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Getting back into ice after 16 years of inline-help!

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Old
12-21-2012, 05:02 PM
  #26
ponder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebolav View Post
The speed skating picture helped me immensely, I was starting to think I shouldn't be able to bend my ankles at all. Am I correct, then, that skates without proper ankle support allow the ankle to turn independently of the boot (i.e. too big) OR are too soft/give way to easily, collapsing instead of holding the ankle through the bend? Because if so, then I finally get it, at least for this, and it means my skates do fit.

The attached pictures-outside edge is still pretty bad for me, but I get what # 17 in green is doing there. The other pictures I feel like I am doing properly. The video is sick, wow, I can do what he does *maybe* 33% as well *forward only*. But that's why I'm in a scrub pickup league

I do run, and I'm assuming if I had structural issues with my foot, I would turn my ankles inwards then too, and thus get sore while running in my ankle tendons, etc. But I don't/can go 5+ miles no problem, so that's probably not an issue...?

So I think that rules out a lot of possible problems, except for the hollow. I can't remember where (here maybe?) but I seem to recall that some former inliners found 5/8" or 3/4" or 90/50 FBV hollows easier to stop on, as the inliner tendency to turn the ankle inwards during the stopping motion would then be partially offset by the 'looser' grip on the ice. Am I getting that correctly?

Other than that, off to free skate this weekend, and Happy Holidays to everyone, I really appreciate the lively discussion, it's reignited my passion for this game I had when I was a kid.
Glad I can help! Re: your first question, the main thing your skates should be doing with respect to your ankle is really locking your heel down, you don't want your heel to be slopping around while skating. It doesn't sound like this is a problem for you. In a properly fitting skate:
- Your toes should have some wiggle room
- Your whole foot from the base of your toes to your heel/ankle should be held very snugly, with no movement possible within the boot once it's laced above
- Above the ankle, you should be able to bend forwards into a nice deep stance, and you should be able to roll your skates side to side about as much as shown in some of the pictures I posted earlier

You can try a shallower hollow, it might help you learn to stop/scrape the ice a bit more easily. Ultimately you should be able to stop well on a wide range of hollows, but it might be a slight help when it comes to learning.

It's hard to say for sure without actually watching you run, but I agree that your issue is probably not some inherent foot pronation. If you generally run/walk/stand fine, but let your ankles bend inwards excessively when skating, it's likely just technique/practice. Most new skaters let their ankles bend in even when gliding forwards, that's the whole reason people refer to new skaters/players as "benders." You'll learn to control your ankles with time.

And yeah, Subban is an insanely good skater, none of us will ever be anywhere close to that good, but it's something to shoot for

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebolav View Post
Thanks, that would be awesome of you to do. I'm going to see if I can drag my wife out at least for a few minutes to videotape me so I can see what my feet are doing...
Will do. But I do think you shouldn't worry too much about side-to-side ankle bend with stops, they're done with at least more or less straight ankles. It sounds like your main issue is that you start turning before the stop, which is wrong. You want to be rotating your skate while keeping all of your momentum going forwards. One thing that can help at first is to set up the stop with a deep forward knee bend, then when you're about to stop you straighten up a bit to sort of "unweight" your skates, allowing you to get the blades rotated without initiating any turning, then as you scrape through the stop you can sink back into the knee bend again. Almost like jumping into the stop, but toned down.

Again, the main points are:
- No turning
- Don't "set up" the stop at all
- Just glide straight forwards, rotate your skates 90 degrees, then scrape through the stop while looking forwards, and keeping all of your momentum forwards
- Prevent your ankles from flopping all over the place by holding then firm. If your stop is super choppy, just try to push/scrape through it with more even, constant pressure, from the middle of your blade


Last edited by ponder: 12-21-2012 at 05:10 PM.
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12-21-2012, 05:04 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebolav View Post
Eureka I think I figured out another missing piece-I'm pretty sure that's what my coach actually meant when he said I start turning my ankles before I stop, that I'm actually turning into it before I do it, thus the sharp C-cut, usually ending up 90 degrees rotated from where I was facing to start. Thanks!
Indeed, he probably wasn't so worried about your side-to-side ankle bend, more that you were actually initiating a turn instead of initiating a stop. NO TURNING

Don't worry, turning instead of stopping is what most newer skaters do. I'm sure your roller habits make it an even harder habit to break, but you will break this habit eventually with practice.

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12-23-2012, 11:15 AM
  #28
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Funny self depricating experience:

I must have been spoiled growing up, because other than my backyard, I don't remember ever ice skating outdoors, always had rink time somewhere. So today I go to a park a mile from my house with a decent sized sheet of ice, 5 hours before the warming house opens. I walk over with my equipment, and soon realize it is way too difficult to tie skates while sitting on the ground. So I walk over to a bench, and by this time my fingers are too cold to successfully lace the eyelets. (10 degrees, feels like -1 F).

So I go back to my car, crank the heat, and then start lacing them up in my car. But I quickly discover cars just don't have enough leg room to put skates on, especially since the backseat is taken up by car seats, toys, etc.

So I'm frustrated by this point, walk back to the ice, pick up my equipment and go back to the car, only to realize somewhere along the way one of my skate guards came off in the snow. My blade has several nicks on it from the pavement, even though I only stepped on pavement like 10 steps.

Moral of the story-I rock. I guess if there's no warming house, people either have gigantic cars to put skates on in, or people drop them off?

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12-23-2012, 05:06 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Moral of the story-I rock. I guess if there's no warming house, people either have gigantic cars to put skates on in, or people drop them off?
Not quite..the outdoor rink I grew up on has no shack and only 2 benches..gets -20c-40c here..tie skates fast..usually chilly at first but not once you start skating

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12-24-2012, 09:05 AM
  #30
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I guess as I get better, I will be able to tie my skates faster. I think it would have helped if they were already super loose/ready to go in advance. Lesson learned. But hey, someone could invent skates with detachable bottom parts, so you can drive in them, get to the rink, then snap them back on

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12-26-2012, 04:05 PM
  #31
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So apparently I was wrong about the thicker socks comment. I always felt like my skates were too big for me as a kid, so maybe that is why thicker socks felt nice.

Overall, i've met some people in pick-up who are great players but are lacking some key necessities. Met one guy with the last name France who some players chirped at but he was actually pretty good. Got several breakaways and scored several goals against some kids who play at Mason.

He could NOT stop though. I tried to be nice to him and help him and it seemed like he was improving. He would wiggle his blade when stopping. Overall, you should practice every movement to get in the hang of things again.

Some players are great at scoring and skating forward but have issues with backwards crossunders. Balance everything and you will be fine

Note: Especially the backwards crossunders part. I'm not great and when I defend our zone it can be difficult. Players will just move side to side on you. Overall you don't need to be doing backwards crossunders across the ice. If there is a two on one always go for the opposite player who does not have the puck. The goalie can take one man but if it's cross-crease he'll definitley chirp you.

Focus on backwards crossunders and getting the most out of your stride. These tend to be the things you forget when not playing in a long time.

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12-26-2012, 04:42 PM
  #32
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Funny re: loose skates:

One of the mods here told me in high school they had to take their laces out in practice. He had ridiculous edge control. My uncle yesterday (who played juniors) told me he barely even tightens his skates. Again, ridiculous edge control.

Anyways I'll bow out and just listen to Ponder. Excellent stuff. I don't realize half the stuff I do on the ice as I'm such an amateur skater.

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12-26-2012, 05:14 PM
  #33
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I have practice tonight, looking forward to trying the suggestions. I do think I pronate both feet, however, which is a new realization for me. I'm going to wear sleeve-style ankle braces on both feet to see if that helps, and then widen my hollow to 5/8"s this weekend. My ankles appear to turn in even on a straight glide, but not nearly as bad as an attempt at stopping. So hopefully keeping my ankles stiffer/giving more arch support with the superfeet insoles I bought will help.

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12-26-2012, 05:57 PM
  #34
AIREAYE
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Try Superfeet Yellow for pronation problems.

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12-27-2012, 08:45 AM
  #35
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Well the good news is, with yellow superfeet in my skates, slipon style compression wraps on both ankles, and some tape around both ankles, my feet are *much* straighter, I could tell the difference right away. In hindsight I was stupid for not thinking of this before, as 18 years of inline skating --> a lot of twisted/sprained ankles, and so I'm pretty sure both ankles are super wobbly and loose. I mean, I once horrifically rolled my ankle playing intramural *dodgeball* in college. So, yeah.

Bad news-still can't stop properly. BUT I think it's more mental now than mechanical. Coach recommended I dumb it back down to a snowplow, but when I turn my lead foot in, it simply starts going in that direction/there's no stopping motion. Am I not leaning on the correct part of the foot?

But I'm still hopeful now that I've got this portion sorted out. It's funny, I can skate as fast if not faster, and turn on a dime at medium speed to start a breakout play, but if I'm going top speed, at some point crash into the boards, much to the delight/chagrin of my teammates.

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12-27-2012, 11:46 AM
  #36
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I envision my ankles in line with my legs. When I stop, it's like I'm pushing against the ice like a squat, bend my knees (and ankles forward) to sit into the stop, then "jump" against the ice out to move the other direction (or just stand up if I don't need to move).

See this picture, the two skates are roughly the same angle. You are on your outside edge of your inside foot and inside edge of the outside foot:



When you are stopping, the whole body is (roughly) in line and leaning at the same angle. Ankles are in line with the shins which are in line with the thighs which are close to in line with the torso:



There's obviously exceptions especially when puck handling but that's how I would learn to keep it simple.

One idea I have is to stand on one leg and try to balance as long as possible, then switch. It's easier if you push against the ice than try to balance on top of it. If your ankle is wobbly, it's got to be a bad fit on the skate. You should be pushing flat against the boot with the heels, toes, outside, and inside of the foot.

Actually, try standing on one leg just in bare feet or shoes. It's easier to keep the foot flat on the ground than to try and balance on either the outside or inside of the foot. More stability. Same thing when skating.

Maybe that's where the arch support comes in, to make sure you are able to push against the whole boot rather than just pushing with the outside or inside of the skate.

And when you're standing on one foot, notice how much easier it is when you put your weight centered over the foot rather than off to one side or the other.

I dunno, just some ideas to try to help with the edges.

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12-27-2012, 11:51 AM
  #37
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Thanks for the tips. It really isn't the skate, all this rigamarole has helped me notice I pronote/have wobbly ankles in bare feet and shoes as well. The boot supports my ankle/bends with it, but last night's measures helped me feel a difference where my ankles were held more stiffly. I could really notice this when standing on the flat part of my blades, it was much easier to do so.

The frustrating thing is I feel like I have the prerequisite skills to stop, but still can't do it. Re: your suggestions, I can easily stand balanced on one skate for over a minute, and skate on one blade a full length of the ice.

Do you guys make house calls?

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12-27-2012, 12:02 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebolav View Post
Well the good news is, with yellow superfeet in my skates, slipon style compression wraps on both ankles, and some tape around both ankles, my feet are *much* straighter, I could tell the difference right away. In hindsight I was stupid for not thinking of this before, as 18 years of inline skating --> a lot of twisted/sprained ankles, and so I'm pretty sure both ankles are super wobbly and loose. I mean, I once horrifically rolled my ankle playing intramural *dodgeball* in college. So, yeah.

Bad news-still can't stop properly. BUT I think it's more mental now than mechanical. Coach recommended I dumb it back down to a snowplow, but when I turn my lead foot in, it simply starts going in that direction/there's no stopping motion. Am I not leaning on the correct part of the foot?

But I'm still hopeful now that I've got this portion sorted out. It's funny, I can skate as fast if not faster, and turn on a dime at medium speed to start a breakout play, but if I'm going top speed, at some point crash into the boards, much to the delight/chagrin of my teammates.
Yet people say I have no idea what i'm talking about on these boards.

Anyways, for stopping you want to start off with a slight skid on the ice. Turn your leg like you are stopping with the snowplow and skid across the ice for several seconds, then slightly push at the end. Should hear kind of like "cussshhhh" noise. A good interval between the skid and the push is about 3/4 seconds.

Once you improve with this, decrease the seconds between the skid and the "cussshhhh" to about 2.

After you get better at this, you can start practicing an actual hockey stop. This just gets the mechanics down as in what it sounds like and how to push and not dig into the ice. I say slightly since if you do it hard when you're learning you'll probably twist your ankle

I took skating lessons for several years, this is how I learned and have got many people to do the same. Once you are comfortable with this you can start doing hockey stops. I recommend practicing on the hash marks on the faceoff circle for both. While many players don't stop on a dime during a hockey game, this helps keep your control.

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01-02-2013, 03:25 PM
  #39
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Over the weekend I got my hollow changed from 1/2" to 3/4", haven't had a chance to skate since last Wed, so we'll see how tonight goes!

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01-03-2013, 08:50 AM
  #40
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good news-3/4" I can *really* tell the difference. While standing, I can easily 'make snow' with both feet, including at the same time pushing outward into a 1/2 splits position.

bad news-that's about it. I lost some edge control but could tell the difference in gliding when I caught up to someone on an odd man rush. When snowplowing with both feet, are you actively pushing your feet outward as you turn the toes in? That's what I was doing, but I feel like I would have to end up stopping relatively quickly or else my legs would end up too far apart/I really would do the splits (not literally).

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01-03-2013, 12:52 PM
  #41
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I found the one foot stop drill as well as the one foot inside edge outside edge drills work well to build ankle strength and also to hone your skating ability using your edges. They force you to focus on being on the correct edge or else you will wobble/ eventually fall. Both can be found on youtube (sorry, can't embed youtube at work.)

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01-03-2013, 01:29 PM
  #42
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Bruins-thanks for the suggestion, I will check those out after work tonight. I can feel the wider hollow/am less 'bitey' while trying to stop, so I think it's just a matter of form/technique at this point...

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01-07-2013, 08:45 AM
  #43
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Woot! I can snowplow two footed!!!

Key is thinking to keep my ankles straight as I start the motion. My ankles want to naturally lean in (vestigal inline behavior), and so as long as I keep them straight I'm fine. I don't think it's lack of ankle support in the skaet, because short of a cast, no skate is going to prevent me from leaning my ankles in if I want them to.

Now moving on to the hockey stop-any suggestions to transfer snowplow over?

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01-10-2013, 08:42 AM
  #44
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One footed fast snowplow now, woot! Getting better

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01-31-2013, 08:40 AM
  #45
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First officiated game last night, 2 SOG, 1 picture perfect pass between defenders legs-->goal. I just can't turn quickly when I'm going fast, I have to make these wide circles at times. But switching to waxed laces=tighter skates=easier one footed snowplow.

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01-31-2013, 01:03 PM
  #46
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Nice. the thing that really helped me the most going from inline to ice and learning to stop is to get a deep knee bend. Do this in your snow plowing but only focus on the front foot as the plow.. not both. Then once you get comfortable with that, work on the outside edge of the trailing foot.

For turning tighter, it helps to get a deep bend and lean forward INTO your turn. If you don't have the puck, try pointing the toe of your stick to where you want to go. Don't look at it or your feet. Just point and go. It's a simple thing but really helped me trust my edges.

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01-31-2013, 02:32 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebolav View Post
Over the weekend I got my hollow changed from 1/2" to 3/4", haven't had a chance to skate since last Wed, so we'll see how tonight goes!
Might have been a better idea to try 5/8 first. 1/2 to 3/4 is a significant change. I'm going to be switching to 5/8 soon as I just recently switched to defence.

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03-04-2013, 12:35 PM
  #48
Ebolav
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Nice. the thing that really helped me the most going from inline to ice and learning to stop is to get a deep knee bend. Do this in your snow plowing but only focus on the front foot as the plow.. not both. Then once you get comfortable with that, work on the outside edge of the trailing foot.

For turning tighter, it helps to get a deep bend and lean forward INTO your turn. If you don't have the puck, try pointing the toe of your stick to where you want to go. Don't look at it or your feet. Just point and go. It's a simple thing but really helped me trust my edges.
Good suggestions, thanks! I've played 4 games with the team, have 1 g, 1 a, 3 SOG. Can quickly one footed snowplow, but can still 'outskate' my stopping in terms of speed, I'm probably the 2nd fastest skater in our scrubby league. But I can snowplow at like 65% of top speed, after that I have to slow down/turn first.

The knee bend is crucial, we hired a coach who pointed out I play too upright most of the time, which I have now figured out is due to low back issues. When I'm low/in deep knee bend mode, I can stop/turn much better, but the muscles on my left side about 3-3 1/2" above pants waistline just start aching. Might look into a back brace, it's the same reason/area of my back that prevents me from sleeping on my right side.

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03-04-2013, 12:55 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebolav View Post
Good suggestions, thanks! I've played 4 games with the team, have 1 g, 1 a, 3 SOG. Can quickly one footed snowplow, but can still 'outskate' my stopping in terms of speed, I'm probably the 2nd fastest skater in our scrubby league. But I can snowplow at like 65% of top speed, after that I have to slow down/turn first.

The knee bend is crucial, we hired a coach who pointed out I play too upright most of the time, which I have now figured out is due to low back issues. When I'm low/in deep knee bend mode, I can stop/turn much better, but the muscles on my left side about 3-3 1/2" above pants waistline just start aching. Might look into a back brace, it's the same reason/area of my back that prevents me from sleeping on my right side.
I've got back issues as well. Try strengthening your core. Pushups, crunches, etc. I also keep my shifts short. Once I get fatigued, my back hurts which results in me being more upright.

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