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Old
03-04-2013, 05:01 PM
  #801
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Im about as far from jack edwards as possible, I still laught about the pouliot quote.

You can say that the hit did not merit retribution, Chara disagreed and I can see a case for why he did it.

And if you are the type of fan that thinks its okay for players to take liberties on teamates ( and talented ones at that) and that you are going to get them on the scoreboard, I'm releived we dont skate together.

The notion that chara acted improperly is based exclusively on the misplaced notion that players have the expectation that they can be perceived to have taken liberties against an opponent ( irrespective of the extend of actualy damage) and then get to say " no thank's, I'm not really interested in fighting". This has never happened, everyone knows that if it is perceived you have committed a transgression, that if someone comes calling you either answer or take a beating.
So he took a beating. I don't think anyone would disagree with you, least of all Emelin. Chara acted like Chara. Whether he acted "improperly" or not (within the context of the unwritten Man Code of hockey) is of no importance. What is of the utmost importance is he let his temper take him out of the game for 17 mins. and that's pretty much why they lost.

Oh, and by the way - Emelin's crosscheck on Seguin is the kind of play that happens 20 times a game. Was it a penalty? Sure - the ref missed it. But to assert that he is obliged to drop the gloves after that kind of play is ridiculous.

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03-04-2013, 05:19 PM
  #802
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
are you serious ? With a cage you dont have to worry about high sticks, fights ( who is going to drop their gloves to punch metal?) and even two guy who hit face to face the guy without the cage will come out on the short end every time. imagine is gys like kaletta or ott could wear a full cage, what stops them from running wild ?

The game had inherant risks, emelin and every other player could get hit in the face with a puck, or in the throat like Mccleary. The rules say you cant wear a cage unless it is temporary. If emelin cant play under those conditions, he shouldnt play as opposed to thinking that an exception should be made for him.
Aren't those also valid for visors? They reduce the impact of high sticks, it's an advantage in a fight. That's why starting a fight with a visor brings an additional penalty. I'm sure if he had a cage and started a fight there would be reprecussions, probably a suspension.

Taking penalties and hurting your team are the reasons Kaletta and Orr don't run wild all the time. It has nothing to do with with fear of fights. Hell Ott doesn't even wear a visor which would offer some protection.

Exceptions are made all the time. Having metal plates in your head is a valid reason to have an exception made. By your logic Chara shouldn't play either because the NHL made an exception and allowed him to have a longer stick than allowed by the rules.

There are no rules saying it has to be temporary and like I said any complaints would be handled by Bettman and I doubt he would risk a lawsuit by forbidding a player from wearing protective equipment proscribed by a doctor. Especially when that equipped is already allowed at times.

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03-04-2013, 05:20 PM
  #803
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Originally Posted by Poulet Kostopoulos View Post
I have no problem with what Chara did as long as he gets penalized severely. Any player going after another player to basically physically assault him should be severely penalized. Given that it cost them the match, I think Chara will think twice before doing that again.

But I agree: for a crosscheck, that was an over-the-top retaliation.
17 minutes is not severe enough ? I dont know anyone who is arguing with what he got, some people are saying he shouldnt have done it but if someone has said that he did not deserve the instigator or the misconduct, I must have missed it.

or by penalized do you mean suspended ? Because if you do your advocating a suspension for an act that probably 8/10 captains would act in the same manner.

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03-04-2013, 05:25 PM
  #804
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17 minutes is not severe enough ? I dont know anyone who is arguing with what he got, some people are saying he shouldnt have done it but if someone has said that he did not deserve the instigator or the misconduct, I must have missed it.

or by penalized do you mean suspended ? Because if you do your advocating a suspension for an act that probably 8/10 captains would act in the same manner.
First off the refs made a mistake and it should have been 19min at a minimum. 2min for charging/obstruction, then 2min instigating (Pushing him when he was down), 10min misconduct and 5 for fighting.

The initial charge could easily have been a 5min major as well. Skating halfway across the ice to hit someone who hasn't touched the puck in over a minute in order to get revenge. Sounds like it should be more than a 2min penalty doesn't it?

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03-04-2013, 05:27 PM
  #805
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Can't find this in the rules.
the rules say in response to injury and I presume you could try to wear it forever but the other team can dispute it. I certainly would. I think that emelin is in a precarious position, his face plates are not an injury, they predispose him to getting re-injured but I dont see it as an injury. but I dont know if anyone has ever lodged a complaint with the league about a guy wearing a shield.

There are limits as to what you can and cant wear on the ice, the league. if he needs to wear a sheild to play from here on out, he shouldnt be playing.

I also dont buy the " he could get hurt" notion, guys are expected to do things all the time that put then in a precarious position ( finishing the checks, blocking shots) that's just part of the game.

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03-04-2013, 05:36 PM
  #806
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First off the refs made a mistake and it should have been 19min at a minimum. 2min for charging/obstruction, then 2min instigating (Pushing him when he was down), 10min misconduct and 5 for fighting.

The initial charge could easily have been a 5min major as well. Skating halfway across the ice to hit someone who hasn't touched the puck in over a minute in order to get revenge. Sounds like it should be more than a 2min penalty doesn't it?
meh, the charge and instigating go hand in hand in my book. emelin deserved at least a pair so if you want to go 5/17 or 7/19 is no skin off my back.

I dont think pushing a player when he is down is instigating and it was about as much as charge as it was a spear, certainly not a charging major. to me it was clear that chara intended to drop them, nothing more.

as to the argument that this is a type of stick work that happens 20 times a game, mabey it does. but if it were to happen to say Galchenyuk or gionta, I suspect a lot of people would be singing a completely different tune.

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03-04-2013, 05:39 PM
  #807
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Love Emelin, so happy he is doing well here

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03-04-2013, 05:57 PM
  #808
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take fighting out of the game? really?

great fight, chara did the right thing, as did emelin. +rep to both players.

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03-04-2013, 05:58 PM
  #809
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
meh, the charge and instigating go hand in hand in my book. emelin deserved at least a pair so if you want to go 5/17 or 7/19 is no skin off my back.

I dont think pushing a player when he is down is instigating and it was about as much as charge as it was a spear, certainly not a charging major. to me it was clear that chara intended to drop them, nothing more.

as to the argument that this is a type of stick work that happens 20 times a game, mabey it does. but if it were to happen to say Galchenyuk or gionta, I suspect a lot of people would be singing a completely different tune.
I think Emelin should've gotten a penalty. The refs either missed it or let it go. 7/19 is not the same as 5/17 because Chara is more important to his team than Emelin is so the longer they both serve the better it is for the Habs.

Penalties can't transform from one penalty to another. The ref raised his arm as soon as Chara hit Emelin. So he clearly has an obstruction or charge on the books. Then 5s later there is the fight between the two and the refs decide Chara instigated it. Look at it like this, if Boston had control of the puck at the time of the hit, the whistle would've been blown for the initial call before the fight starts. Then the fight breaks out and they give Chara the instigator, you can't stop play before a fight starts to give a player an instigator can you?

Personally I think the distance that Chara travelled to deliver the hit should be taken into account and makes it worth more than a minor. If Emelin doesn't get up because he fell awkwardly and is hurt, suddenly that is a 5 and a game with a hearing. I think it's stupid to make your decision based on injury, but that's the way the NHL works so I'm not surprised it wasn't a major.

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03-04-2013, 06:16 PM
  #810
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I think Emelin should've gotten a penalty. The refs either missed it or let it go. 7/19 is not the same as 5/17 because Chara is more important to his team than Emelin is so the longer they both serve the better it is for the Habs.

Penalties can't transform from one penalty to another. The ref raised his arm as soon as Chara hit Emelin. So he clearly has an obstruction or charge on the books. Then 5s later there is the fight between the two and the refs decide Chara instigated it. Look at it like this, if Boston had control of the puck at the time of the hit, the whistle would've been blown for the initial call before the fight starts. Then the fight breaks out and they give Chara the instigator, you can't stop play before a fight starts to give a player an instigator can you?

Personally I think the distance that Chara travelled to deliver the hit should be taken into account and makes it worth more than a minor. If Emelin doesn't get up because he fell awkwardly and is hurt, suddenly that is a 5 and a game with a hearing. I think it's stupid to make your decision based on injury, but that's the way the NHL works so I'm not surprised it wasn't a major.
i have zero problem thinking that the amount of the penalty that chara was going to get was completely immaterial. he was going to go fight emelin ( whether emelin wanted to or not) and then deal with the aftermath. Was he enraged or just protecting a teamate ? I dont know but if it were subban bouillion kaberle or the pope that had sticked seguin, then chara was gonna fight them. And this isn't some type of crazed dino ciccarelli stick swinging thing, I'm sure that Chara gets a lot worse stick work than seguin did every game but he does not wig out and ryan white guys. but if you take liberties with skilled boston players, you can now know what to expect. in terms of fighting, it was actually better that it was chara who is huge and strong but not a great fighter. If it was thorton , mcquaid or lucic that got to him first, I suspect he would have faired dramatically less well. the notion that you wait for some other time to exact retribution ( either legally or not) is also antithetical to the way the game should be played. if guys have to answer, they have to answer right away.

When its clear guy intends to fight a guy, I think adding on things like interference and charging is a little ticky tacky, and I'm glad it doesnt usually happen. if they would have blown the play dead after the first collision, I'm still not sure it makes any material difference, Chara was gonna go.

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03-04-2013, 06:25 PM
  #811
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Oh, and by the way - Emelin's crosscheck on Seguin is the kind of play that happens 20 times a game. Was it a penalty? Sure - the ref missed it. But to assert that he is obliged to drop the gloves after that kind of play is ridiculous.
so the next time someone takes a run at gallchenyuk and sticks out a knee ala taylor hall and misses your going to be leading the "turn the other cheek" pack because really no one got hurt ?

Seguin is way more valuable to the bruins than Gally is to the habs right now. If you take liberties with skill players your right to refuse goes away. emelin isnt a lady byng candidate and you have a third year player with all of 50 PIM's. this wasnt an accident where the two collided in center ice, Emelin cross checked a talent player hard enough to break his stick. In what universe does he get to skate to the bench to end his shift ?

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03-04-2013, 06:59 PM
  #812
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I must have been sleeping for a while, in what era of the NHL can a player ( irrespective of his "reputation") crosscheck an opposing teams young star who NEVER fights, and thinks he should be able to simply skate to the bench to end his shift ?

Either you are for players standing up for teamates or you are not. If you are not, I seriously question how well you understand the game. Saying that you want players ( especially a captain) to stand up for teamates, except when its against the habs, or a guy who has plates in his face, is transparently hipprocritical.

Its not like Chara is a spot picker, if it was markov or subban who did what emelin does, I dont think it changes Chara's actions one iota.

I get a lot of people dont like chara, but holding something against him that you should HOPE a canadien would do in the same circumstance is not logically defensible.
So why didnt Chara go up and fight John Scott when he knocked the **** out of Thornton?

Because Chara is just like the rest of the Bruins. Opportunists.

Chara had the Bear replaced on his sweater that night with a kitty cat. And you know what I mean by that.

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03-04-2013, 07:09 PM
  #813
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
When its clear guy intends to fight a guy, I think adding on things like interference and charging is a little ticky tacky, and I'm glad it doesnt usually happen. if they would have blown the play dead after the first collision, I'm still not sure it makes any material difference, Chara was gonna go.
It's not a question of whether Chara is going to go or not. The ref discerned a penalty and then because there was a fight decided he would no longer call the initial penalty which is a terrible decision and clearly wrong. If you cross-check I guy in the head and then drop the gloves and start punching him we should just ignore the cross-check, that's ridiculous.

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03-04-2013, 07:18 PM
  #814
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It's not a question of whether Chara is going to go or not. The ref discerned a penalty and then because there was a fight decided he would no longer call the initial penalty which is a terrible decision and clearly wrong. If you cross-check I guy in the head and then drop the gloves and start punching him we should just ignore the cross-check, that's ridiculous.
Cross checking and interferance are different. Chara intended to fight emelin, when he made the bee line the instigator took care of the obstruction/interferance. How could you get an instigator without getting an interference call?

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03-04-2013, 07:23 PM
  #815
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Mabey because Thornton can handle himself? If you are surprised that a skilled third year talent player is gonna get more time under charas wing then thorton, you shouldn't be.

I also missed the part where seguin consented to getting crosschecked.

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03-04-2013, 08:09 PM
  #816
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Taking liberties? What a joke. I get worse checks than that in my rec league.

I'm not doubting that Seguin was in pain, but I'd blame his equipment/previous injury more than anything else. I'm sure we've all gotten a puck or slash or whatever when our equipment was just out of position or something like that (apart from that or prior injury, I can't think of any other reason why Tyler would be in such agony). You can get hurt from seemingly innocent plays.

Good non-call by the refs. You have to give Emelin props for dropping them against the biggest player that's ever played in the NHL. Especially given that he has metal plates holding his skull together. Brave SOB.

Oh, and Alex is slowly putting up the points: 4 in the last 3 games.

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03-04-2013, 08:32 PM
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And to think that Sequin returned to the game! Maybe someone should have slashed Chara in the back of his neck at least three times after the infamous hit on Pacioretty.

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03-04-2013, 08:33 PM
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Taking liberties? What a joke. I get worse checks than that in my rec league.

I'm not doubting that Seguin was in pain, but I'd blame his equipment/previous injury more than anything else. I'm sure we've all gotten a puck or slash or whatever when our equipment was just out of position or something like that (apart from that or prior injury, I can't think of any other reason why Tyler would be in such agony). You can get hurt from seemingly innocent plays.

Good non-call by the refs. You have to give Emelin props for dropping them against the biggest player that's ever played in the NHL. Especially given that he has metal plates holding his skull together. Brave SOB.

Oh, and Alex is slowly putting up the points: 4 in the last 3 games.
Who?

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03-04-2013, 08:47 PM
  #819
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Who?
Alexei Emelin

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03-04-2013, 08:48 PM
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Alexei Emelin
How dumb am I man

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03-04-2013, 09:06 PM
  #821
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How dumb am I man
lol no worries.

I watched the video of the "cross-check" again and I'm reminded of the Ribeiro incident. Seguin just drops like a stone from a shove to the torso. LAME

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03-04-2013, 09:06 PM
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meh, the charge and instigating go hand in hand in my book. emelin deserved at least a pair so if you want to go 5/17 or 7/19 is no skin off my back.

I dont think pushing a player when he is down is instigating and it was about as much as charge as it was a spear, certainly not a charging major. to me it was clear that chara intended to drop them, nothing more.

as to the argument that this is a type of stick work that happens 20 times a game, mabey it does. but if it were to happen to say Galchenyuk or gionta, I suspect a lot of people would be singing a completely different tune.
Who cares about the rule book of Sandysan??? Charing and Instigating are two different penalties.

If you high stick someone in the face, and while he's down (or on his way back up) you get in his face, push him around to the point where's you're instigating him into a fight, are you gonna say that ''meh, the high stick go hand in hand''??
That's the dumbest crap I've ever heard.

Chara skated from mid ice and gave Emelin a check, they usually call it a charge if the player's skate leave the ice before the contact, but at 12 feet Chara will never do that. Still, skating from meters away with one intent only can be called as interference or charging. That alone was a penalty, and you even see the ref raise his hands right then and there. That's before any fight has started.
So even the refs thought it was a penalty.

After that, Chara stays over Emelin, shoving him around to the point where he has no choice but to drop and defend himself (the refs didn't even come in to prevent the fight). That's instigating.

If you can't make a difference between both, you really shouldn't be discussing what's a penalty or not.

They called the instigating, but the refs had raised their hands before for the interference. Two different penalties should have been called on Chara.

As for Emelin, was it a penalty? I don't think so. It was a routine crosscheck, you see a million of them during games, just look at the battles in front of the net. It seriously happens on every play with players in front of the net.
But if you want that to be a penalty, then you can make a case that Seguin embellished it as well.

You think people would be singing a different tune if it happened to one of our players? Well, Desharnais got absolutely flattened in front of the net by a McQuaid crosscheck right after the MaxPac goal. Nobody whined about it in the media, or here.

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03-04-2013, 09:24 PM
  #823
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Who cares about the rule book of Sandysan??? Charing and Instigating are two different penalties.

If you high stick someone in the face, and while he's down (or on his way back up) you get in his face, push him around to the point where's you're instigating him into a fight, are you gonna say that ''meh, the high stick go hand in hand''??
That's the dumbest crap I've ever heard.

Chara skated from mid ice and gave Emelin a check, they usually call it a charge if the player's skate leave the ice before the contact, but at 12 feet Chara will never do that. Still, skating from meters away with one intent only can be called as interference or charging. That alone was a penalty, and you even see the ref raise his hands right then and there. That's before any fight has started.
So even the refs thought it was a penalty.

After that, Chara stays over Emelin, shoving him around to the point where he has no choice but to drop and defend himself (the refs didn't even come in to prevent the fight). That's instigating.

If you can't make a difference between both, you really shouldn't be discussing what's a penalty or not.

They called the instigating, but the refs had raised their hands before for the interference. Two different penalties should have been called on Chara.

As for Emelin, was it a penalty? I don't think so. It was a routine crosscheck, you see a million of them during games, just look at the battles in front of the net. It seriously happens on every play with players in front of the net.
But if you want that to be a penalty, then you can make a case that Seguin embellished it as well.

You think people would be singing a different tune if it happened to one of our players? Well, Desharnais got absolutely flattened in front of the net by a McQuaid crosscheck right after the MaxPac goal. Nobody whined about it in the media, or here.
1) If you check a guy to get him to drop the gloves or drop the gloves to grab a fist full of sweater, its not charging or holding, its a guy wanting to fight.

2) its not the refs job to break up fights, or the linesmen when two guys want to go. If emelin does not want to dance with chara, perhaps he shouldn't stick the bruins best forward.

3) deharnais is no seguin, and I've already said that I didn't like the hit on sub an or the cross check. If the have would have responded ( the way white did with that monster Fleischman) I'd be okay with that although we don't have a lot of choices to go with McQuaid.

4) I watch a lot of hockey, I don't see guys breaking sticks on guys 20 times a game but its nice to know that there are fans that are so fundamentally ignorant of the game that they think that a guy can cross check the teams best player and then politely decline the obligation to pay the piper. What's the weather like there in bizarro world?

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03-04-2013, 10:19 PM
  #824
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1) If you check a guy to get him to drop the gloves or drop the gloves to grab a fist full of sweater, its not charging or holding, its a guy wanting to fight.

2) its not the refs job to break up fights, or the linesmen when two guys want to go. If emelin does not want to dance with chara, perhaps he shouldn't stick the bruins best forward.

3) deharnais is no seguin, and I've already said that I didn't like the hit on sub an or the cross check. If the have would have responded ( the way white did with that monster Fleischman) I'd be okay with that although we don't have a lot of choices to go with McQuaid.

4) I watch a lot of hockey, I don't see guys breaking sticks on guys 20 times a game but its nice to know that there are fans that are so fundamentally ignorant of the game that they think that a guy can cross check the teams best player and then politely decline the obligation to pay the piper. What's the weather like there in bizarro world?

You've had your say.

It would be awesome for you to go back to your board.

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03-04-2013, 10:26 PM
  #825
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You've had your say.

It would be awesome for you to go back to your board.
I'm a habs fan, where should I go ?

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