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Phoenix LXXII: Send in the Clowns

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Old
03-03-2013, 07:25 PM
  #676
aqib
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Ya, all excellent points Jim, however, it is in fact the very model upon which innumerable arenas & stadiums are built, the centre piece or Crown Jewel enjoined to retail, commercial & residential development. In some cases even in downtown urban settings, site specific to revitalize moribund areas. The Leafs, Habs, Winnipeg, Katz's plans in Edmonton, Hansens in Seattle, well, we could make stops just about everywhere, every state & province. Look at Hamilton's failure, built to secure an NHL franchise yes, but more importantly to serve as the anchor to revitalization & development of their downtown core. Wangs Lighthouse. The triangulations in Markham. Suburban settings, with a good parallel to Glendales vision being Ottawa, inconvenient location, Canadian dollar in free-fall, insolvency, hung on by their fingernails. Impossible to build stand-alone arenas/stadiums. Gone the ages of a Montreal Forum, Maple Leaf Gardens etc.
Hockey is a religion in TO, Montreal, Winnipeg, and Edmonton so it makes sense in those markets. Same with Hansen and Seattle with basketball. Additionally in all those cases it is the only major league arena in town and therefore faces no competition for other events. In Toronto's case I won't go so far as to call the area moribund without the ACC. Its Bay Street right next to Union Station.

Markham, we'll see. The York Region has over a million people and there are enough hockey fans in the GTA who don't like the Leafs to support a second team, whereas AZ doesn't have enough fans to support a first team.

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03-03-2013, 07:51 PM
  #677
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Ya, all excellent points Jim, however, it is in fact the very model upon which innumerable arenas & stadiums are built, the centre piece or Crown Jewel enjoined to retail, commercial & residential development. In some cases even in downtown urban settings, site specific to revitalize moribund areas. The Leafs, Habs, Winnipeg, Katz's plans in Edmonton, Hansens in Seattle, well, we could make stops just about everywhere, every state & province. Look at Hamilton's failure, built to secure an NHL franchise yes, but more importantly to serve as the anchor to revitalization & development of their downtown core. Wangs Lighthouse. The triangulations in Markham. Suburban settings, with a good parallel to Glendales vision being Ottawa, inconvenient location, Canadian dollar in free-fall, insolvency, hung on by their fingernails. Impossible to build stand-alone arenas/stadiums. Gone the ages of a Montreal Forum, Maple Leaf Gardens etc.
I agree and I never understood why cities constantly try to tout the imagined economic benefits of an arena instead of just stating the obvious; the citizens will get a lot of benefit from an arena they wouldn't otherwise get (whether that benefit is worth it is another question). Even if they aren't a sports fan, they will still get better concert experiences, better ice shows, better tractor truck pulls, better circuses, etc with a new arena. So for cities that do not already have a large modern arena (like QC and Edmonton), it makes some sense to build the arena even if there is no economic reason to. Seattle is in a weird position where it has a large, modern arena, but it isn't nice enough for a NBA/NHL franchise. But if Key Arena remains open after the new arena is built, they will still compete for those concerts, ice shows, circuses, etc. Markham will be in the same situation as Glendale if it is largely publicly financed. Glendale already has US Airways Arena, so the people of Glendale/Phoenix weren't going to get much additional benefit from a second large, modern arena. The area simply isn't big enough to support two.

If you want to read more on the fallacy of the promised economic benefits of arenas and stadiums, read chapter 12 in Soccernomics. It talks not only about stadiums, but also hosting large events, like World Cups and Olympics. They only just rarely bring any real economic benefit to the area.

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The malls & commercial spaces so to require anchor tenants in order to draw & maintain traffic 365. Beyond the AMC theatre at Westgate, before Tanger, absolutely nothing but a collection of independents, boutiques, no majors whatsoever. Combination of the economic meltdown, Ellmans "vision" and Glendales insistence that the joint be populated with such, not wanting to see it turn into a sort of industrial mile of big boxes not only pretentious but so too very foolish. A sort of Beverly Hills Rodeo Drive meets 5th Avenue in New York in Glendale. I mean honestly, what were they thinking? You need at least two or more major's, anchors to such a plan. UofP Stadium & Glendale Arena simply the hook's. When approved & built, projections for rapid development & economic development throughout the West Valley beyond promising.

Had the 04/05 Lockout not occurred less than a year after the arena opens preceding the sub-prime mortgage & market meltdowns, Ellmans inability to execute & crash, Moyes' inheritance of the franchise & Swifts decline, Gretzky unable to translate his brilliance from ice to bench to executive suites, Glendales inability to change on the fly and refusing to honestly face & deal with the problems in simply throwing cash & falsely crafted paper at the wall & hoping something stuck, big problems and so here we are. But if you tear it down, deconstruct, then ya, less games over a season better overall for everyone, the anchor destination retailers & service providers combined with the development & bookings of concerts, events, trade & consumer shows?.... away you go.
I'm not sure we will ever see the confluence of poor decision making, bad luck, and absurd ideas as this one. Someone here, can't remember who, said both law and business classes will have many years using this as a case study. While they never promised the arena would bring great economic benefit, they did tie the arena to something that would. I suppose one could look at it this way. They tried to tie the success of a large retail development to a large, modern indoor arena whose main tenant competed in a sport that in the absolute best terms would be described as non-traditional. For all that, they threw hundreds of millions of dollars that they didn't have and only hoped and prayed they would have eventually. When it didn't initially work out, they decided to go "all in" and give even more money, only for no one to accept it.


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03-03-2013, 09:32 PM
  #678
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Hockey is a religion in TO, Montreal, Winnipeg, and Edmonton so it makes sense in those markets. Same with Hansen and Seattle with basketball. Additionally in all those cases it is the only major league arena in town and therefore faces no competition for other events. In Toronto's case I won't go so far as to call the area moribund without the ACC. Its Bay Street right next to Union Station. Markham, we'll see. The York Region has over a million people and there are enough hockey fans in the GTA who don't like the Leafs to support a second team, whereas AZ doesn't have enough fans to support a first team.
For decades the old Canada Post building and that entire area from Front south to Harbour Front & Queens Quay was a wasteland. The Gardiner above, railway tracks and vacant lots sprouting weeds, a hangout for the homeless, blocks of nothing between Union Station & the waterfront. The Expressway still a barrier, but since the mid to late 90's with the ACC (though kick started earlier with the Skydome to some degree) the areas seriously exploded, including MLSE's own condo & commercial developments. Markham as your well aware aqib looking at the arena as a centrepiece and anchor to an entirely new city centre from the old towns main street, so not unlike Glendale in that regard. And dicey, chancy, as Markham without an NHL franchise will not be able to sustain & maintain a facility like that, nor will they be able to max out development expediently enough and stay on target, focused. Wind up with a hodge-podge of this n' that, band-aid solutions like Hamilton in dealing with an NHL arena absent a team, but worse, Markhams plans along the lines of Kanata out near Ottawa, and just imagine the Senators dont exist.... goes without saying I disagree with your final point, but do carry on.


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03-04-2013, 12:00 AM
  #679
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For decades the old Canada Post building and that entire area from Front south to Harbour Front & Queens Quay was a wasteland. The Gardiner above, railway tracks and vacant lots sprouting weeds, a hangout for the homeless, blocks of nothing between Union Station & the waterfront. The Expressway still a barrier, but since the mid to late 90's with the ACC (though kick started earlier with the Skydome to some degree) the areas seriously exploded, including MLSE's own condo & commercial developments. Markham as your well aware aqib looking at the arena as a centrepiece and anchor to an entirely new city centre from the old towns main street, so not unlike Glendale in that regard. And dicey, chancy, as Markham without an NHL franchise will not be able to sustain & maintain a facility like that, nor will they be able to max out development expediently enough and stay on target, focused. Wind up with a hodge-podge of this n' that, band-aid solutions like Hamilton in dealing with an NHL arena absent a team, but worse, Markhams plans along the lines of Kanata out near Ottawa, and just imagine the Senators dont exist.... goes without saying I disagree with your final point, but do carry on.
There are about a million factors that have led to the development of downtown Toronto. The placement of ACC is one, but not a driving factor. Having the 5 largest banks in Canada headquartered right on Bay Street is a bigger driver as well.

As for Markham, again I go with the growth of that area. How many metropolitan areas the size of the GTA have only one major league arena. Chicago (although its bigger) has the All-State arena in the suburbs and it does fine. Other cities in Toronto's range (like Philly Washington) also have numerous college arenas in the area. I think the smarter play for Markham if expansion isn't in the offing is to do what OKC did and build a basic arena with the possibility of a build out if and when a team is awarded.

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03-04-2013, 01:52 AM
  #680
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As for Markham, again I go with the growth of that area. How many metropolitan areas the size of the GTA have only one major league arena. Chicago (although its bigger) has the All-State arena in the suburbs and it does fine. Other cities in Toronto's range (like Philly Washington) also have numerous college arenas in the area. I think the smarter play for Markham if expansion isn't in the offing is to do what OKC did and build a basic arena with the possibility of a build out if and when a team is awarded.
Hey, I hope Markham and Hamilton do get teams, not one or the other, both of them, and Im a life long Leafs fan. Was around when they were winning cups in my formative years, loyalty ingrained. That being said, I dont for a second believe Markham, Woodbine or anywhere else just outside or inside the GTA boundaries "needs" another "major league sized arena", not unless their absolutely guaranteed an NHL franchise. Youve got the ACC, Ricoh, Roy Thompson, Massey Hall, all kinds of facilities & venues, indoor & out as it is, with a lot of open dates. Glendales of course caught in a sort of reverse fulcrum, theyve got the building & the team, just havent ever had the kind of astute ownership at the helm required to truly make either "home". Brand is seriously messed up, building beyond under-utilized. Pretty sorry situation.

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03-04-2013, 06:16 AM
  #681
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For decades the old Canada Post building and that entire area from Front south to Harbour Front & Queens Quay was a wasteland. The Gardiner above, railway tracks and vacant lots sprouting weeds, a hangout for the homeless, blocks of nothing between Union Station & the waterfront. The Expressway still a barrier, but since the mid to late 90's with the ACC (though kick started earlier with the Skydome to some degreethe areas seriously exploded, including MLSE's own condo & commercial developments. Markham as your well aware aqib looking at the arena as a centrepiece and anchor to an entirely new city centre from the old towns main street, so not unlike Glendale in that regard. And dicey, chancy, as Markham without an NHL franchise will not be able to sustain & maintain a facility like that, nor will they be able to max out development expediently enough and stay on target, focused. Wind up with a hodge-podge of this n' that, band-aid solutions like Hamilton in dealing with an NHL arena absent a team, but worse, Markhams plans along the lines of Kanata out near Ottawa, and just imagine the Senators dont exist.... goes without saying I disagree with your final point, but do carry on.
To put the Current Toronto boom into perspective, Toronto currently has 147 condo highrises under construction, twice as many as NewYork. Vancouver in third place with 21.
Hmmmmmmm the story is in today's Sun, I can't cut and paste links with Playbook. Damn JB!

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03-04-2013, 07:43 AM
  #682
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To put the Current Toronto boom into perspective, Toronto currently has 147 condo highrises under construction, twice as many as NewYork. Vancouver in third place with 21.
Hmmmmmmm the story is in today's Sun, I can't cut and paste links with Playbook. Damn JB!
That's okay. The only people that actually care about that are people living in Toronto...

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03-04-2013, 07:50 AM
  #683
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That's http://www.torontosun.com/2013/03/03...nits-in-condosokay. The only people that actually care about that are people living in Toronto...
Well we hear alot about different fan bases claiming their city is booming...
Now we know the real story
Yay me today I learned how to copy and paste links with playbook
http://www.torontosun.com/2013/03/03...nits-in-condos

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03-04-2013, 08:13 AM
  #684
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Chicago (although its bigger) has the All-State arena in the suburbs and it does fine. Other cities in Toronto's range (like Philly Washington) also have numerous college arenas in the area. I think the smarter play for Markham if expansion isn't in the offing is to do what OKC did and build a basic arena with the possibility of a build out if and when a team is awarded.
Chicago is about 50% bigger in terms of metropolitan population than Toronto, so it really isn't a great comparision. In Philly, most of the other arenas have less than 10,000 seats, so there is nothing really to compete for large concerts with Wells Fargo Center. For DC, only Comcast Arena on Maryland's campus is large enough to compete, but it mostly hosts school events. In OKC's case, there wasn't a large arena in the area (unless you want to count the Myriad Convention Center, which was getting old), so it needed one for concerts and everything else. It wasn't until the Thunder came that they invested the money in it to make it NBA ready.

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03-04-2013, 10:14 AM
  #685
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where's jamison?

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03-04-2013, 10:55 AM
  #686
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where's jamison?
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In the Sherwood segment he suggests Jamison still lurking around now looking at a 12 year deal but still looking at 12-13 mil/year.....but it's half price...bargain!
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=547

http://sportsbreakthrough.com/show-a...hip-situation/

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03-04-2013, 11:08 AM
  #687
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To put the Current Toronto boom into perspective, Toronto currently has 147 condo highrises under construction, twice as many as NewYork. Vancouver in third place...
Crane City pretty much huh? Blew me away last time I was back there. Somethings just gotta be done about the Gardiner Expressway though. A noisy barrier to the waterfront. Tunnel perhaps.

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That's okay. The only people that actually care about that are people living in Toronto...
.... indeed. But back to point, I see no sense in Markham or anywhere else within or without the GTA building themselves a 17,000+ seat venue without full assurances from the NHL that yes, we'll sell you an Expansion Franchise or the next available through relo.

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where's jamison?
To quote Eugene Levy as Sid Dithers of SCTV fame, San Francisky? You ever been to San Francisky GS? Im guessin thats where he's at. Bay area. Up at the Lick Observatory on Mount Hamilton just east of San Jose'. Eyeballs glued to the lenses of their antique refracting telescope. Searching the Gamma Quadrant for his gold bearing fleets who are apparently lost. Waiting for the ships to arrive. Seems about as plausible as anything else at this stage in the game. Couldnt name his investors because he couldnt remember their names. Memory erased.

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03-04-2013, 11:33 AM
  #688
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Greg Jamison has been MIA since stumbling upon the scene many months back! His whereabouts today is no longer a story! What i want to know is has anyone seen the clowns in the building? better yet, have the preppies shown their faces at NHL offices in NYC or have they come on their knees to the COG council begging for largesse?

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03-04-2013, 11:42 AM
  #689
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where's jamison?
Looking for someone else to buy the Coyotes and be willing to hand over 25% ownership to Jamison for working out a lease agreement with the CoG.

I know its painful dealing with the CoG and it can drive one insane, but 25% ownership is a bit steep of a stipend for doing the CoG rummy dance.

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03-04-2013, 12:08 PM
  #690
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You ever been to San Francisky GS?
of course I have, killion. heck, ive even been to the cow palace.

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03-04-2013, 12:16 PM
  #691
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Well CF (and others), here's some light being shed on that 10K room-night / 200K visitors to the arena gig

Quote:
Paul Giblin ‏@PaulGiblinAriz
#Glendale City Council also to be briefed Tuesday about a #Jehovah's Witnesses' convention at the arena with 10,000 hotel room nights.
and a kinda old rumor now apparently coming to fruition...

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Paul Giblin ‏@PaulGiblinAriz
#Glendale City Council to get briefing Tuesday on #Cardinals training camp developments. Negotiations call for a 15-year deal.

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03-04-2013, 12:20 PM
  #692
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of course I have, killion. heck, ive even been to the cow palace.
Thats a neat old place. Sort of "Our Lady of Spain" architectural style meets Reggie Dunlop and a Memorial Gardens in Canton or someplace. Old school. I like it.

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03-04-2013, 02:14 PM
  #693
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Thats a neat old place. Sort of "Our Lady of Spain" architectural style meets Reggie Dunlop and a Memorial Gardens in Canton or someplace. Old school. I like it.
To either you or GS: is the scent in there as.....memorable as I've heard some Sharks fans mention when they played there? (couldn't find a cow smilie lol)

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03-04-2013, 02:40 PM
  #694
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To either you or GS: is the scent in there as.....memorable as I've heard some Sharks fans mention when they played there? (couldn't find a cow smilie lol)
It was always great after their annual two week roadtrip in February - when they had to vacate the Palace of Fine Cows for the Grand National Rodeo, Horse & Stock Show. The first couple of games back in the Bovine Bunker after that -

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03-04-2013, 02:57 PM
  #695
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I'm not about to weed through the past 10 or so pages since my last post, so to be frank...

1) Assuming nothing has been announced yet the NHL still owns the team, correct?

2) Have any of the "mysterious" suitors names / companies been released yet?

3) Greg Jamison? Who? He's back again.... *facepalm*

4) Has Joyce & Geo Fallar learned to control their inner stupidity and stopped posting blogs yet?

5) Was Kevy's list finally burned to ashes after being proven wrong so many times?

Updates much appreciated!

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03-04-2013, 03:06 PM
  #696
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It was always great after their annual two week roadtrip in February - when they had to vacate the Palace of Fine Cows for the Grand National Rodeo, Horse & Stock Show. The first couple of games back in the Bovine Bunker after that -
Oh my........

I'm guessing that wonderful aroma permiated everything: Beer, Food...I can only imagine (thankfully!)

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03-04-2013, 03:14 PM
  #697
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I'm not about to weed through the past 10 or so pages since my last post, so to be frank...

1) Assuming nothing has been announced yet the NHL still owns the team, correct?

2) Have any of the "mysterious" suitors names / companies been released yet?

3) Greg Jamison? Who? He's back again.... *facepalm*

4) Has Joyce & Geo Fallar learned to control their inner stupidity and stopped posting blogs yet?

5) Was Kevy's list finally burned to ashes after being proven wrong so many times?

Updates much appreciated!
1) Yes... Nothing announced to the contrary

2) Sparingly (Grains of salt dispersed)

3) Somewhat... only referenced by one CM

4)Nope - Wonderful source of intel

5) Unknown

Check back in a fortnight or invest in a seismometer, as any earth impacting news will be easily detected.

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03-04-2013, 03:23 PM
  #698
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I'm not about to weed through the past 10 or so pages since my last post, so to be frank...

4) Has Joyce & Geo Fallar learned to control their inner stupidity and stopped posting blogs yet?
Nope.

I do like this quote: Glendale has been one of the most transparent entities to offer every element of any proposed deal to its citizens.

Or dividing Coyotes fans into those who like steak and those who like hamburger. You have to read it to see the point she's trying to make.

It's internet entertainment.

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03-04-2013, 05:27 PM
  #699
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The first couple of games back in the Bovine Bunker after that -
Enclosed space, like parachuting into the epicentre of a 50,000 Head Feedlot in southern Arizona in July. Hydrogen sulphide readings right off the charts. Nuclear assault on ones nasal olfactory system, tear ducts. No smoking permitted within a 3 mile radius of the building. Joint Task Force of the California Weather Bureau & the EPA monitoring the situation. Warnings issued to residential & commercial/retail areas nearby. Schools, businesses shutdown. So ya. If your going to San Francisco to catch an event or hockey game just after Rodeo week at The Cow Palace, be sure to wear some flowers in your hair. You'll need them....

www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmyaDrAzq6o

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03-04-2013, 07:09 PM
  #700
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Originally Posted by ajmidd12 View Post
I'm not about to weed through the past 10 or so pages since my last post, so to be frank...

1) Assuming nothing has been announced yet the NHL still owns the team, correct?

2) Have any of the "mysterious" suitors names / companies been released yet?

3) Greg Jamison? Who? He's back again.... *facepalm*

4) Has Joyce & Geo Fallar learned to control their inner stupidity and stopped posting blogs yet?

5) Was Kevy's list finally burned to ashes after being proven wrong so many times?

Updates much appreciated!
1) Correct there hasn't even been a word from the NHL other than the fact that all their realignment scenarios have a team in Phoenix.

2) No. We assume Reinsdorf, ICE Edge, and Hulsizer are back in the mix. We only assume that because the mayor said 4 parties and we heard LeBlanc making waves.

3) I didn't see that. Do you have a link?

4) No.

5) Haven't heard from Kevy. Its too early to burn his list. Even though I have thought he was wrong all along, I guess since no one predicted the league would own the team for 4 years and the clusterbark that this has become would result in the mayor and vice mayor choosing not to run for reelection and the most adamant Coyotes supporter on council to lose her race we were all wrong.

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