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Old
03-04-2013, 12:30 PM
  #51
potsiev2
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Originally Posted by jml87 View Post
Ah yes, role players. Role players who scored 28 points in the playoffs and averaged 19 minutes of ice time every game. God, it's like people think these guys were third liners who road the coat tails to success.

And the future is brighter? The future is the same.

Flyers with Giroux at the top (2011-2012):
264 goals, 232 goals allowed

Flyers with Richards at the top (2008-2009):
264 goals, 238 goals allowed

What is the difference? These are the exact same numbers you've always been getting.
The difference is the flyers youth and future. Simmonds is developing into a nice power forward who causes havoc in front of the net. Voracek is looking like a legit 1st line winger. Schenn and couturier look like true 2nd and 3rd line centers. All early 20'... be objective

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03-04-2013, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by potsiev2 View Post
The difference is the flyers youth and future. Simmonds is developing into a nice power forward who causes havoc in front of the net. Voracek is looking like a legit 1st line winger. Schenn and couturier look like true 2nd and 3rd line centers. All early 20'... be objective
There's nothing more objective than a cup.

We traded for the right guy at the right time. If you want us to 'be objective,' take your own advice and look what Richards and Carter did during the cup run.

Flyers DID get younger and those players COULD make them better and get a cup in the near future. I don't see the need to 'win' a trade here, or why it can't be win-win (which is what this one looks like to me). Seems like all you're interested in doing is taking cheap shots (we're more knowledgeable because we won a cup? Get real. You forget how long the Kings have been a franchise), though, so why don't you see yourself to the door if you're not interested in logical discussion.

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03-04-2013, 12:52 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by potsiev2 View Post
richards and carter are both 28.... if you don't think the flyers future is brighter now with a 21,22,23,24 year old all contributing and progressing at the NHL level i question your sanity. The 2 buyouts could potentially correct the flyers mistakes but holmgren could always decide to mess that up again with a goalie like luongo. I realize that your kings won a Cup and with that comes an outlook of greater opinions and new found knowledge. The tampa bay lightning and carolina hurricanes fans once shared that same gift.
21,22,23,24 with a 33 year old goalie and the only reliable defenseman is 36 years old. By the time the young forwards are ready to contribute fully (and no, they're not there yet) the defense will require a full rebuild and Bryz may or may not be worth a damn. That's where the issue lies and why people think Flyers fans who downplay Richards' and Carter's importance are delusional.

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03-04-2013, 01:02 PM
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21,22,23,24 with a 33 year old goalie and the only reliable defenseman is 36 years old. By the time the young forwards are ready to contribute fully (and no, they're not there yet) the defense will require a full rebuild and Bryz may or may not be worth a damn. That's where the issue lies and why people think Flyers fans who downplay Richards' and Carter's importance are delusional.
Perfectly said.

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03-04-2013, 01:47 PM
  #55
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There's nothing more objective than a cup.

We traded for the right guy at the right time. If you want us to 'be objective,' take your own advice and look what Richards and Carter did during the cup run.

Flyers DID get younger and those players COULD make them better and get a cup in the near future. I don't see the need to 'win' a trade here, or why it can't be win-win (which is what this one looks like to me). Seems like all you're interested in doing is taking cheap shots (we're more knowledgeable because we won a cup? Get real. You forget how long the Kings have been a franchise), though, so why don't you see yourself to the door if you're not interested in logical discussion.

RIchards and Carter were key additions. I was never talking about winning a trade... i was making a statement that the flyers future is brighter then it was with richards and carter the year they were traded. Of course the trades worked out very well for the kings.

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03-04-2013, 02:00 PM
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21,22,23,24 with a 33 year old goalie and the only reliable defenseman is 36 years old. By the time the young forwards are ready to contribute fully (and no, they're not there yet) the defense will require a full rebuild and Bryz may or may not be worth a damn. That's where the issue lies and why people think Flyers fans who downplay Richards' and Carter's importance are delusional.
Richards and Carter are not d-men and don't play goalie... the depth the flyers acquired with these trades gives them better options going forward. What is hard to understand about that. Humor me and answer this... If your philly who do you want. Richards and Carter or Voracek,Couturier,Simmonds,Schenn,Cousins. It's ashame Holmgren went out and potentially ruined it with the signing of bryz but luckily he has a bail out option with these amnesty clauses. My point strictly refers to the value or carter and richards or simmonds,voracek,couturier,schenn,cousins from the flyers point of view. I'm not talking about who won a trade or how dumb holmgrens plan was. This is about the value or carter and richards vs the value of what they brought via a trade. I don't undervalue them one bit.

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03-04-2013, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by potsiev2 View Post
Richards and Carter are not d-men and don't play goalie... the depth the flyers acquired with these trades gives them better options going forward. What is hard to understand about that. Humor me and answer this... If your philly who do you want. Richards and Carter or Voracek,Couturier,Simmonds,Schenn,Cousins. It's ashame Holmgren went out and potentially ruined it with the signing of bryz but luckily he has a bail out option with these amnesty clauses. My point strictly refers to the value or carter and richards or simmonds,voracek,couturier,schenn,cousins from the flyers point of view. I'm not talking about who won a trade or how dumb holmgrens plan was. This is about the value or carter and richards vs the value of what they brought via a trade. I don't undervalue them one bit.
I think this is one of those cases where it's possible that both teams win a trade. The Kings won the Cup - the obvious ultimate goal, and have players signed at good cap hits for the long term. Barring injury, the Kings should remain competitive for years to come. With this deal, the Flyers gained some cap space for Homer to piss away; they also pushed their window of opportunity back a minimum of 3 to 4 years - which is why I brought up goaltending and defense. During that time frame, the goaltending and defense must be rebuilt. We'll have to wait and see if this latest version of the Flyers can make it to a Cup final in 4 or 5 years or if the Flyers go through yet another turnover in players in efforts to try to patch together a Cup team. Right now, they're a long way away. If you're fine with that, great. As a Flyers fan, I'm not. Not anymore.

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03-04-2013, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by potsiev2 View Post
The difference is the flyers youth and future. Simmonds is developing into a nice power forward who causes havoc in front of the net. Voracek is looking like a legit 1st line winger. Schenn and couturier look like true 2nd and 3rd line centers. All early 20'... be objective
Mike Richards 23
Jeff Carter 23
Joffrey Lupul 25
Scott Hartnell 26
Scottie Upshall 25
Claude Giroux 21

These are all young good to great offensive players that you had in 2008-2009. What are these present players going to do differently? Are they going to score more goals? That still leaves the same exact problem. I fail to see how this group is any different than the last group. Unless you are planning to trade these guys for defense and goaltending, then you just pressed the reset button.

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03-04-2013, 03:14 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by jml87 View Post
Mike Richards 23
Jeff Carter 23
Joffrey Lupul 25
Scott Hartnell 26
Scottie Upshall 25
Claude Giroux 21

These are all young good to great offensive players that you had in 2008-2009. What are these present players going to do differently? Are they going to score more goals? That still leaves the same exact problem. I fail to see how this group is any different than the last group. Unless you are planning to trade these guys for defense and goaltending, then you just pressed the reset button.

so if your philly you take 28 year old carter and richards or voracek 23, simmonds 24, couturier 21, schenn 22... Thats the options. I'm not going back 5 years ago or talking about holmgrens plan. I'm talking about returned assets for carter and richards.

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03-04-2013, 03:18 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by potsiev2 View Post
so if your philly you take 28 year old carter and richards or voracek 23, simmonds 24, couturier 21, schenn 22... Thats the options. I'm not going back 5 years ago or talking about holmgrens plan. I'm talking about returned assets for carter and richards.
Part of the returned assets is the cap space blown on Bryz

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03-04-2013, 03:37 PM
  #61
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The tampa bay lightning and carolina hurricanes fans once shared that same gift.
The Los Angeles Kings didn't share that gift dating back to 45 years when they first entered into the league.

Something to ponder, eh?


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03-04-2013, 04:08 PM
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so if your philly you take 28 year old carter and richards or voracek 23, simmonds 24, couturier 21, schenn 22... Thats the options. I'm not going back 5 years ago or talking about holmgrens plan. I'm talking about returned assets for carter and richards.
Carter and Richards were the future 5 years ago along with those others who were mentioned. Holmgren blew the cap space so badly with those front loaded contracts and he can't do that anymore. Teams also can't buy a Cup like in the pre-cap era. Now he has to come up with a way to stock the cupboard but there aren't many good players on the farm or in the feeder leagues, specifically no goalies or defencemen. We are losing Kimmo after next year so who do you think is going to be our #1 defenseman? Coburn? Mez? Grossman? LSchenn? None of these guys are close. Also, by that time Bryz will be 34. So while it's great that Giroux, Couts, BSchenn, Vora and Simmonds will be entering their prime - and I'm assuming we can keep them with a shrinking cap - our defence and goaltending will be in trouble. That's the whole point here, the Kings have a team that isn't relying on a group of really young guys and a group of really old guys. Not only that but many of these fowards aren't good defensive players so unless they figure that part of the game out, it's another problem. I don't have faith in Holmgren to address all these issues and do so quickly.

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03-04-2013, 04:09 PM
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so if your philly you take 28 year old carter and richards or voracek 23, simmonds 24, couturier 21, schenn 22... Thats the options. I'm not going back 5 years ago or talking about holmgrens plan. I'm talking about returned assets for carter and richards.
Ok, how about this. You can win the cup with Richards and Carter AND you can win the cup with Schenn, Simmonds, etc. However, you won't because you don't have any defense or goaltending. And yes, I take Carter and Richards cause they are more experienced and in their primes. But if I was Philly I would've gotten a goaltender 20 YEARS AGO and I wouldn't be signing over the hill players like Chris Pronger to ridiculous contracts which cripple the Flyers cap space.

For the record, I was a Flyers fan since as far back as I can remember, but I changed to the Kings when Richards was traded. I'm not going to continually root for a team that wastes its highly talented players time by continually destroying itself and not fixing an issue that everyone sees outside the blind Flyers management. Seeing how the media dumped all the blame on two players who were working their ***** off for Philadelphia plus how Ed Snider refuses to move out of a decade thirty years ago, was the last straw for me.

I said that Richards and Carter would win a cup if you put some defense and goaltending behind them and once they went to a team that had that defense, they helped the Kings win a Cup in one year. If Philly would've done the same, then they would've won there.

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03-04-2013, 04:56 PM
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Ok, how about this. You can win the cup with Richards and Carter AND you can win the cup with Schenn, Simmonds, etc. However, you won't because you don't have any defense or goaltending. And yes, I take Carter and Richards cause they are more experienced and in their primes. But if I was Philly I would've gotten a goaltender 20 YEARS AGO and I wouldn't be signing over the hill players like Chris Pronger to ridiculous contracts which cripple the Flyers cap space.

For the record, I was a Flyers fan since as far back as I can remember, but I changed to the Kings when Richards was traded. I'm not going to continually root for a team that wastes its highly talented players time by continually destroying itself and not fixing an issue that everyone sees outside the blind Flyers management. Seeing how the media dumped all the blame on two players who were working their ***** off for Philadelphia plus how Ed Snider refuses to move out of a decade thirty years ago, was the last straw for me.

I said that Richards and Carter would win a cup if you put some defense and goaltending behind them and once they went to a team that had that defense, they helped the Kings win a Cup in one year. If Philly would've done the same, then they would've won there.
So you're not a flyers fan anymore because of the mean media and the dealing of richards. Without sounding like a complete fraud you can't possibly consider yourself a true fan of anything except for mike richards. I don't claim the flyers are any closer to a cup now. What i said is the package of voracek,simmonds,couturier,schenn,cousins is better value then richards and carter and thats my opinion. Are the flyers stuck with bryz? not if they're willing to eat his salary and i'm sure ed snider is willing to dump 50 million if it means they can create cap space to try something better or what holmgren thinks is better. I hated the bryzgalov deal and i'll continue to as long as his cap hit is on this team (hopefully that changes in the offseason). I'll continue to stick with this team through the good and bad times and nothing can change that since i live and die by philly teams. This is more then my selfish wants and desires as it's in my blood and it's a bond between my family and friends. Being a true fan of a team that wins a championship is like nothing else for a true fan. I'm sure many Kings fans know exactly what i'm talking about. You buy the merchandise/DVDs and you remember exactly what your day consisted of when your team became champs. Nothing compares as a sports fan. It's ashame loyalty can change due to 1 individual. end of rant

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03-04-2013, 05:12 PM
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I would've preferred bernier over simmonds or schenn but i don't think the kings were willing to deal bernier. With that said i still take voracek,simmonds,schenn,couturier,cousins over richards and carter . The kings won a cup which in return makes them see things much differently. They won the cup because of the great defensive system and stud goaltending.
The Kings won because they added much needed forward depth. Their stud goalie and great defensive system, to which you assign all the credit, were so marvelous on their own it got them two straight first round exits.

The Kings needed guys like Richards and Carter because they weren't going anywhere with Kopitar's line as the only threat.

I understand Flyers fans talking up the future, and this trade could potentially work for Philadelphia in the long run. But really, you should get more young players if you trade away two stars who are in their prime. The flip side of that is you sacrificed some of the here-and-now.

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03-04-2013, 05:24 PM
  #66
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I'll armchair GM.. I've said this on the Flyers board a year ago and I still don't understand why the hell the GM traded away two top end forwards for more forwards. The Flyers don't seem to have a hard time scoring goals. I can understand the logic behind moving Richards and/or Carter if at the very least they took on a blue chip D prospect/player or two. Trading forwards for younger versions of the current forwards you already have makes zero sense when you have already have a young forward core and an aging defensive group (Pronger/Timmonen were the men at the time of the trade) and no one ready to step up and fill those roles.

My two cents, the Flyers should have done the Richards/Carter trades for defense and goaltending and they would probably be challenging for a Cup last year and this year. Instead they have an aging defense on the way out and an overpaid goalie who has not solved that issue. It just doesn't seem like there is a solid blue print in place for the direction they want to go. It is almost like they have two guys steering the same ship and maybe that is the case.

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03-04-2013, 05:28 PM
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My two cents, the Flyers should have done the Richards/Carter trades for defense and goaltending .
Part of trading them was freeing of the cap space to sign Bryz

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03-04-2013, 05:38 PM
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Part of trading them was freeing of the cap space to sign Bryz
That was a great use of cap space. Philly should have considered the fact that Bryzgalov's numbers were at least partly a product of playing defensive systems in both Anaheim and Phoenix. Mike Smith is perfect example of a goalie who played horribly in a offensive system and in Phoenix is being clouded by a defensively sound team/system. The opposite became true of Bryzgalov.

The Flyers organization needs to steer the ship in one direction. If I were the owner that just cut that $50m check or contract, I'd be telling the coach to figure out a way to make him useful again. The Kings had the exact same problem until Lombardi came in and made goaltending and defense a priority. It certainly has paid off.

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03-04-2013, 06:14 PM
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So you're not a flyers fan anymore because of the mean media and the dealing of richards. Without sounding like a complete fraud you can't possibly consider yourself a true fan of anything except for mike richards. I don't claim the flyers are any closer to a cup now. What i said is the package of voracek,simmonds,couturier,schenn,cousins is better value then richards and carter and thats my opinion. Are the flyers stuck with bryz? not if they're willing to eat his salary and i'm sure ed snider is willing to dump 50 million if it means they can create cap space to try something better or what holmgren thinks is better. I hated the bryzgalov deal and i'll continue to as long as his cap hit is on this team (hopefully that changes in the offseason). I'll continue to stick with this team through the good and bad times and nothing can change that since i live and die by philly teams. This is more then my selfish wants and desires as it's in my blood and it's a bond between my family and friends. Being a true fan of a team that wins a championship is like nothing else for a true fan. I'm sure many Kings fans know exactly what i'm talking about. You buy the merchandise/DVDs and you remember exactly what your day consisted of when your team became champs. Nothing compares as a sports fan. It's ashame loyalty can change due to 1 individual. end of rant
And now I'm not a true fan. How did I know this was the response I would get. Yes, you should continue to root for a team to the day of your death even if you do not agree with their business practices. It's not a matter of going through the 'bad times.' I have no problem going years without getting into the playoffs or downright sucking as long as I know they are actively trying to get better. I was born in 1987. I have never seen good times in Philadelphia outside of one championship in 2008. That's not why I'm not a Flyers fan anymore.

Why should I waste energy and money on a team who refuses to change and refuses to give the team what it needs to win. I could live if they went through a period where they didn't have goaltending, but they could've raised a goaltender from birth by now. They refuse to take that problem seriously. I went through the Lindros era, the Gagne era, and the Richards era. I will not root for that garbage anymore.

The Kings are exactly what I've always wanted in a hockey team. Developing young defenseman and goaltending and still having guys who can score. They barely made the playoffs last year, but even if they went out in the first round I'd still be a fan because I believe in this team and what they do. I'd rather be a traitor and believe in my team, then stay loyal and fake my enthusiasm supporting a management who will not change their philosophies despite the fact that they haven't won a cup in 35 years.

You may look at only the Flyers logo, but I remember all the guys who wasted their careers wearing that jersey cause the likes of Bobby Clarke and Ed Snider are so stuck in their stupid Broad Street Bullies mentality.

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03-04-2013, 08:07 PM
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So you're not a flyers fan anymore because of the mean media and the dealing of richards. Without sounding like a complete fraud you can't possibly consider yourself a true fan of anything except for mike richards. I don't claim the flyers are any closer to a cup now. What i said is the package of voracek,simmonds,couturier,schenn,cousins is better value then richards and carter and thats my opinion. Are the flyers stuck with bryz? not if they're willing to eat his salary and i'm sure ed snider is willing to dump 50 million if it means they can create cap space to try something better or what holmgren thinks is better. I hated the bryzgalov deal and i'll continue to as long as his cap hit is on this team (hopefully that changes in the offseason). I'll continue to stick with this team through the good and bad times and nothing can change that since i live and die by philly teams. This is more then my selfish wants and desires as it's in my blood and it's a bond between my family and friends. Being a true fan of a team that wins a championship is like nothing else for a true fan. I'm sure many Kings fans know exactly what i'm talking about. You buy the merchandise/DVDs and you remember exactly what your day consisted of when your team became champs. Nothing compares as a sports fan. It's ashame loyalty can change due to 1 individual. end of rant
I used to think like this but back in '74 I ditched the Leafs because I knew they would never amount to anything under Harold Ballard. I switched to the Flyers because of Bobby Clarke. Two years ago when the Flyers blew up the team, I knew I would have 2 teams to follow, LA and Philly but I prefer LA because their GM has vision and the owner doesn't meddle. Will I stay a Kings' fan forever? Who knows. I don't feel I owe any team or player loyalty and prefer to do what makes me happy. Nobody showed loyalty to the fans in the last 2 lockouts so why should I give it back?

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03-04-2013, 08:20 PM
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Flyers management has a very peculiar track record. It's like they can never take it to the next tier, it just looks they keep refreshing talent but not in other important places which makes them not contenders to this day. They need to fix the issues.

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03-04-2013, 08:25 PM
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I don't think any fan should tell another fan what team to root for, regardless of the sport.

Though, anyone who is not a fan of this:



is not sane in the membrane.

My $.02

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03-04-2013, 08:27 PM
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I don't think any fan should tell another fan what team to root for.

My $.02
My .02. It's more valuable that way.

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03-04-2013, 08:27 PM
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im a hawks fan now... PEACE!!!

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03-04-2013, 08:35 PM
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I personally never understood people following players rather than teams. But it happens quite a bit in all sports. I still follow players like JJ, Cammalleri, Lubo etc. but would never consider becoming active fans of their teams.

Watching the Kings win a championship last year was even more special because of everything we went through in years past.

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