gagner has more points!!! and the age is exact same!! yea i wouldn't make that trade either if i were you, but i am just pointing out that you guys are inflating JVR's value based on this season, and we can do the same using Gagner!! so a realistic trade would be Gagner + Pajaarvi + Lander + 1st for JVR + Gardiner + bozak. Thats realistic!

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