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What does MacKinnon have over Barkov?

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Old
03-03-2013, 11:28 AM
  #126
Misfire Puck
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Originally Posted by SpeedDemon View Post
LOL. that's definitely a good one.

not really sure why but NA's are often given the edge above the euro's. been trying to figure that out for years.



is it do with the rink size? the different style of play? or is it something else?

Some european players have problems to adjust to smaller rinks, physicality etc. And some players never adjust.


Last edited by Misfire Puck: 03-03-2013 at 11:34 AM.
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03-03-2013, 12:03 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by toewsintangibles View Post
I really doubt Mackinnon will be as good defensively on the NHL level on defense as Barkov
Defense is probably one of those things but it's also the easiest to replace as well in the form of a 3rd line Center, Nathan offensive attributes were he is better over Barkov are not as easily replaced.

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03-03-2013, 12:26 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by thomast View Post
No, you're complitely wrong. NLA the swiss league might have as good top teams as FEL but it only means Zurich and Bern. Some of the teams might have better top players but thats it. NLA has the rule that they can have 5 foreign players in their teams per team after that rest of the players have to be swiss nationality. the depth of swiss players can't match FEL players and most of NLA team players would be finland tier 2 players and some of them might have hard time to crack in to tier 2 league team.

This is my ranks for the best leagues in the world:

NHL

KHL

SEL
FEL

AHL

NLA
Czech extraleague
Allsvenskan

Austrian league

Not sure where i slot VHL as i have limited views from that league. I doubt that Hardyvan have seen many FEL or NLA games to make such an judgement. The difference between SEL and FEL is for example minimal. Swedish player Mika Hannula stated that FEL is much faster and more physical but SEL is slightly better league in terms of skill but the difference is very small.
You are right, I do have limited viewing of most leagues in the NHL, like 99.9% of everyone else on here.

Your gap between the NHL and KHL and SEL, FEL and AHL is also very interesting to say the least.

My point was and still is that Barkov isn't exactly playing in the best league in the world so it's really hard to gauge his true talent and most scouts and reports have him behind Nathan for a reason.

Quote:
NLA game is pretty soft compared to other european league hockey especially to FEL which is the most physical and fast paced game in europe. NLA, Czech extraleague and allsvenskan(swedish 2nd tier league) are very close which each other.
I'll have to take your unbiased word on this one perhaps others have thoughts on this?




Quote:
So you're claiming that MacKinnon is an better two-way player, defensively, as effective PK player, higher hockeyIQ? Barkov is already best two-way player of FEL and he played most of the season against NHL-lockout players and looked better than most of those players. People forget that fact that Barkov actualy played against some NHLers and outplayed them. Mikko Koivu who is #1 C in a NHL team actualy looked worse than this 17 year old kid when they was matched against. I don't say that Barkov is better than Mikko Koivu but if he is able to put better performance and take over the game against established NHL-star who competed being only 17 it is impressive and not only offensively but defensively aswell. Hard to see that MacKinnon has faced such an competition.
Look Hockey IQ can't be measured it's very subjective and is usually "the player I like has more than yours". As for the other areas they all can be coached quite easily and are easier to replace than pure offense.

As for the lockout players playing against Barkov, they for the most part take it easy and don't go all out 100% like an extended training camp. some players do more or less but it's hard to take anything constructive from these games (referring to the locked out NHLers in the league)

Quote:
I have only seen MacKinnon at WJC and he disappointed me. I won't say whos the better because i lack knowledge from
MacKinnon but i believe that Hardyvan lacks alot of knowledge from Barkov and actually from all european hockey. People says that MacKinnon didn't impress because he had limited icetime and no PP. Barkov did have limited icetime and no PP at WJC in alberta as 16 year old and looked impressive. From my views Barkov at 16 year old at WJC>17 year old MacKinnon at WJC. Barkov has closed the gap all year with MacKinnon and might be ahead him at the draft.
Every year players close the gap on the #1 guy and this year is no different. I don't take alot of stock in small sample WJC play because roles of players and their status on their teams are almost always different for draft year players (or in the rare case younger, usually meaning a pretty weak entry for that to happen)

Quote:
Barkov at WJC as 16 year old in small rink at alberta:



Dragan Umicevic the swedish serbian hockey player and linemate of Barkov who played with Anze Kopitar when he was similar age as Barkov is now stated that Barkov is most talented hockey player he has ever played with including Kopitar.

I think that Barkov has ceiling of an updated version of Anze Kopitar which is an ridiculous hockey player. Not saying that he reaches it but his ceiling.

90point, perennial selke nominee as good offensively and defensively. Can play at all situations, team player who blocks shots even when his team is leading with multiple goals. Plays and shows example to everyone by playing like coach wants. He buys everything what coach sells to him even the little things and shows example to other team mates. There is no players in FEL who makes as less mistakes as Barkov. When you watch him you'll notice how well he blocks the passing lanes, defends infront of goal and take space away from opponent. All the little things are done.
I see the same ceiling with Barkov but with Nathan I see Sid light, a guy who is a dynamic difference maker, potential top 3-5 center in the league (assuming the current guys all are healthy).

Quote:
I will expect Barkov to win multiple selkes if he developes at this rate and i'm not even kidding. Barkov is an extremely effective takeaway machine and he rarely loses the puck. There is no major weakness in his game, his skating is his weakest area but it is developing with huge leaps all the time. After next summer he could be very good skater very well. He is 17 year old and 6'3 210ish so it's expected that his skating isn't ready.

Offensively he is destroying every record in FEL for draft eligible player. At this rate he is topping Olli Jokinen's old record by 10 points despite Jokinen was nearly 1 year older and played one dimensional game. Barkov is doing that all by playing best two-way game in entire league. Even when majority season was played with NHL-lockout players...

I'm not comparing Barkov to other players of this draft but Barkov might have the best draft year ever in europe for draft eligible player think about that and he is one of the youngest prospects for the draft. If he did that in the AHL people in north america would talk him as generational talent.

My point of this post is that between these 2 there is no clear cut favourite or other one is better in all department than other etc. The marginals are minimal in the top. MacKinnon was clearly the favourite for #1 at the beginning of the season. Barkov and others have closed the gap. I only see MacKinnon as better skater and Barkov as bigger and stronger all the other are arguable and there is no big difference.
Nathan is a clear cut favorite though due to his skating and dynamic offense which can't be taught. That being said if Nathan is a 100 player in this years draft, on a scale of 1-100 then Barkov is in the mid 90 zone. Seth Jones is also a 100 player while Drouin I would put in the mid 90 zone as well.

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03-03-2013, 12:35 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Metalcommand View Post
People are getting too carried away with all these 90-point this and that or even PPG this and that and that's for every prospect. In the last two seasons there have been a grand 18 players that scored over 80 points. 9 each year.
Exactly, people often forget how hard it is to score 80 points in a post lockout NHL, never mind on a consistent basis.

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Originally Posted by thomast View Post
His upside and ceiling if he is more talented than Kopitar who is about an PPG player. No one has stated that he will become one but he has chance to be about 90 pt player. He has all the tools and destroyed basically all draft eligible records in FEL and he is very late born... With right enviroment and good players he has potential to be one. Barkov is effective goal scorer and playmaker. He is very versatile in the offensive zone.
Kopitar so far has a had one 81 point season and it doesn't look like he will ever hit 90, how is Barkov going to have a ceiling of 90? 70 would be more realistic at this point.

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03-03-2013, 12:40 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Exactly, people often forget how hard it is to score 80 points in a post lockout NHL, never mind on a consistent basis.



Kopitar so far has a had one 81 point season and it doesn't look like he will ever hit 90, how is Barkov going to have a ceiling of 90? 70 would be more realistic at this point.
It also depends on what team you play on in regards to points which is something people keep ignoring. I'm willing to bet Kopitar would hit 90 points at least once by now for example on Philly. They just play a different game. 1 point on team A isn't always 1 point on team B, and some teams hide defensive mistakes better than others etc. Teams have different identities that lead to different outcomes and how a certain player is perceived. A bit off topic but you can carry on now.

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03-03-2013, 12:50 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Exactly, people often forget how hard it is to score 80 points in a post lockout NHL, never mind on a consistent basis.



Kopitar so far has a had one 81 point season and it doesn't look like he will ever hit 90, how is Barkov going to have a ceiling of 90? 70 would be more realistic at this point.
Maybe i had wrong word choice. Barkov definetly has 90 point upside/potential. He has probably best season as draft eligible player from europe. Atleast top 5. Kopitar has had minor injuries during his seasons. He is about PPG player and Barkov is more talented than Kopitar at same age. I'm not saying that Kopitar is 90pt player but if Barkov has more talent and Kopitar is about an PPG player then Barkov should have chance to be 90pt player in the future.

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03-03-2013, 12:59 PM
  #132
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I think he does compare to Kopitar but with better offensive upside. I think Barkov will score 30 goals. Drouin plays like Bure. Mac I would never draft high he is just not that special.

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03-03-2013, 01:02 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by thomast View Post
Maybe i had wrong word choice. Barkov definetly has 90 point upside/potential. He has probably best season as draft eligible player from europe. Atleast top 5. Kopitar has had minor injuries during his seasons. He is about PPG player and Barkov is more talented than Kopitar at same age. I'm not saying that Kopitar is 90pt player but if Barkov has more talent and Kopitar is about an PPG player then Barkov should have chance to be 90pt player in the future.
At this point Barkov needs to get better at skating to be seen as a better player than Kopitar.

At the end of the day I see Nathan and Seth going 1,2 then probably Drouin (for offensive upside) and Barkov 4th.

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03-03-2013, 01:13 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
At this point Barkov needs to get better at skating to be seen as a better player than Kopitar.

At the end of the day I see Nathan and Seth going 1,2 then probably Drouin (for offensive upside) and Barkov 4th.
Umicevic stated that Barkov is more talented that Kopitar was at the same age. Barkov has more impressive record that Kopitar had at same age. Barkov is 17, 6'3 and about 210lbs it's normal that his skating isn't ready.

Draft order is hard to predict different teams have different lists and needs. I could see some teams having Barkov over Drouin and some teams have Barkov and Drouin over MacKinnon.

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03-03-2013, 01:17 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by thomast View Post
Umicevic stated that Barkov is more talented that Kopitar was at the same age. Barkov has more impressive record that Kopitar had at same age. Barkov is 17, 6'3 and about 210lbs it's normal that his skating isn't ready.

Draft order is hard to predict different teams have different lists and needs. I could see some teams having Barkov over Drouin and some teams have Barkov and Drouin over MacKinnon.
That's one mans opinion.

Teams never draft on need, they draft on best player available and both you and I haven't seen any teams lists.

When Barkov goes 4th, which is my guess, can the "Barkov is the steal of the draft" threads be far behind?

Maybe he goes 3rd if some team like him more than Droiun, for size issues but Nathan and Seth are clearly #1 impact guys in this years draft IMO.

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03-03-2013, 01:29 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
At this point Barkov needs to get better at skating to be seen as a better player than Kopitar.

At the end of the day I see Nathan and Seth going 1,2 then probably Drouin (for offensive upside) and Barkov 4th.
I don't see that Nathan or Drouin has more upside in offensive than Barkov. Many people here haven't seen Barkov that much and he is absolutely awesome in offensive. Because his defensive skills people now talking more that he don't have that much offensive skills and potential, but Barkov has break all Europian records before his draft in points. He is very good and smooth skater (like Datsyuk), not that explosive than Nathan, but he is IMO too big for that and also has grown very fast so he will get closer, but because his frame, he don't have to be rocket.

Only reason why Barkov wasn't 1st in my list is cause his from Finland, i just can believe that kind of offensive-defensive skilled big monster is from Finland. He is also one of the youngest in this draft. If he was Swedish and he played in SEL he would be one and only number 1 in this draft, for my paper but i think everyone else here too.

Still, there is lot to go. If Barkov will be killer in playoffs, get call in our WHC team, stay healthy and would be shape in the camp, he can go 1st.

Now my lis are:

Jones
Drouin
MacKinnon
Barkov

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03-03-2013, 01:35 PM
  #137
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I would say Tavares has the better shot, but MacKinnon is better at just about everything else. Their hockey IQ's are probably equal though.
Wow..

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03-03-2013, 01:44 PM
  #138
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To be honest Mackinnon is this years' Yakupov. Will be a good to great player, but won't be a Tavares or anything.

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03-03-2013, 02:01 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by nki View Post
It also depends on what team you play on in regards to points which is something people keep ignoring. I'm willing to bet Kopitar would hit 90 points at least once by now for example on Philly. They just play a different game. 1 point on team A isn't always 1 point on team B, and some teams hide defensive mistakes better than others etc. Teams have different identities that lead to different outcomes and how a certain player is perceived. A bit off topic but you can carry on now.
exactly 2 players from Philly has had over a PPG over a full season since the lockout.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Scoring at a PPG, never mind 90 points, is really tougher than most think in a post lockout NHL.

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03-03-2013, 02:05 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by toewsintangibles View Post
To be honest Mackinnon is this years' Yakupov. Will be a good to great player, but won't be a Tavares or anything.
Either you think really highly of Yakupov or not very much of Nathan, most would disagree with you here, especially the experts.

Yak would be lucky to go 5th in this years draft.

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03-03-2013, 02:12 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Scoring at a PPG, never mind 90 points, is really tougher than most think in a post lockout NHL.
I don't disagree but if you look at pace instead of full season there were 7 on Philly. There was also enough roster turnover from Philly to LA and back and tracking PPG of those players that you could make an educated guess that Kopitar would be over PPG at least once in Philly.

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03-03-2013, 02:28 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
That's one mans opinion.

Teams never draft on need, they draft on best player available and both you and I haven't seen any teams lists.

When Barkov goes 4th, which is my guess, can the "Barkov is the steal of the draft" threads be far behind?

Maybe he goes 3rd if some team like him more than Droiun, for size issues but Nathan and Seth are clearly #1 impact guys in this years draft IMO.
Europinionman.


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03-03-2013, 02:56 PM
  #143
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Either you think really highly of Yakupov or not very much of Nathan, most would disagree with you here, especially the experts.

Yak would be lucky to go 5th in this years draft.
I think Nail would be lucky to go 8th. I'd take Alex and Murray ahead of him if they were all 3 in this years draft.

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03-03-2013, 03:07 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by OldGoaltender View Post
I think Nail would be lucky to go 8th. I'd take Alex and Murray ahead of him if they were all 3 in this years draft.
Well hindsight is 20-20, personally I thought the Oilers should have taken Murray or a tall Center like Grigor or Alex but sometimes picking number 1 isn't the best thing.

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03-04-2013, 01:34 PM
  #145
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To be fair the Finnish elite league isn't in the top 3 in the world and the Swiss league might even be ahead of it in 4th.
To be fair, neither is the CHL.

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03-04-2013, 01:59 PM
  #146
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I seem to be late chiming in on this...but I've heard the only real separation between the two is explosiveness.

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03-04-2013, 03:12 PM
  #147
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I seem to be late chiming in on this...but I've heard the only real separation between the two is explosiveness.
In height?

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03-04-2013, 03:16 PM
  #148
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It comes down to the explosiveness and speed Mackinnon brings and the questions that surround Barkov. I have little doubt that he will be able to make the transition to a NA game, but the fact that those questions have to be answered is a big reason why Barkov remains behind Mackinnon, at least for me.

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03-04-2013, 05:26 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by OldGoaltender View Post
I think Nail would be lucky to go 8th. I'd take Alex and Murray ahead of him if they were all 3 in this years draft.
Absolutely no way. Why has everyone soured on Yakupov? He's had a pretty good year in the KHL and is having a decent rookie season for the Oil.

You can't teach his explosiveness or wicked shot.

I think in the last 3 weeks, judging from various threads, the majority of posters wouldn't have taken Yakupov at #1. Why? I don't know. Apparently hf posters are better scouts than the majority of nhl scouts who had Yakupov as the best player in the 2012 draft.

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03-05-2013, 03:08 AM
  #150
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Originally Posted by alphafox View Post
It comes down to the explosiveness and speed Mackinnon brings and the questions that surround Barkov. I have little doubt that he will be able to make the transition to a NA game, but the fact that those questions have to be answered is a big reason why Barkov remains behind Mackinnon, at least for me.
Is it hard to understand? Barkov turned 17 in september, is 6`3" and weights 210-220. He is still growing so how the hell could he have the explosiveness of a 5`11", 160-180? I rather have a Thornton/Kopitar than a Kessel/Briere...

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