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Old
03-04-2013, 11:44 AM
  #301
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Originally Posted by BankStreetParade View Post
...he got 17 PIMS and his team lost because he wasn't on the ice. So what exactly did he accomplish?
Where do you people come from? Seriously.. Jacques Martin hockey would probably be a welcome sight in Ottawa with the way people like you think.

What Chara did was something any championship calibre team would do. Oh, and Boston is 14-3-2, and on the verge of becoming the top ranked team in the Eastern Conference when they catch up on playing an equal amount of games to everyone else.

You take all the cheap shots or incidents that have happened to us this season and look at the responses to them, it's been nothing. Completely unacceptable. Most other teams in the league would respond every time, and it's concerning that ours doesn't. We'll never win in the playoffs until that changes either because there's always a team like the 07 Ducks at some point that will dominate you physically until you lose.

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03-04-2013, 11:44 AM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Bruiser View Post
Agreed. We desperately need to improve the offense of this team.
Won't the offense of the team improve when we get back some of our injured players? Who is available that Murray could get to improve the offense now? Likely no one unless you give up your best prospects. We need patience, why rush into anything now when they are still collecting pts & are in a playoff run & two pts out of first place. It's not like we are losing by 5 goals, our goaltending keeps us in every game & winning by one is fine as long as we are winning or getting into overtime. I don't think it is desperate at all, the experience our young guys are getting is important & they are improving. I'm looking forward to see what happens at the deadline & who Murray decides to move, if anyone.

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03-04-2013, 06:26 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by BankStreetParade View Post
...he got 17 PIMS and his team lost because he wasn't on the ice. So what exactly did he accomplish?
Short term pain for long term gain. His point was made and that's big against a division rival.

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03-04-2013, 06:54 PM
  #304
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His point was made and that's big against a division rival.
Yeah, his point made was that if you can get under his skin you can take out their captain and best player for a full period and win.

I can for sure see your guys' point that a bit more toughness would be useful, but Chara did not send any meaningful point at all. If anything, the Habs got bolstered here because they proved they could hang with them and win. No way were they intimidated.

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03-06-2013, 01:01 AM
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Toughness also helps win games because it creates more time and space for the skilled players while taking it away from the opposition's skilled players. Guys like Silfverberg and Turris could be more effective if allotted more time and space. Adding a bit more sand paper to the lineup could be the key to getting those guys scoring more consistently.

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03-06-2013, 01:21 AM
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How does it get skill players more time and space?

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03-06-2013, 06:57 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by arglebargle View Post
How does it get skill players more time and space?
Ask Claude Giroux if Scott Hartnell creates space for him to do his thing. This is just common hockey knowledge.

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03-06-2013, 09:02 AM
  #308
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Originally Posted by H2ODP View Post
Ask Claude Giroux if Scott Hartnell creates space for him to do his thing. This is just common hockey knowledge.
yip, size definitively makes space. that's one of the reasons greening was on the top line last year. that's not the question. the question is whether we have enough size/toughness currently. i say yes. aragorn, bruiser, etc. say no. i think this thread should be closed really.

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03-06-2013, 11:22 AM
  #309
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Originally Posted by the doctor View Post
Yeah, his point made was that if you can get under his skin you can take out their captain and best player for a full period and win.

I can for sure see your guys' point that a bit more toughness would be useful, but Chara did not send any meaningful point at all. If anything, the Habs got bolstered here because they proved they could hang with them and win. No way were they intimidated.
Maybe not in one game but over a seven game series it can have a very real impact. Markov & Kaberle don't like getting hit or run, look for their small defence to be targets. That's how TO beat Ottawa so often in the playoffs, Quinn has said as much many times. Montreal is too small & soft & I would think any team meeting them in the playoffs will try & run them but they have to stay out of the penalty box. That will be interesting too, how the refs ref in the playoffs, past yrs they call things in the beginning & slowly let things go as the game & series progress.

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03-06-2013, 12:43 PM
  #310
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God Says No,

You need to provide more rationale for your positions. You state your assertions as if they were axioms. I rarely if ever see you provide any inductive or deductive proofs to validate your positions.

I recommend this critical thinking course



It may be also worth your while to increase your exposure to the Bruins, Flyers and the Kings. In watching their games you can start to critically analyze and make inferences pertaining to how their physicality and intimidation tactics influence the various aspects of the game.

EDIT: the Youtube link doesn't seem to be embedding properly, try this link instead http://www.youtube.com/course?list=ECE2A771BBA7773B62

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03-06-2013, 01:39 PM
  #311
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you know i could have just changed my screen name with yours in your post and it would have rung true as well.

unfortunately "toughness" is not a stat on a game sheet. so we speak in subjective terms. that's why we'll never agree.

i'd like for you to come up with some proof that we are not tough enough. you can't. and don't use the amount of hits in a certain game because that doesn't prove anything.

just close this thread already as it doesn't bring anything substantial to the conversation.


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03-06-2013, 02:47 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by God Says No View Post
just close this thread already as it doesn't bring anything substantial to the conversation.
We should close the thread because people have differing opinions on the state of our team? Sounds like a great precedent.

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03-06-2013, 03:01 PM
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Well God Says No, a lot of toughness has to do with intimidation and that is hardly tangible. Aside from hits and fights most other aspects of toughness don't really show up on the score sheet. Therefore it can only be assessed by subjective inferences. But even then there would need to be an aggregate of those subjective inferences to create a probabilistic objective view of the level of toughness. Therefore I can only provide an individual subjective analysis of why I feel the Senators lack toughness.

In my assessment the game against the Flyers was the strongest indication that the Senators lacked toughness, followed by the games against the leafs and the Bruins. The Flyers took many liberties with our players as has been indicated by other posters in this thread. The Senators allowed them to take those liberties without much of a response. In the Bruins game, I felt the Senators looked timid; they gave the Bruins too much time and space and panicked when pressured. They seemed hesitant to enter battles along the boards or in the corners for loose pucks. In the Leafs game, they were heavily out hit and they took big runs at our skilled players and we again failed to respond adequately. Hitting has a big impact over the game, if it didn't then they would simply get rid of it. It s getting comical that there are posters on here that don't think hitting has an impact on the game.

Anyways I am done with this anyway, I have added you to my ignore list for a while now and I suggest that you add me to yours. There are many other posters on here that disagree with my opinions, but at least they provide strong rationale and intriguing debates that at times lead me to question or change my position. Your arguments basically consist of"maybe you're wrong" or "you're wrong because I say you're wrong". Your discussions and positions add no value to me on this forum and apparently mine fail to provide adequate value for you. So let us end our interactions.


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03-06-2013, 03:18 PM
  #314
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It seems to me that Murray & Maclean are slowly building a bigger tougher team by the guys that I think will eventually be on the roster over the next few yrs. What we don't have is a legitimate heavyweight enforcer & there is lots of debate whether we need one or not. I'm in favour of it as long as we have guys like Orr, Boyle, Renaldo & Lucic in our division/conference & in the league.

This is what I mean by Ottawa being big enough & tough enough already & may only need a part time enforcer but as I said even that is debatable.

Greening - Spezza - Michalek are all big & difficult to play against.

Silfverberg - Zibanejad - Stone are also good sized players & Stone is has some toughness.

Z. Smith - JOB - Neil are tough & difficult to play against & have decent size.

Bishop - Lehner - we even have some size & toughness in net.

Cowen, Methot, Wiercioch, Gryba, Phillips, Dzuirzynski & Grant all bring some good size & all are tough enough & a few of them will drop them when needed. We also have Blood, Kramer, Noesen, Ceci, Sdao etc... coming who all have decent size & Sdao may have heavyweight enforcer potential. So it seems they are building a bigger tougher team.

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03-06-2013, 03:22 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Bruiser View Post
Well God Says No, a lot of toughness has to do with intimidation and that is hardly tangible. Aside from hits and fights most other aspects of toughness don't really show up on the score sheet. Therefore it can only be assessed by subjective inferences. But even then there would need to be an aggregate of those subjective inferences to create a probabilistic objective view of the level of toughness. Therefore I can only provide an individual subjective analysis of why I feel the Senators lack toughness.

In my assessment the game against the Flyers was the strongest indication that the Senators lacked toughness, followed by the games against the leafs and the Bruins. The Flyers took many liberties with our players as has been indicated by other posters in this thread. The Senators allowed them to take those liberties without much of a response. In the Bruins game, I felt the Senators looked timid; they gave the Bruins too much time and space and panicked when pressured. They seemed hesitant to enter battles along the boards or in the corners for loose pucks. In the Leafs game, they were heavily out hit and they took big runs at our skilled players and we again failed to respond adequately. Hitting has a big impact over the game, if it didn't then they would simply get rid of it. It s getting comical that there are posters on here that don't think hitting has an impact on the game.

Anyways I am done with this anyway, I have added you to my ignore list for a while now and I suggest that you add me to yours. There are many other posters on here that disagree with my opinions, but at least they provide strong rationale and intriguing debates that at times lead me to question or change my position. Your arguments basically consist of"maybe your wrong" or "your wrong because I say your wrong". Your discussions and positions add no value to me on this forum and apparently mine fail to provide adequate value for you. So let us end our interactions.
you might want to re-read my posts. i provide some good points about the way the roster looks now. you can't be serious to think you can solve our scoring chances by adding more "tough guys". which is basically your main point. we didn't lose to the islanders, montreal, toronto, philadelphia, etc. because we weren't tough. we lost because we don't have enough finishers/skill.

we got neil, smith, dd, job, greening and to a lesser extent daug which is basically half the team. there is no room for the usual names you spew like lebrie.

and i know you are not quoting my posts in your post because i know the difference between your and you're.

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03-06-2013, 03:25 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
It seems to me that Murray & Maclean are slowly building a bigger tougher team by the guys that I think will eventually be on the roster over the next few yrs. What we don't have is a legitimate heavyweight enforcer & there is lots of debate whether we need one or not. I'm in favour of it as long as we have guys like Orr, Boyle, Renaldo & Lucic in our division/conference & in the league.

This is what I mean by Ottawa being big enough & tough enough already & may only need a part time enforcer but as I said even that is debatable.

Greening - Spezza - Michalek are all big & difficult to play against.

Silfverberg - Zibanejad - Stone are also good sized players & Stone is has some toughness.

Z. Smith - JOB - Neil are tough & difficult to play against & have decent size.

Bishop - Lehner - we even have some size & toughness in net.

Cowen, Methot, Wiercioch, Gryba, Phillips, Dzuirzynski & Grant all bring some good size & all are tough enough & a few of them will drop them when needed. We also have Blood, Kramer, Noesen, Ceci, Sdao etc... coming who all have decent size & Sdao may have heavyweight enforcer potential. So it seems they are building a bigger tougher team.
Do you have a heavyweight enforcer in mind? There aren't a lot out there and there aren't many that can still take a regular shift in this league. I think it is more likely that we pick up another Neil kind of player. A guy who can take a regular shift but can also fight some of the heavies' if needed.

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03-06-2013, 03:25 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
It seems to me that Murray & Maclean are slowly building a bigger tougher team by the guys that I think will eventually be on the roster over the next few yrs. What we don't have is a legitimate heavyweight enforcer & there is lots of debate whether we need one or not. I'm in favour of it as long as we have guys like Orr, Boyle, Renaldo & Lucic in our division/conference & in the league.

This is what I mean by Ottawa being big enough & tough enough already & may only need a part time enforcer but as I said even that is debatable.

Greening - Spezza - Michalek are all big & difficult to play against.

Silfverberg - Zibanejad - Stone are also good sized players & Stone is has some toughness.

Z. Smith - JOB - Neil are tough & difficult to play against & have decent size.

Bishop - Lehner - we even have some size & toughness in net.

Cowen, Methot, Wiercioch, Gryba, Phillips, Dzuirzynski & Grant all bring some good size & all are tough enough & a few of them will drop them when needed. We also have Blood, Kramer, Noesen, Ceci, Sdao etc... coming who all have decent size & Sdao may have heavyweight enforcer potential. So it seems they are building a bigger tougher team.
thanks for reinforcing my point, except for the enforcer part. no need for that. we got neil, smith etc.

we got plenty of size and grit. you add some skill, speed, smarts that come in smaller sizes (condra, petersson, prince, jgp, amongst others) and you got a good mix for a winner.

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03-06-2013, 03:47 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Bruiser View Post
Do you have a heavyweight enforcer in mind? There aren't a lot out there and there aren't many that can still take a regular shift in this league. I think it is more likely that we pick up another Neil kind of player. A guy who can take a regular shift but can also fight some of the heavies' if needed.
I don't have a guy in mind although I liked McGratton but he is in Calgary now. I wouldn't mind having a part time enforcer who only plays in certain games as a temporary fix. I would replace Daugavins with him on the roster. The guy you keep mentioning would be fine if he is tough enough to hold his own against some of the heavyweights in our division/conference. But I wouldn't give up very much to get him either. It will be interesting how Kramer & Sdao develop but they could be a ways away too.

My idea has been & continues to be to trade for a Dylan McIlrath, Zack Kassian or Tom Wilson kind of player who is young & can play a regular shift. I would be willing to trade a number of guys who IMO have no future in Ottawa in a package with a good prospect like Puempel for a good young enforcer type player. But then again we could wait for Sdao he could be ready sooner since he is older & has spent the last four yrs in college. Any idea how good a fighter he is? There are some pretty good fighters in our division/conference.

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03-06-2013, 03:57 PM
  #319
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I don't have a guy in mind although I liked McGratton but he is in Calgary now. I wouldn't mind having a part time enforcer who only plays in certain games as a temporary fix. I would replace Daugavins with him on the roster. The guy you keep mentioning would be fine if he is tough enough to hold his own against some of the heavyweights in our division/conference. But I wouldn't give up very much to get him either. It will be interesting how Kramer & Sdao develop but they could be a ways away too.

My idea has been & continues to be to trade for a Dylan McIlrath, Zack Kassian or Tom Wilson kind of player who is young & can play a regular shift. I would be willing to trade a number of guys who IMO have no future in Ottawa in a package with a good prospect like Puempel for a good young enforcer type player. But then again we could wait for Sdao he could be ready sooner since he is older & has spent the last four yrs in college. Any idea how good a fighter he is? There are some pretty good fighters in our division/conference.
so i'm assuming neil and smith are gone from the roster in your scenario.

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03-06-2013, 04:00 PM
  #320
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thanks for reinforcing my point, except for the enforcer part. no need for that. we got neil, smith etc.

we got plenty of size and grit. you add some skill, speed, smarts that come in smaller sizes (condra, petersson, prince, jgp, amongst others) and you got a good mix for a winner.
Whats a little funny here is that I don't like any of the players you have suggested we add to the lineup. I think Petersson is destined to play in Europe, Condra to be traded, JGP to be a career minor leaguer & Prince could be the one guy that could play somewhere in the NHL, just not Ottawa. I prefer Noesen, Puempel, Stone, Grant, Ceci, Maidens & Hoffman.

While Neil has the heart of a lion & will fight anyone IMO he is out of his league (size wise) when he fights guys like Orr, Engelland, Lucic & Smith is a midleweight at best. Would we really miss Daugavins if we used his roster spot for a heavyweight enforcer? I don't think so. But I would prefer a young big tough guy who can also play every shift like a Tom Wilson & we may have one in Sdao, we'll see I guess. Chara & Lucic are perfect examples of heavyweights who can play, McQuaid is pretty tough young guy too, Boston has a pretty tough roster.

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03-06-2013, 04:15 PM
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I don't have a guy in mind although I liked McGratton but he is in Calgary now. I wouldn't mind having a part time enforcer who only plays in certain games as a temporary fix. I would replace Daugavins with him on the roster. The guy you keep mentioning would be fine if he is tough enough to hold his own against some of the heavyweights in our division/conference. But I wouldn't give up very much to get him either. It will be interesting how Kramer & Sdao develop but they could be a ways away too.

My idea has been & continues to be to trade for a Dylan McIlrath, Zack Kassian or Tom Wilson kind of player who is young & can play a regular shift. I would be willing to trade a number of guys who IMO have no future in Ottawa in a package with a good prospect like Puempel for a good young enforcer type player. But then again we could wait for Sdao he could be ready sooner since he is older & has spent the last four yrs in college. Any idea how good a fighter he is? There are some pretty good fighters in our division/conference.
Sdao mauled players in the USHL, but it still remains to be seen what he can do at the AHL or NHL level. Most players who fight regularly in the AHL or NHL spend a lot of time refining their fighting skills; many also train boxing and/or mma. Yablonski, who played for Bingo a few years back, was a 6x golden gloves boxer and a mma fighter. So chucking hay makers could get him in trouble if he fights someone who actually trains.

I am also not a big advocate of relying on a defenseman to be the primary enforcer. I am ahppy to have guys like Cowen, Gryba, Methot, Borowiecki and Sdao being willing to drop the gloves to defend their team mates but I don't want any of them taking on the regular policing duties. With only being able to dress 6 d men, it really hurts if you are losing one of them in the box for 5+ minutes a game, or nearly every game. Therefore I am much more of an advocate of having a 4th liner take over the primary enforcing role.

A lot of the more reputable enforcers or enforcer type of players are either out of the league or on their way out because they are on the wrong side of 30. Most true enforcers lack sufficient skill to play in the NHL; most of them have terrible hockey sense and can't make or receive passes or have no accuracy with their shot. They then become useful only for fighting which in some sense hurts the team because the coach has to manage their minutes.

I personally think the best option is to bring in another Neil type of player. The best options would be to target a player like Neil who has similar or more upside. Players like Derek Dorsett, Cal Clutterbuck, Kyle Clifford, Wayne Simmonds, David Clarkson, Scott Hartnell and Curtiss Glencross come to mind.

Another option would be to provide some enforcing assistance to take some of the pressure off of Neil. Neil brings a lot of value to this team and he is at his best when he doesn't have to worry about being the primary enforcer. He has played some of his best hockey when we have had either McGrattan or Carkner on the team. Therefore their is a bit of need to provide some enforcing assistance because it allows Neil to play to his full potential. In this case my recommendation would be Pierre Cedric Labrie. Labrie actually has a bit of hockey skill and can be a very effective player when he is on his game. He is also a solid agitator which is something that this organization lacks. Labrie basically brings a similar skill set as Neil to the table and IMO he compares well with Shawn Thornton.

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03-06-2013, 04:36 PM
  #322
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It seems like some sens fans would actually be disappointed if we had 2 Chris Neil's out there. Or they think it would be redundant. I guess some sens fans just undervalue what Neil brings to the table.

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03-06-2013, 04:50 PM
  #323
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Team toughness = the way Chara mauled Emelin after he hit Seguin.

We kind of have that...Alfie crosschecking Rinaldo in the face?

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03-06-2013, 05:25 PM
  #324
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so i'm assuming neil and smith are gone from the roster in your scenario.
No, why would you say that? There isn't room on my roster for guys like Latendresse, Condra, Daugavins, Benoit, Regin & Da Costa at this time. And I would like to see a few of these guys moved for a peice they need. There is room for Gryba, Wiercioch, DD, Zibanejad, Stone etc ....

I like players who have skill but can also defend themselves like Perry, Ladd, Simmons, Stewart, Kane, Iginla, Hartnell etc... These are guys who can put a lot of points up & yet can also defend themselves. I hope Mark Stone will be that kind of a player & Noesen as well.

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03-06-2013, 05:27 PM
  #325
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I don't have a guy in mind although I liked McGratton but he is in Calgary now. I wouldn't mind having a part time enforcer who only plays in certain games as a temporary fix. I would replace Daugavins with him on the roster. ... It will be interesting how Kramer & Sdao develop but they could be a ways away too.

My idea has been & continues to be to trade for a Dylan McIlrath, Zack Kassian or Tom Wilson kind of player who is young & can play a regular shift...
I like Tom Wilson. He is big with a mean streak. IMO we need a big mean sheepdog to keep the weasels like Cooke off of our Swedish sheep. This is not an issue of "team toughness" (going to the net/corners & fighting back when challenged), but employing a real mean sheepdog to keep the weasels in line. The NHL's lack of response on Karlsson's injury & Brad Richards recent headshot underscores the problem (poor officiating & no meaningful consequences for cheapshots).

We still need team toughness as well, but that is another issue.

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