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Old
03-04-2013, 09:45 PM
  #151
nameless1
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Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
I'll take MG but he's just an exec to me. If he makes too much mistakes, he's out.

Nonis doesn't get enough credit for this team.
Meh...
Nonis didn't do all that much.
His drafts were abysmal, and he traded high draft picks for over-the-hill veterans.
Really, other than Grabner and Raymond, there was nothing in the pipeline.

I know the argument that the core of the current team is basically what is left from the Nonis era, but I could also say that Nonis kept most of what Burke gave him, and he added Luongo, Edler, Hansen and Schneider.

Really, Nonis did give the team some valuable pieces, but he also inherited a lot of what he had from Burke, and after the lockout, he did nothing to improve the Canucks' future.
Our lack of depth right now has something to do with him, because many of the draft picks in his team should be playing and contributing right now.
I just don't think Nonis is that great of a GM.

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03-04-2013, 09:47 PM
  #152
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Grabner has more blocked shots than any Canucks forward. He averages 3 mins/game on the PK vs. Raymond's 0:45, has a better giveaway/takeaway ratio and is better at faceoffs. How is he one-dimensional if Raymond is not?
I was unaware of these stats. I guess my head is stuck in mud.

I suppose the reason is when he was with Vancouver he was very one-dimensional and a big reason I think he was traded from here then waived by Florida.

Do you think he's a more well-rounded player than Raymond or do you think he benefits from playing on a weak team giving him more opportunity?

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03-04-2013, 09:49 PM
  #153
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I was unaware of these stats. I guess my head is stuck in mud.

I suppose the reason is when he was with Vancouver he was very one-dimensional and a big reason I think he was traded from here then waived by Florida.

Do you think he's a more well-rounded player than Raymond or do you think he benefits from playing on a weak team giving him more opportunity?
A healthy, mason raymond is worth more than a healthy grabner IMO. Raymond had a 25 goal season, and he is on that pace again this year.

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03-04-2013, 09:51 PM
  #154
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I don't think it's a case of either/or. I thought it was a squandering of assets at the time of the trade. The response from people who disagreed with me amounted to "we have offense to spare" and "you have to overpay to get someone like Ballard". I hate being proven right in this case. A lot of it has to do with how Ballard seems to be a good person.

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03-04-2013, 09:51 PM
  #155
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Grabner has more blocked shots than any Canucks forward. He averages 3 mins/game on the PK vs. Raymond's 0:45, has a better giveaway/takeaway ratio and is better at faceoffs. How is he one-dimensional if Raymond is not?
I watched him play a couple of times.
Just because he plays on the PK does not mean he is a good defensive player.
He causes problems with his speed, but other than that, he can't really do all that much.
He is exciting, but he is really one-dimensional.

I thought about block shots.
I think it is just because he is so fast, he can get there in time.
Or it could be that he is so good at pressuring the defense that he blocks the shot because they can truly set it up.
Block shots is kind of like hits, because it is a very objective stat.
Every arena is a little different.

Raymond plays a 200 foot game.
He is in the right position defensively most of the time, and I see he uses his speed to play offense and defense.

Does Grabner really take that many face-offs?
I don't remember him taking that many.
If it is just a few per game, then it is not really a strength.

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Old
03-04-2013, 09:54 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by The Classless One View Post
Fabian Brunnstrom
Ahh yes.
The one and only.

Dallas was so excited when he scored a hat trick in his 1st season.

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Old
03-04-2013, 09:56 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nameless1 View Post
Does Grabner really take that many face-offs?
Not anywhere nearly enough to make any meaningful conclusions.

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03-04-2013, 09:58 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Crows View Post
A healthy, mason raymond is worth more than a healthy grabner IMO. Raymond had a 25 goal season, and he is on that pace again this year.
I don't want to fall into the either/or trap but Grabner has scored more and is on pace for more.

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03-04-2013, 09:59 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Not anywhere nearly enough to make any meaningful conclusions.
Thanks for the verification.

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03-04-2013, 09:59 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by nameless1 View Post
Does Grabner really take that many face-offs?
I don't remember him taking that many.
If it is just a few per game, then it is not really a strength.
Neither he nor Raymond will be taking FOs on a regular basis. And they shouldn't.

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Old
03-04-2013, 10:00 PM
  #161
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I don't want to fall into the either/or trap but Grabner has scored more and is on pace for more.
Grabner didn't break his back.

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03-04-2013, 10:01 PM
  #162
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I don't want to fall into the either/or trap but Grabner has scored more and is on pace for more.
Looking at what is happening with Ballard, I think even if Grabner was kept, he will be in the dog house.
I really don't think Grabner is the type AV will like.

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03-04-2013, 10:02 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Crows View Post
Grabner didn't break his back.
Score another for Grabner. =\ Injuries are unfortunate but games and stats aren't prorated or adjusted to mitigate them.

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03-04-2013, 10:04 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by nameless1 View Post
Looking at what is happening with Ballard, I think even if Grabner was kept, he will be in the dog house.
I really don't think Grabner is the type AV will like.
That's becoming a common theme not just here on the forums.

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Old
03-04-2013, 10:05 PM
  #165
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Score another for Grabner. =\ Injuries are unfortunate but games and stats aren't prorated or adjusted to mitigate them.
Grabner has barely out scored raymond.

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03-04-2013, 10:09 PM
  #166
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Neither he nor Raymond will be taking FOs on a regular basis. And they shouldn't.
Then pointing that out as a "strength" really wasn't all that relevant.

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Old
03-04-2013, 10:25 PM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crows View Post
Grabner has barely out scored raymond.

He has MASSIVELY out scored Raymond in goals.

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Old
03-04-2013, 10:37 PM
  #168
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I think what a lot of people overlook is the new, inventive stuff Gillis did when he first arrived. He brought a scientific approach to GM (things like sleep doctors etc).


Edit: 2008 draft. The only player of note was Hodgson, who Gillis took himself. Everything else was Nonis's scouts being Nonis's scouts. Thank good Gillis stepped in or that would be Beach.

He recognised scouting needed improving (same scouting Nonis sat on his hands over). We starting to pick up decent late pick prospects now (not just failed goons) and solid prospects via free agency. Did he succeed, is our scouting better? The juries out on that but it's better to try and improve it than repeat a known failure. At least he's smart enough to take the BPA when one falls to him rather than grab 3rd round talent in the 1st round, which is a start.

He's actively tried to hunt down power forwards. He's failed to date, Kassian might change that, but at least he was active (Bernier, Backes, Clifford).

He did the little things right to turn Nonis's flop team into a contender.

Injury prone defense? He brings in guys with low injury records, he's done his bit and you can't really blame him for their future injuries.

Some of his early UFAs have been great (Hamhuis, Samuelsson).

Most of his contracts are excellent (ie Sedins at $6m, Kesler at $5m, Hamhuis $4.6m).

Lately though stuff he touches isn't turning out so great, they've been flopping (Sturm), look iffy (Booth), keeping Alberts when I would rather have kept Rome TBH. Unfortunately our worst contracts are stuff he traded for.


Last edited by me2: 03-04-2013 at 10:43 PM.
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03-04-2013, 10:38 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
Gillis changed the culture, made AV open it up and brought in some mobile d-men, especially Ehrhoff. He deserves credit for that.

We have played in the worst overall division in the league over the last 5 years. We have made it past the second round ONE time despite all these amazing regular season accomplishments which IMO mean nothing if it doesn't carry into the playoffs.

The year we went to the finals we didn't face an elite team, we played the Hawks after they were torn apart and needed 4 tries to beat them, the Preds that were solid defensively but not great, and a Sharks team known for doing the same thing we do, losing in the playoffs! The road to the finals was easy in 2011 compared to what it would've been in 09 and 10 and 12. It was a great run but everything was set up for us that year.

Nobody can say he makes core additions or tough moves...

Sedin Sedin Burrows

Raymond Kesler Hansen

depth depth depth

depth depth depth

Edler Bieksa

garrison(salo) Hamhuis(mitchell)

depth overpaid depth(ballard)

Luongo
Schneider

Entire coaching staff


He rotates the depth positions year to year but that's it. He gets way too much credit. And IMO we aren't making it out of the second round this year so it will be 1/5 in that regard. Hardly a great job given our regular season point totals.
You're right, the core was set in place when he arrived, but is getting the 'I added a piece to the core' title so important to you that he should have traded the sedins or kesler for a different piece to make his mark in order to get it?

"He rotates the depth positions year to year but that's it"

Good depth doesn't play a role in winning cups? Cap management isnt important?

"And IMO we aren't making it out of the second round this year so it will be 1/5 in that regard. Hardly a great job given our regular season point totals."

What do the last two years point totals have to do with this year or gillis?

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Old
03-04-2013, 10:39 PM
  #170
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He has MASSIVELY out scored Raymond in goals.
He has MASSIVELY out scored Henrik Sedin in goals.

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03-04-2013, 11:21 PM
  #171
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umm as some have pointed out, this core is Dave Nonis's. Sure, Nonis handed out some picks but he was giving the West coast express core its last chance and he didnt cheap out. The Canucks were favorites to go deep in those last couple years.

You make it sound like he gutted the farm as bad as George Ferguson Jr or Daryl Sutter when its not even close.
He traded a bunch of draft picks for players that never panned out and didn't play a game in the NHL again after. That's just as bad as throwing those picks away.

The reason why the Moose/Wolves had been looking so void of talent the last couple of years is precisely because of that and his poor drafting to go with it.

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Old
03-05-2013, 12:36 AM
  #172
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He has MASSIVELY out scored Henrik Sedin in goals.

Ok. So give Grabner goals and give Sedin assists. How does this say anything good about Raymond again???

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03-05-2013, 12:42 AM
  #173
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Atleast he didnt trade two first round picks for Kessel

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03-05-2013, 12:45 AM
  #174
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Originally Posted by vanuck View Post
He traded a bunch of draft picks for players that never panned out and didn't play a game in the NHL again after. That's just as bad as throwing those picks away.

The reason why the Moose/Wolves had been looking so void of talent the last couple of years is precisely because of that and his poor drafting to go with it.

2004 is without doubt our best draft in the past 20 years. Schneider, Edler, Hansen.

2005 gave us Raymond and what should have been a solid player in Bourdon (RIP). Passing on Kopitar was a mistake no doubt.

2006 gave us Grabner. Seems a good pick in retrospect, even if you don't feel he would have worked here.

2007 sucked.

That's 5 (and a likely 6th) full time NHLers in 4 drafts. That is waaaay above average for this organization. And not just 4th line scrubs or cup-of-coffee journeyman either. Top 2 dman, emerging #1 goalie, 30 goal scorer, borderline 2nd line winger, and two-way 3rd liner. Gillis is off to a good start with Hodgson and Schroeder in the NHL but honestly, I probably give the nod to drafting under the Nonis regime right now.

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03-05-2013, 12:49 AM
  #175
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I think Gillis wears the Luongo contract but I doubt he negotiated it. It is too generous. It is the kind of contract a very rich man gives a buddy.

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