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Old
03-04-2013, 11:23 AM
  #101
dave babych returns
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Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
Gillis traded away developed prospects just when they were breaking into the league. That is the issue with him.
So in other words you have no leg to stand on in arguing with my original comments?

Yes Mike Gillis traded away Michael Grabner, the trouble is Grabner had not cemented a spot in the league and was eligible for waivers.

Obviously he had upside and we could certainly use a player with Grabner's skill set who has realized his potential but that was a long shot here.

At the end of the day you have a win now team moving a prospect for whom the clock is ticking in exchange for (what should have been) a top four defenseman, that's a deal you make when you are a contender.

Nobody is going to argue that the Canucks won the Keith Ballard trade, but the timing was right for a move of that nature.

(As for Hodgson/Kassian, I'm not going to get into it much but Hodgson was traded for another high end young player so I don't really understand how you can make a "Gillis shouldn't trade young players" argument about that one.)

Quote:
Nonis didn't do that nor would he.
It's what cost him his job if you hadn't noticed. Dave Nonis built a one line team that won its division and a playoff round and then did absolutely nothing to address the reasons why it could not get further.

I guess he deserves credit for refusing to make a bad deal out of desperation (in his last season anyway, the way he pissed away high draft picks prior to that is pretty remarkable) but suffice to say he couldn't improve his team and it cost him his job.

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03-04-2013, 11:25 AM
  #102
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Burrows for 3.6
I'm talking real alternatives not NHL 13 fantasy.

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03-04-2013, 11:27 AM
  #103
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I just want to point out that Isles fans are starting to get annoyed by Grabner. "All he does is breakaways."

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03-04-2013, 11:50 AM
  #104
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[QUOTE=dave babych returns;60936763]
Quote:
So in other words you have no leg to stand on in arguing with my original comments?
No, I am just shortning things up before I get a trolling penalty.

Quote:
It's what cost him his job if you hadn't noticed. Dave Nonis built a one line team that won its division and a playoff round and then did absolutely nothing to address the reasons why it could not get further.

I guess he deserves credit for refusing to make a bad deal out of desperation (in his last season anyway, the way he pissed away high draft picks prior to that is pretty remarkable) but suffice to say he couldn't improve his team and it cost him his job.
I don't think you are aware of the fact that Nonis was waiting to get out from under some old contracts (Naslund, Morrison) in the 2 years before he got fired. The year Nonis got fired was the year that he was waiting for to make big moves. Mike Gillis stepped in when the waiting was over. That is why it appears that Gillis is a flashier GM but it was more with what he had to work with.

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Old
03-04-2013, 11:54 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
I don't think you are aware of the fact that Nonis was waiting to get out from under some old contracts (Naslund, Morrison) in the 2 years before he got fired
Nonis was the guy that gave Naslund that so-called "old contract" the year before.

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03-04-2013, 12:08 PM
  #106
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He got a hatrick here. He has more raw talent then Raymond or Hansen. They would find a role for him.


Evidently that was a mistake. I live in Edmonton and for some reason, even the local Oil guy knew that we gave up quite a bit.

Are you sure that stuff was crossing their desks at the time ?

I remember after the trade, the Grabner fans (me) where point counting right away. Its took a lot less then 30 games.


None of that matters anymore because he proved himself. If Florida had the brains to keep him, he would be getting a hell of a lot more points then he is now. He would fit that team like a glove.

I work with an Islanders fan and he just loves Grabner. He is fun to watch.
That is actually not true. I just went back and looked at the NHL game logs from the 10-11 season. After 30 games Grabner had 11 points, after 36 he had 12. On his 37th game he started a 6 game point streak which was the beginning of his tear that lasted the rest of the year. You might be referring to the fact that he scored 5 points in 4 games in his 16th-19th games that year, but before that he went pointless for 7 games, and afterwards he was pointless in 6 games. As the facts I just presented shows, it did in fact take him more than 30 games to start producing regularly.

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03-04-2013, 12:25 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
I don't think you are aware of the fact that Nonis was waiting to get out from under some old contracts (Naslund, Morrison) in the 2 years before he got fired.
I am perfectly aware of the situation Dave Nonis put himself into (who signed Markus and Brendan to those deals again?)

Quote:
The year Nonis got fired was the year that he was waiting for to make big moves.
How did they finish that year again? I seem to recall they dropped 17 points in the standings and 8 spots in Western Conference playoff seeding.

The moral of the story is that you don't sit on your hands watching your team struggle to cope with the shortcomings everyone saw last year and you did nothing to address.

Nonis got caught with his pants down when his team stopped winning (winning they had been doing in spite of the holes he left in the roster), pure and simple.

Quote:
Mike Gillis stepped in when the waiting was over. That is why it appears that Gillis is a flashier GM but it was more with what he had to work with.
Yeah this might have held water in Gillis' first couple of seasons but the Canucks have continued to build on their success (until this past year) since then.

Maybe Dave Nonis could have done as well as (or even better than) Mike Gillis with all that cap space available in 2008, but the point is that he couldn't even keep his job long enough for us to find out.

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03-04-2013, 12:38 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by The Classless One View Post
Grabner wasn't anything special
Better than what a lot of what the Canucks currently have.
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Originally Posted by The Classless One View Post
he would've been in the doghouse for the majority of his career.
Poor asset management. Is that the expectation for the Canucks now? It's irrelevant that FLA waived him and TOR passed on him. They are hardly the models to emulate.

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03-04-2013, 12:40 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by dave babych returns View Post
The moral of the story is that you don't sit on your hands watching your team struggle to cope with the shortcomings everyone saw last year and you did nothing to address.
Are you listening, Mike Gillis?

/looks at the two goalies he signed for starter money.

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03-04-2013, 12:40 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Fat Tony View Post
Poor asset management. Is that the expectation for the Canucks now? It's irrelevant that FLA waived him and TOR passed on him. They are hardly the models to emulate.
I don't share that opinion. Those teams were attempting to make the playoffs (in the case of one, failing badly but still they were making that attempt). Islanders had zero intentions of making the playoffs given their salary structure and management. They could afford to take a flyer on a player. It worked out for them - to a point (let's not talk like he's an allstar & getting points on a lottery pick team hardly means much).


Last edited by Barney Gumble: 03-04-2013 at 12:46 PM.
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03-04-2013, 12:57 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
He got a hatrick here. He has more raw talent then Raymond or Hansen. They would find a role for him.


Evidently that was a mistake. I live in Edmonton and for some reason, even the local Oil guy knew that we gave up quite a bit.

Are you sure that stuff was crossing their desks at the time ?

I remember after the trade, the Grabner fans (me) where point counting right away. Its took a lot less then 30 games.


None of that matters anymore because he proved himself. If Florida had the brains to keep him, he would be getting a hell of a lot more points then he is now. He would fit that team like a glove.

I work with an Islanders fan and he just loves Grabner. He is fun to watch.
I was one of Grabner's biggest fans. Absolutely loved the kid's speed and envisioned an explosive dynamo line of him, Mayray and Kesler. Unfortunately, Grabner's defensive game is practically nonexistent, has no physicality to speak - less than even Raymond - and his work ethic bordered on Kovalev levels. Apparently, he is turning his game around in Long Island but this is three years after the fact.

Elite teams do not wait until a player can get his act together when they have replacements fighting for a spot. Raymond proved the better player at the time and would retain that title today had injuries not slowed his career. Had we been able to waive him to the AHL for another season, then we would have done so but that option had passed. The simple fact is it took several years for Grabner to realize he had best adjust his game should he have any aspirations of playing meaningful minutes in the NHL.

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03-04-2013, 01:01 PM
  #112
Barney Gumble
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
[Raymond proved the better player at the time and would retain that title today had injuries not slowed his career.
Interestingly enough, he has the same number of points this season as Grabner right now at lower cap hit.

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03-04-2013, 01:14 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Fat Tony View Post
Are you listening, Mike Gillis?

/looks at the two goalies he signed for starter money.
And just like I said, as soon as the move (or in Nonis' cast the inactivity) comes back to bite you the knives will come out.

In this case, the time for Mike Gillis to worry about his two well paid goaltenders is 2013-14.

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03-04-2013, 03:39 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
I don't share that opinion. Those teams were attempting to make the playoffs (in the case of one, failing badly but still they were making that attempt). Islanders had zero intentions of making the playoffs given their salary structure and management. They could afford to take a flyer on a player. It worked out for them - to a point (let's not talk like he's an allstar & getting points on a lottery pick team hardly means much).
Well, rookie All-Star.

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03-04-2013, 03:41 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Interestingly enough, he has the same number of points this season as Grabner right now at lower cap hit.
The cutdown arbitration helped a little in that respect.

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03-04-2013, 03:45 PM
  #116
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I just want to point out that Isles fans are starting to get annoyed by Grabner. "All he does is breakaways."
I wish we had a player that only did breakaways. It's not Grabner's fault that he is so fast that every time he gets ahold of the puck that it ends up being a breakaway. He's just too fast.

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03-04-2013, 03:47 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Fat Tony View Post
The cutdown arbitration helped a little in that respect.
Much like being waived by a medicore team like the Panthers and claimed by a perpetual lottery team like the Islanders woke some guy up to the realization that maybe he couldn't get by with pure talent alone (I mean, the Islanders are the last stop before AHLs-ville or Europe) right?

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03-04-2013, 03:50 PM
  #118
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At the end of the day the GM's job is to build a team that is good enough and deep enough to compete for the cup. Gillis has done that and built a team that was good enough to get to game 7 of the SCF one year. It's now up to the players to show that his faith in them is justified.

I'd say overall that he's one of the better GM's in the league. He's made mistakes but that's the nature of the game: no one can be perfect. Most of his mistakes have been fairly minor and he's corrected them when he sees they aren't working. Can't ask for much more than that. There's probably only two or three other GM's that I'd consider taking over him. We're lucky to have him.

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03-04-2013, 03:55 PM
  #119
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I just want to point out that Isles fans are starting to get annoyed by Grabner. "All he does is breakaways."

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03-04-2013, 04:07 PM
  #120
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Who did we have to give up for Booth? Who?
It's not so much the "who" as the "what" that hurts the team.

The "what" being 4.2 million of untradable salary cap space.

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03-04-2013, 04:10 PM
  #121
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It's not so much the "who" as the "what" that hurts the team.

The "what" being 4.2 million of untradable salary cap space.
Cap space is not going to help us win games on its own. Right now this team has more than enough cap space and they will have even more when we hit the trade deadline. Claiming that Booth's cap hit is somehow an issue is just ridiculous. The absolute worst-case scenario is that you waive him and somebody claims him, because really there are too many desperate teams in the league not to claim a guy that consistently hits 20 goals.

But that's all just hypotheticals, I happen to think that Booth is not a problem at all and should be retained.

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03-04-2013, 04:16 PM
  #122
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I don't even remember Grabner being a Canuck, I was reminded in NHL12 while looking at potential trades.

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03-04-2013, 04:36 PM
  #123
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I don't even remember Grabner being a Canuck, I was reminded in NHL12 while looking at potential trades.
Oh, I loved him in NHL 11-12. He was insanely overrated in the potential category and after a few seasons, he and Raymond would blow teams away. I think I had one of them at 50 goals or on pace for it.

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03-04-2013, 04:47 PM
  #124
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What is wrong with our managment team?

First Hodgson wants a trade, then Luongo and maybe now Ballard?

AV needs to go now.

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03-04-2013, 04:48 PM
  #125
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Don't think it's management, per se. It's coaching.

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