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David Desharnais Discussion Part II: The 'Stay on your Feet' Edition

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Old
03-04-2013, 01:40 PM
  #26
Coldplay
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Davey: they see me rollin', they hatin'...

Little guy keeps proving everyone wrong. I think Max said that's what keeps him going, to show everyone that he's legitimate, and to shut the haters up.

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03-04-2013, 01:57 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexdaman View Post
DD and Patch are the biggest reason why the team is doing so good right now.

Galchenyuk still has a lot to learn, normal when you come out of the OHL where you can do all the tricks you want and nobody can stop you. But he is learning how important positioning and physical play really is and that what's important is not the play you do but how fast can you do it.

For the time being DD shows his true leadership and remains our #1 C.
Next year we might have a situation where Galchenyuk centers our talent line (UFA openings? Collberg?), DD makes the hardworking offensively productive line and Plekanec centers a consistent reliable trio that will make up good denfensive presences and some good productive nights.

The good thing is that when a line is struggling during a game there's always another trio that picks up the pace and makes up for the other.
If we could sign a great Top-6 winger (think Perry), we could have something special.

Scoring line#1
Patch-DD-Gally

Scoring line#2
Eller-Galchenyuk-Perry

Two way checking line
Bourque-Plekanec-Gionta

Crash&Bang
Prust-Dumont-White

That would be unreal depth.

Trade Moen for a pick and keep Armstrong around as a spare forward for ~$1M.

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Old
03-04-2013, 02:01 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
If we could sign a great Top-6 winger (think Perry), we could have something special.

Scoring line#1
Patch-DD-Gally

Scoring line#2
Eller-Galchenyuk-Perry

Two way checking line
Bourque-Plekanec-Gionta

Crash&Bang
Prust-Dumont-White

That would be unreal depth.

Trade Moen for a pick and keep Armstrong around as a spare forward for ~$1M.
I'd rather keep Moen as the spare and let Armstrong walk - Moen, despite his faults, is a better hockey player than Colby "hands of steel" Armstrong all-around.

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03-04-2013, 02:10 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
You are the ONLY person to post something negative in here so far, and twice.

You seem to be looking for negativity.
Agreed. Let's move on here. People will disagree but as long as they have logic behind it, I'm okay with it. Disagreeing for sake of it and saying "you can't win with small guys" annoys me.

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03-04-2013, 02:12 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Coldplay View Post
I'd rather keep Moen as the spare and let Armstrong walk - Moen, despite his faults, is a better hockey player than Colby "hands of steel" Armstrong all-around.
I'd keep Moen too except that we could save $1M for a guy who would be out 13th forward.

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Old
03-04-2013, 02:31 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Agreed. Let's move on here. People will disagree but as long as they have logic behind it, I'm okay with it. Disagreeing for sake of it and saying "you can't win with small guys" annoys me.
You can only win with small guys....that fight.

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03-04-2013, 04:46 PM
  #32
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Although everybody thinks he hot stuff now and guys like me will shut up cause DD played well and his line create some offensive.....well haters will shut up....

But i ain't no haters....cause i don't hate just for the fun of it or to troll poeple out. I stand by 100% what i've said in the past. DD got huge upside to his offensive game but also huge downside to his defensive game and although he is asset for his offensive games......still he remains a one dimensionnal players to me.

Don't get me wrong, i'm truly happy with what's happening this season with the Habs and what's happening right now with this line.

But i'm a hater......I hate things as you all do...but i truly hate the fact that some of you keep overrated him.

Just right now...DD our 1st center....well, he'll be our first center the day he face up the best offensive line and be able to keep them from producing while producing himself. But that's Plekanec job, so he is in mymmind still the first center

I'll give credit to DD anyway, in the last couple of games he's been really good.....but not as good as Pacioretty (First star in the NHL this week) and not as good as Gallagher.....and poeple who still think he is the reason for the succes of those 2 guys are way wrong.

That line is working right now...and that's all it matters in the end.

But the question you should all ask yourself is the following: How comes this line start to work exactly at the same time Galchenyuk was taking out of the center position and put on wing with Eller (and his production start to slow down)?

Can't sheltered two lines at the same time........

But i know......offensive and scoresheet is everything right?

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03-04-2013, 07:08 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
Although everybody thinks he hot stuff now and guys like me will shut up cause DD played well and his line create some offensive.....well haters will shut up....

But i ain't no haters....cause i don't hate just for the fun of it or to troll poeple out. I stand by 100% what i've said in the past. DD got huge upside to his offensive game but also huge downside to his defensive game and although he is asset for his offensive games......still he remains a one dimensionnal players to me.

Don't get me wrong, i'm truly happy with what's happening this season with the Habs and what's happening right now with this line.

But i'm a hater......I hate things as you all do...but i truly hate the fact that some of you keep overrated him.

Just right now...DD our 1st center....well, he'll be our first center the day he face up the best offensive line and be able to keep them from producing while producing himself. But that's Plekanec job, so he is in mymmind still the first center

I'll give credit to DD anyway, in the last couple of games he's been really good.....but not as good as Pacioretty (First star in the NHL this week) and not as good as Gallagher.....and poeple who still think he is the reason for the succes of those 2 guys are way wrong.

That line is working right now...and that's all it matters in the end.

But the question you should all ask yourself is the following: How comes this line start to work exactly at the same time Galchenyuk was taking out of the center position and put on wing with Eller (and his production start to slow down)?

Can't sheltered two lines at the same time........

But i know......offensive and scoresheet is everything right?
Yes, we get it. You don't like Desharnais. When after a game like he had last night, you come in and still discredit him, you're not going to get a lot of people taking your opinion seriously.

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03-04-2013, 07:26 PM
  #34
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Good on DD. He had a rough start. But he's coming back into his old rhythm. It may be due to Patches' reemergence and Gallaguerre's overall style. Either way, glad he's producing again.

No matter what, I honestly believe DD's size will always be a question and an issue. Let's hope he uses that as motivation and fuel to keep on playing as good as he can.

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03-04-2013, 07:56 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Same.

A LOT of centers would look really good with Pacioretty and Gallagher as their wingers, but DD still has made it work as a line, so props to him.
yes props to him but we are going nowhere with him on our top 6 come playoff time .

Cmon folks , we have waited 20 years for a legit #1 franchise centre , Galchenyuk is for real and

come next year , he is ready to assume the #1 mantle .

DD has a place in this league , but please MB don't lock up this one dimensional player to a long term deal . Slot # 27 with Max next year and let him develop into the star we all know he can be .

Pleks is the perfect #2 who plays both ends of the rink , and Eller can handle the checking role

Like I said before no cup contending team ever won with a DD as a #1 centre and never will

we will miss nothing if he gets traded or leaves in the summer , just as Jersey lost nothing with

Parise gone and countless players every year , other players will pick up the slack due to more playing time

the time is next year to make our franchise centre the #1 we have been craving

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03-04-2013, 08:06 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
Although everybody thinks he hot stuff now and guys like me will shut up cause DD played well and his line create some offensive.....well haters will shut up....

But i ain't no haters....cause i don't hate just for the fun of it or to troll poeple out. I stand by 100% what i've said in the past. DD got huge upside to his offensive game but also huge downside to his defensive game and although he is asset for his offensive games......still he remains a one dimensionnal players to me.

Don't get me wrong, i'm truly happy with what's happening this season with the Habs and what's happening right now with this line.

But i'm a hater......I hate things as you all do...but i truly hate the fact that some of you keep overrated him.

Just right now...DD our 1st center....well, he'll be our first center the day he face up the best offensive line and be able to keep them from producing while producing himself. But that's Plekanec job, so he is in mymmind still the first center

I'll give credit to DD anyway, in the last couple of games he's been really good.....but not as good as Pacioretty (First star in the NHL this week) and not as good as Gallagher.....and poeple who still think he is the reason for the succes of those 2 guys are way wrong.

That line is working right now...and that's all it matters in the end.

But the question you should all ask yourself is the following: How comes this line start to work exactly at the same time Galchenyuk was taking out of the center position and put on wing with Eller (and his production start to slow down)?

Can't sheltered two lines at the same time........

But i know......offensive and scoresheet is everything right?
Fair and reasonable post. Much that I agree with.

I'd say that Desharnais ought to be afforded the same courtesy we give most young players who are still new to the NHL though, in regards to flaws in their games. Desharnais has his flaws, which you've rightly noted, but I'd argue that he's intelligent on ice, hard working, and that those flaws will be shored up before long--if not turned into strengths. He has the ability to be good defensively, in my mind: he's crafty with the puck, good at stripping opponents of the puck or forcing turnovers. That's fundamental to good defense. In fact, that's fundamental to Montreal transition hockey.

You're right that Desharnais needs sheltering. He's also still new to the NHL and, despite his age, still far from a finished product. Given his history, and his on ice smarts and hard work, he's a tough one to bet against.

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Old
03-04-2013, 08:11 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
It takes courage to admit that we were wrong. I hope others will follow your example!

I personally thought Halak should have been kept instead of Price, when Jaro was traded. I also wished we got rid of Bourque last summer. I guess we all have to eat crows at some points.
its not about admitting right or wrong , its being realistic folks

DD is what he is , a one dimensional player finesse player , who unless he plays on the top line and PP time with top players , he can't help u at all in any other area ..

if he were St. Loius or Fleury , Marchand , or our ver own Mats Naslund , god love him and keep him

But these DD types like Wellwood, Hudler, Derek Roy ,etc.... you don't win with them

don't look at stats , its about cups , and he and Pleks will get crucified come playoff time in a best of 7

he will fit in well in Nashville , get 50- 60 points and win nothing

and back to Halak he got reed for one reason and we are seeing to now

HE DOENST HAVE THE FRAME TO PLAY NUMBER 1 GOALIE GAMES AND MINUTES , he is a 1b a 50 game player

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03-04-2013, 08:21 PM
  #38
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I honestly think that if he could become a winger, it'd be ideal. Montreal would be able to get their hands on a HUGE centre and Desharnais would stay in the team. Let's face it, he's incredibly good but sadly, he's very short.

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Old
03-04-2013, 08:38 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
But the question you should all ask yourself is the following: How comes this line start to work exactly at the same time Galchenyuk was taking out of the center position and put on wing with Eller (and his production start to slow down)?

Can't sheltered two lines at the same time........

But i know......offensive and scoresheet is everything right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
You're right that Desharnais needs sheltering. He's also still new to the NHL and, despite his age, still far from a finished product. Given his history, and his on ice smarts and hard work, he's a tough one to bet against.
Seriously guys, you should give up with the "sheltering" argument. The idea that DD is having success only because he's being "sheltered" by a 5'8" rookie in Brendan Gallagher might be the most laughable argument you can make.

Just admit it. DD is proving you wrong once again by showing he can have success even without playing between 2 big power forwards. The only thing he needs is wingers who can complete some of his plays by puting the puck in the net, and that's it.

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03-04-2013, 08:41 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
its not about admitting right or wrong , its being realistic folks

DD is what he is , a one dimensional player finesse player , who unless he plays on the top line and PP time with top players , he can't help u at all in any other area ..

if he were St. Loius or Fleury , Marchand , or our ver own Mats Naslund , god love him and keep him

But these DD types like Wellwood, Hudler, Derek Roy ,etc.... you don't win with them

don't look at stats , its about cups , and he and Pleks will get crucified come playoff time in a best of 7

he will fit in well in Nashville , get 50- 60 points and win nothing

and back to Halak he got reed for one reason and we are seeing to now

HE DOENST HAVE THE FRAME TO PLAY NUMBER 1 GOALIE GAMES AND MINUTES , he is a 1b a 50 game player
you should probably temporarily change your username to onemorebeer

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03-04-2013, 08:50 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
Seriously guys, you should give up with the "sheltering" argument. The idea that DD is having success only because he's being "sheltered" by a 5'8" rookie in Brendan Gallagher might be the most laughable argument you can make.

Just admit it. DD is proving you wrong once again by showing he can have success even without playing between 2 big power forwards. The only thing he needs is wingers who can complete some of his plays by puting the puck in the net, and that's it.
I think you've entirely misunderstood my post.

Desharnais isn't proving me wrong this season because I was a fan, and believer in his, for the past couple of seasons (admittedly, I was skeptical when he was still in the minors).

My post that you responded to was even supportive of him! So I'm uncertain how you could have misinterpreted it.

In any event, sheltering in this context has nothing to do with who his wingers are. He could play between Gionta and Gallagher and still be sheltered. What we're referring to is that he gets easier minutes. Sheltered minutes refer to one, or both, of the following: a) playing against weaker opponents (e.g., bottom lines, depth players); b) being put on the ice predominantly in offensive situations (e.g., Desharnais will most often take offensive faceoffs, like Plekanec and the 4th line will most often take defensive draws).

You can be a fan of Desharnais' and appreciate what he brings to the table without ignoring the reality that he is sheltered. And there's nothing wrong with being sheltered, as I outlined in my previous post. In fact, that's the proper way to develop young players -- which Desharnais ought to be considered still!

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03-04-2013, 08:53 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
its not about admitting right or wrong , its being realistic folks

DD is what he is , a one dimensional player finesse player , who unless he plays on the top line and PP time with top players , he can't help u at all in any other area ..

if he were St. Loius or Fleury , Marchand , or our ver own Mats Naslund , god love him and keep him

But these DD types like Wellwood, Hudler, Derek Roy ,etc.... you don't win with them

don't look at stats , its about cups , and he and Pleks will get crucified come playoff time in a best of 7

he will fit in well in Nashville , get 50- 60 points and win nothing

and back to Halak he got reed for one reason and we are seeing to now

HE DOENST HAVE THE FRAME TO PLAY NUMBER 1 GOALIE GAMES AND MINUTES , he is a 1b a 50 game player
This is all based on speculation. The only facts we have is :

DD has reached the conference finals 2 years in a row in the QMJHL (2003-04, 2004-05)
He has won the Kelly Cup (ECHL) 2007-08.
He lost in 7 games in conference finals for the Calder Cup (AHL) in 2009-10.

Based in these evidences, nothing tells us that he couldn't repeat in the NHL. To compare DD to Kyle Wellwood is really showing your bias...

Also, I agree DD is unidimensional as an offensive player. But last time I checked, scoring goals was still the most effective way to win hockey games.

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03-04-2013, 09:01 PM
  #43
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I think you've entirely misunderstood my post.

Desharnais isn't proving me wrong this season because I was a fan, and believer in his, for the past couple of seasons (admittedly, I was skeptical when he was still in the minors).

My post that you responded to was even supportive of him! So I'm uncertain how you could have misinterpreted it.

In any event, sheltering in this context has nothing to do with who his wingers are. He could play between Gionta and Gallagher and still be sheltered. What we're referring to is that he gets easier minutes. Sheltered minutes refer to one, or both, of the following: a) playing against weaker opponents (e.g., bottom lines, depth players); b) being put on the ice predominantly in offensive situations (e.g., Desharnais will most often take offensive faceoffs, like Plekanec and the 4th line will most often take defensive draws).

You can be a fan of Desharnais' and appreciate what he brings to the table without ignoring the reality that he is sheltered. And there's nothing wrong with being sheltered, as I outlined in my previous post. In fact, that's the proper way to develop young players -- which Desharnais ought to be considered still!
I still don't get why the 29 other teams would never use their best defensive line against what has been the Habs best offensive line since 2 seasons now. It's not like the Habs coaching staff always had the last word in it! And I don't think the 29 other coaching staffs are dumb enough to put their 4th line against them on a regular basis. I have a hard time believing this.

Actually, the best defensive line of a team is often the 3rd. So I wouldn't be surprised if DD's line often have to face this line. You may see it as being "sheltered" because it's a "bottom line". But I'm pretty sure that other teams are wise enough to place their best defensive players against them now.

By the way, you may use the word "sheltered" this way, but many other DD's detractors here kept arguing that he could only succeed if he was being "sheltered" between 2 big wingers, which he is now proving to be wrong.

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03-04-2013, 09:07 PM
  #44
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I still don't get why the 29 other teams would never use their best defensive line against what has been the Habs best offensive line since 2 seasons now. It's not like the Habs coaching staff always had the last word in it! And I don't think the 29 other coaching staffs are dumb enough to put their 4th line against them on a regular basis. I have a hard time believing this.

Actually, the best defensive line of a team is often the 3rd. So I wouldn't be surprised if DD's line often have to face this line. You may see it as being "sheltered" because it's a "bottom line". But I'm pretty sure that other teams are wise enough to place their best defensive players against them now.

By the way, you may use the word "sheltered" this way, but many other DD's detractors here kept arguing that he could only succeed if he was being "sheltered" between 2 big wingers, which he is now proving to be wrong.
I don't want to get too involved in the DD/sheltered argument, but I see the bolded statement every once in a while, and I don't believe it to be true. To use the Habs and a few recent opponents as examples, Plekanec, Bergeron, Crosby and Grabovsky center the best defensive lines on their respective teams, none of them being a 3rd line. You could do this excercise throughout the league, I doubt you would find many 3rd lines that are their teams' top defensive lines.

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03-04-2013, 09:10 PM
  #45
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I wasn't a big fan, nor a hater but I must admit he really is growing on me.

I just hope that the next time he will have a rough time for whatever reason ('cause y'know, it happens to almost every single player), people will not forget what he can bring to the table and crap on him because he is small.

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03-04-2013, 09:12 PM
  #46
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I don't want to get too involved in the DD/sheltered argument, but I see the bolded statement every once in a while, and I don't believe it to be true. To use the Habs and a few recent opponents as examples, Plekanec, Bergeron, Crosby and Grabovsky center the best defensive lines on their respective teams, none of them being a 3rd line. You could do this excercise throughout the league, I doubt you would find many 3rd lines that are their team's top defensive line.
But still, if the stats we use to show that DD is "sheltered" is that he's not facing the other teams top offensive line, then it's skewed because the top offensive line is not necessarily the top defensive line. I would even argue that on most teams, it's not the case at all.

Let's pick any player from any other team. Would we say he is "sheltered" if he's not facing the Habs best offensive line, which is DD's line? Of course not, because defensively, it's far from being the most effective. But if the stats that is being used to show that DD is sheltered is built on this model, then it's not valid for very obvious reasons.

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03-04-2013, 09:14 PM
  #47
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Seriously guys, you should give up with the "sheltering" argument. The idea that DD is having success only because he's being "sheltered" by a 5'8" rookie in Brendan Gallagher might be the most laughable argument you can make.

Just admit it. DD is proving you wrong once again by showing he can have success even without playing between 2 big power forwards. The only thing he needs is wingers who can complete some of his plays by puting the puck in the net, and that's it.
Please stop criticizing Gallagher.

He is the best forward on the team, number 1, for even strength points/60, he gets 4.23 p/60, Pacioretty follows with 3.64/60, then Galchenyuk with 2.62/60, then Eller with 2.37/60, then Desharnais with 2.33/60.

Any offensive center in the NHL, from Crosby to Benn, would benefit from a winger like Gallagher.

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03-04-2013, 09:17 PM
  #48
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Please stop criticizing Gallagher.

He is the best forward on the team, number 1, for even strength points/60, he gets 4.23 p/60, Pacioretty follows with 3.64/60, then Galchenyuk with 2.62/60, then Eller with 2.37/60, then Desharnais with 2.33/60.

Any offensive center in the NHL, from Crosby to Benn, would benefit from a winger like Gallagher.
I never criticized Gallagher! I think you read me wrong.

Last year, DD's detractor were saying that DD was only succeding because he was playing with 2 big power forwards, MaxPac and Cole. Well, this year he's proving them wrong by having the same success with a small forward (but a very good one too, of course).

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03-04-2013, 09:20 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
I still don't get why the 29 other teams would never use their best defensive line against what has been the Habs best offensive line since 2 seasons now. It's not like the Habs coaching staff always had the last word in it! And I don't think the 29 other coaching staffs are dumb enough to put their 4th line against them on a regular basis. I have a hard time believing this.

Actually, the best defensive line of a team is often the 3rd. So I wouldn't be surprised if DD's line often have to face this line. You may see it as being "sheltered" because it's a "bottom line". But I'm pretty sure that other teams are wise enough to place their best defensive players against them now.

By the way, you may use the word "sheltered" this way, but many other DD's detractors here kept arguing that he could only succeed if he was being "sheltered" between 2 big wingers, which he is now proving to be wrong.
This.

1- it makes Martin and Cunneyworth pass off as geniuses for outsmarting opposing coaches by sheltering DD

(I think that by now, we know they weren't )

2- 50% of games are played on the road, where the local team has final say on lines matchup (unless we're assuming that the other 29 coaching staffs are a bunch of morons)

3- maybe Therrien should go 'full Smurf' and play a line of Gallagher - Desharnais - Gionta, just to prove DD can/can't cut it in the NHL once and for all

Patch - DD - Cole was one of the most productive lines in the NHL last year, and they weren't on the other teams' radar? Yeah, right

Guess what? It won't happen every night, but whether it's Max - DD - Gally or any other line combo, Desharnais' line will get their fair share of points/hit the other team where it hurts/win Habs games.

The beauty of it all is that (* crossing fingers that the team's core stays in shape *) Habs don't have to rely on one single trio to get goals. Scoring can come from the first 3 lines, and even the 4th can contribute every now and then.

GO HABS GO!

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03-04-2013, 09:20 PM
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Kjell Dahlin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
I still don't get why the 29 other teams would never use their best defensive line against what has been the Habs best offensive line since 2 seasons now. It's not like the Habs coaching staff always had the last word in it! And I don't think the 29 other coaching staffs are dumb enough to put their 4th line against them on a regular basis. I have a hard time believing this.

Actually, the best defensive line of a team is often the 3rd. So I wouldn't be surprised if DD's line often have to face this line. You may see it as being "sheltered" because it's a "bottom line". But I'm pretty sure that other teams are wise enough to place their best defensive players against them now.

By the way, you may use the word "sheltered" this way, but many other DD's detractors here kept arguing that he could only succeed if he was being "sheltered" between 2 big wingers, which he is now proving to be wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
I don't want to get too involved in the DD/sheltered argument, but I see the bolded statement every once in a while, and I don't believe it to be true. To use the Habs and a few recent opponents as examples, Plekanec, Bergeron, Crosby and Grabovsky center the best defensive lines on their respective teams, none of them being a 3rd line. You could do this excercise throughout the league, I doubt you would find many 3rd lines that are their teams' top defensive lines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
But still, if the stats we use to show that DD is "sheltered" is that he's not facing the other teams top offensive line, then it's skewed because the top offensive line is not necessarily the top defensive line. I would even argue that on most teams, it's not the case at all.

Let's pick any player from any other team. Would we say he is "sheltered" if he's not facing the Habs best offensive line, which is DD's line? Of course not, because defensively, it's far from being the most effective. But if the stats that is being used to show that DD is sheltered is built on this model, then it's not valid for very obvious reasons.
If you look at the play by play report from last night, Desharnais’ line mostly played against Kelly’s line and Zdeno Chara. This phenomenon is repeating itself since last season: our opponents are sending their top D pairing and a sound two ways line against Desharnais, Pacioretty and Cole/Gallagher. Some people call it, playing against the Chara of this world, “weak” opposition.

That said, an alert coach would not send them against our opponent top offensive line; that’s Plekanec’s job.

Ref.: http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreport...3/PL020316.HTM

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