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Old
03-04-2013, 01:12 PM
  #126
massivegoonery
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BronYrAur View Post
Most of the difference b/w Toews & Kane's point totals is on PP. I don't put much stock into that to be honest.

Kane is far, far worse in his own zone and that hasn't changed. But of course, whenever he puts up points nobody cares that he doesn't play much defense.

Oh, not to mention the 60% faceoff percentage that Toews has. That makes up for a lot of the difference in scoring right there.
This has to be a joke post, right?

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03-04-2013, 01:23 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by BronYrAur View Post
Most of the difference b/w Toews & Kane's point totals is on PP. I don't put much stock into that to be honest.

Kane is far, far worse in his own zone and that hasn't changed. But of course, whenever he puts up points nobody cares that he doesn't play much defense.

Oh, not to mention the 60% faceoff percentage that Toews has. That makes up for a lot of the difference in scoring right there.
this entire post is ridiculous.

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03-04-2013, 01:26 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Toews is as valuable as Kane, neither is more important than the other.
perhaps but this year kane has been the more effective player on the team.

last year i would have said it was toews.

they are both important players but this year kane is having the better year.

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03-04-2013, 01:27 PM
  #129
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Faceoffs >> hockey

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Old
03-04-2013, 01:42 PM
  #130
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faceoffs are the foundation on which hockey is built. everything else are secondary, actually, tertiary concerns.

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03-04-2013, 01:47 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by UsernameWasTaken View Post
this entire post is ridiculous.
Explain?

I have explained my argument. Everyone else just says...ZOMG Kaner!1

Yeah he's great passer, scorer....but Toews has always been the better player. Suddenly Kane has more points through 22 games and people want to say he's MVP. Fine, but that's a ridiculously small sample to judge players on.

Just like when people wanted to trade Kane last year when he had a "down" year. Well, he was something like top 15-20 in the NHL in even-strength points...

Kane is simply not a two-way player and he doesn't take faceoffs. Those are two very large elements of the game that Toews excels in.

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03-04-2013, 01:51 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BronYrAur View Post
Explain?

I have explained my argument. Everyone else just says...ZOMG Kaner!1

Yeah he's great passer, scorer....but Toews has always been the better player. Suddenly Kane has more points through 22 games and people want to say he's MVP. Fine, but that's a ridiculously small sample to judge players on.

Just like when people wanted to trade Kane last year when he had a "down" year. Well, he was something like top 15-20 in the NHL in even-strength points...

Kane is simply not a two-way player and he doesn't take faceoffs. Those are two very large elements of the game that Toews excels in.
You're judging Toews on the same amount of games for this season, no?

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03-04-2013, 02:00 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BronYrAur View Post
Explain?

I have explained my argument. Everyone else just says...ZOMG Kaner!1

Yeah he's great passer, scorer....but Toews has always been the better player. Suddenly Kane has more points through 22 games and people want to say he's MVP. Fine, but that's a ridiculously small sample to judge players on.

Just like when people wanted to trade Kane last year when he had a "down" year. Well, he was something like top 15-20 in the NHL in even-strength points...

Kane is simply not a two-way player and he doesn't take faceoffs. Those are two very large elements of the game that Toews excels in.
Toews is a better two way player. Kane is easily more offensively gifted than Toews is. He has been far more effective offensively than Toews has and has put up better numbers (even including his off year last year).

Kane isn't as good defensively as Toews is...but he's no where near as bad as the haters like to claim.

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03-04-2013, 02:02 PM
  #134
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Faceoffs!!!

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Old
03-04-2013, 02:06 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Blue Liner View Post
You're judging Toews on the same amount of games for this season, no?
But this season should not be the only one we use to inform our view of players. It's not like we should act like Toews & Kane are totally different players this year. Kane does look a little bit better than he has in the past, more dangerous offensively perhaps. But 22 games is too few to really say whether he has improved offensively. The fact that he HAS produced more scoring this year...that is important, but whether that is due to his skill improving or just random variation is what I'm getting at.

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03-04-2013, 02:07 PM
  #136
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Forgot to give Roszival his props, he had a great game. He's gotta be the best, or at least one of the best, number six d-men in the league. Definitely a phenomenal third pairing.

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03-04-2013, 02:09 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BronYrAur View Post
But this season should not be the only one we use to inform our view of players. It's not like we should act like Toews & Kane are totally different players this year. Kane does look a little bit better than he has in the past, more dangerous offensively perhaps. But 22 games is too few to really say whether he has improved offensively. The fact that he HAS produced more scoring this year...that is important, but whether that is due to his skill improving or just random variation is what I'm getting at.
When talking about an MVP/MVP award as is what started this topic, it's for that season and that season only. I'm not arguing one way or the other, but arguments being made for an MVP this season regards accomplishments and play for this season only.

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03-04-2013, 02:09 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Blue Liner View Post
Forgot to give Roszival his props, he had a great game. He's gotta be the best, or at least one of the best, number six d-men in the league. Definitely a phenomenal third pairing.
I really love the third pairing this year. For that matter I love the whole D; I think it has to be up in the top 5 deepest D-corps in the league.

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03-04-2013, 02:09 PM
  #139
Chris Hansen
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If we're judging MVP for this season, then past years are irrelevant.

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03-04-2013, 02:11 PM
  #140
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with kane, people shouldn't use last year as his standard - last year was clearly an off year and you could see the lingering effects of his wrist surgery. i think this year is more representative of his skill level.

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03-04-2013, 02:12 PM
  #141
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this year, Kane is our outstanding player and MVP so far

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03-04-2013, 02:13 PM
  #142
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Yeah, I would give it to Kane at this point.

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03-04-2013, 02:14 PM
  #143
BronYrAur
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
If we're judging MVP for this season, then past years are irrelevant.
Ok, but all I'm saying is that....it's likely that as the season progresses, Kane's scoring regresses toward the mean of his career scoring rate of 0.94ppg & Toews to his career rate of 0.89ppg. Because we simply do not have enough data to say that Kane has certainly improved to becoming 1+ PPG player & one of best scorers in the NHL. On the other hand, faceoff% normalizes much quicker and it's easy to say that Toews' 60% FO rate is almost entirely skill.

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03-04-2013, 02:16 PM
  #144
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Kane is still young. It isn't unreasonable to suggest he's making a leap in scoring output this season that many of us were expecting he'd make following the 88-point campaign in 09/10.

Players improve. Especially when they're young.

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03-04-2013, 02:17 PM
  #145
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There is still a second half and it's not impossible that Toews or Hossa go into beast mode and pass him. I agree Kane would need to maintain this pace to lock up the Hart. I don't see anything slowing him down though. The Hart should come from the Hawks though. The only other guy I see out there really carrying his team to wins all year is Rinne.

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03-04-2013, 02:30 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
Kane is still young. It isn't unreasonable to suggest he's making a leap in scoring output this season that many of us were expecting he'd make following the 88-point campaign in 09/10.

Players improve. Especially when they're young.
Of course not.

It is unreasonable to definitely say he has improved, this early. That's all I'm saying.

His even-strength PPG last year was 0.66. He was tied for 12th in the NHL (with Henrik & Hossa) in even-strength points last year. So his "down year" was essentially tied entirely to the Hawks' ****** power play. Not so "down" after all.

His even-strength PPG this year is up to 0.77. Certainly a significant improvement, but whether it is luck or a step up in talent/skill, it's far too early to tell.

Last year, Toews even-strength PPG was 0.71 and would have put him in 5th place had he played the full season. And he won 60% of his faceoffs. And he plays on PK, which Kane does not.

To me, this is kind of like Malkin vs. Crosby. Yes, if Malkin scores more than Crosby over a season he deserves the award. But who is really the more valuable player to that team. It's always Crosby when he is healthy.

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03-04-2013, 02:31 PM
  #147
Chris Hansen
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Well, alright, but if we're judging the MVP of the Hawks this season to date, the answer is Kane and there's really no argument otherwise. I was under the impression you don't think that's true. Admittedly I haven't really read through this thread very carefully, so I could be wrong on that.

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03-04-2013, 02:37 PM
  #148
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Well, alright, but if we're judging the MVP of the Hawks this season to date, the answer is Kane and there's really no argument otherwise. I was under the impression you don't think that's true. Admittedly I haven't really read through this thread very carefully, so I could be wrong on that.
I don't necessarily think that points is a good way to judge how valuable a player is over 22 games. It's ridiculous to think that we can look at Kane's point total & Toews' and make judgment based on that. Too much variability in looking at points over so few games. At least look at even-strength points, where they are much closer (17 to 14). Kane still with the edge. But you're still ignoring defense/PK/faceoffs.

Toews is the only above-average player taking regular faceoffs on this team. That is incredibly important. A defensive zone draw won can directly prevent the opposing team a scoring opportunity and an offensive zone draw can directly lead to scoring chance. If Toews wins a draw and the Hawks score on a tip or rebound goal or something....who was really more "valuable" in creating that goal? The guy who picked up the garbage goal or deflected the puck? Or the guy who won the draw?

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03-04-2013, 02:45 PM
  #149
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with kane, people shouldn't use last year as his standard - last year was clearly an off year and you could see the lingering effects of his wrist surgery. i think this year is more representative of his skill level.
It's like night and day. Kane's shot is much quicker this year, his goal yesterday being a good example.

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03-04-2013, 02:52 PM
  #150
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Yeah, all he would do is dangle last year, wouldn't put any torque into his shots. The wrist was most definitely a major factor last year.

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