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Old
03-04-2013, 07:31 PM
  #176
BronYrAur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
Read the last sentence. 1-0 shootout wins are so rare (and let's be honest, they're incredibly stupid too) that they shouldn't even be considered.

I wasn't aware it was "absurd" to suggest that goals and assists play a much more important role in the game of hockey than faceoff wins.
Apparently that's reaching, though! I am ridiculous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by massivegoonery View Post
By Bron's reasoning, the less frequently events occur, the more they should count. Just like Toews should be considered a better player than Kane this year because he theoretically could have won an offensive zone faceoff that would lead to players other than himself getting a point.
Of course goals are more important than faceoffs. But all I am trying to illustrate is that goal scoring is unpredictable for most players. Luck & playing time play a large role in it.

I don't want to "overstate" the importance of faceoffs, but they should also not be understated. Toews has won 87 more draws than he has lost in 22 games, winning faceoffs at a 60% clip.

http://statsportsconsulting.com/main...lysis12-12.pdf

This is a good paper published last year on the value of a faceoff. 76 more faceoff wins than losses is good for about 1 GD. So Toews theoretically Toews' faceoff winning has lead to an extra goal+. Obviously doesn't make up the difference between he & Kane's point totals but I'm just illustrating a point.

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03-04-2013, 07:51 PM
  #177
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So wait, assuming a guy wins a Dave Bolland-esque 45% of his faceoffs (and thus goes 45-55 every 100 faceoffs), he costs the team one goal per every 765 faceoffs?

Trade everyone

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Old
03-04-2013, 08:03 PM
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BronYrAur View Post
Explain?

I have explained my argument. Everyone else just says...ZOMG Kaner!1

Yeah he's great passer, scorer....but Toews has always been the better player. Suddenly Kane has more points through 22 games and people want to say he's MVP. Fine, but that's a ridiculously small sample to judge players on.

Just like when people wanted to trade Kane last year when he had a "down" year. Well, he was something like top 15-20 in the NHL in even-strength points...

Kane is simply not a two-way player and he doesn't take faceoffs. Those are two very large elements of the game that Toews excels in.
The conversation is about who's been our best player to date.

Your arguing a point - Toews is more important overall going forward - that nobody else brought up.

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03-04-2013, 08:30 PM
  #179
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Ok...point taken.

I just think it gets obnoxious around here because when Kane isn't producing like he is this year, he should be traded, but when the goals are going in....he's the best player on the team. :shakeshead

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03-04-2013, 08:31 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by theaub View Post
So wait, assuming a guy wins a Dave Bolland-esque 45% of his faceoffs (and thus goes 45-55 every 100 faceoffs), he costs the team one goal per every 765 faceoffs?

Trade everyone
Bolland probably costs the team 3 goals over a season. One goal per 76 faceoffs (probably a range between 70-80 or so)....

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03-04-2013, 08:42 PM
  #181
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Bolland should just try cheating on faceoffs much more. Would probably increase his own FO% and Sharp would take the rest when he is thrown out. Win/win.

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03-04-2013, 08:52 PM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BronYrAur View Post
Ok...point taken.

I just think it gets obnoxious around here because when Kane isn't producing like he is this year, he should be traded, but when the goals are going in....he's the best player on the team. :shakeshead
I've actually been quite consistent in saying that he's the best player on the team since his rookie year. Nobody seemed to have a problem crowning Hossa the best player in the universe when he did his five game beast mode run at the beginning of the year, or his seven game run at the end of last year.

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03-04-2013, 09:07 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BronYrAur View Post
Ok...point taken.

I just think it gets obnoxious around here because when Kane isn't producing like he is this year, he should be traded, but when the goals are going in....he's the best player on the team. :shakeshead
I totally agree. For the record, I take the captain 11 times out of ten if I'm starting a franchise.

I do have a small quibble with people getting upset with Kane turning the puck over. Cute drop pass at the blue line? Shaw needs to get that deep. Kane? You let a top 5 in the league playmaker do his thing. Yes, it won't always work. Yes, it'll burn you occasionally. He's also instant offense and can win a game single handedly.

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Old
03-04-2013, 09:36 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
I do have a small quibble with people getting upset with Kane turning the puck over. Cute drop pass at the blue line? Shaw needs to get that deep. Kane? You let a top 5 in the league playmaker do his thing. Yes, it won't always work. Yes, it'll burn you occasionally. He's also instant offense and can win a game single handedly.
Yup agree with this. Kane is a like a true 10 in soccer, you let him do his thing. The small downside of the giveaways is more than offset by the space he creates on the ice.

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03-04-2013, 10:01 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
I totally agree. For the record, I take the captain 11 times out of ten if I'm starting a franchise.

I do have a small quibble with people getting upset with Kane turning the puck over. Cute drop pass at the blue line? Shaw needs to get that deep. Kane? You let a top 5 in the league playmaker do his thing. Yes, it won't always work. Yes, it'll burn you occasionally. He's also instant offense and can win a game single handedly.
He can still make space and create offense while being smart with the puck. His fiddling w/ the puck at the opponents' blue line is one of his habits he never seems to break so I guess you have to live with it. But you'd prefer not to. And it's something he can improve while also maintaining his great offensive skill. And he certainly has improved it significantly since his rookie year.

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03-04-2013, 10:06 PM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BronYrAur View Post
He can still make space and create offense while being smart with the puck. His fiddling w/ the puck at the opponents' blue line is one of his habits he never seems to break so I guess you have to live with it. But you'd prefer not to. And it's something he can improve while also maintaining his great offensive skill. And he certainly has improved it significantly since his rookie year.
You don't Hitchcock Kane. You just don't. He's a 100 point forward. You don't reign that in on a team built like ours.

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Old
03-04-2013, 10:11 PM
  #187
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Hockey Prospectus' player rankings have Kane ranked as the 3rd best skater in the league this season as of Feb 24th behind Sidney Crosby & John Tavares. Toews didn't rank in the top 10.

http://hockeyprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1463

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Old
03-04-2013, 11:10 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Hawks82 View Post
Hockey Prospectus' player rankings have Kane ranked as the 3rd best skater in the league this season as of Feb 24th behind Sidney Crosby & John Tavares. Toews didn't rank in the top 10.

http://hockeyprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1463
Their metric is mostly just reflective of points scored.

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Old
03-05-2013, 05:21 AM
  #189
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can't really take it seriously with Tavares being #2 only behing Crosby. Nothing against Tavares, I really like him but he's no Stamkos or Malkin or even Toews

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Old
03-05-2013, 09:06 AM
  #190
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Tavares ahead of Stamkos? Not even looking at their list.

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