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Old
03-05-2013, 01:03 AM
  #176
me2
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Originally Posted by CanaFan View Post
Ok. So give Grabner goals and give Sedin assists. How does this say anything good about Raymond again???
Raymond usually provides over 1 assist for every goal. Grabner doesn't, he could put up 30 goals and still only bring 45 points to the team.

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03-05-2013, 01:12 AM
  #177
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I don't think it's a case of either/or. I thought it was a squandering of assets at the time of the trade. The response from people who disagreed with me amounted to "we have offense to spare" and "you have to overpay to get someone like Ballard". I hate being proven right in this case. A lot of it has to do with how Ballard seems to be a good person.
Dont forget my personal favorite I read..........."Grabner was going on WAIVERS anyways" ................(.but we didnt waive Jeff Tambellini) .....................

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03-05-2013, 01:20 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by nameless1 View Post
Looking at what is happening with Ballard, I think even if Grabner was kept, he will be in the dog house.
I really don't think Grabner is the type AV will like.
With the ingeries we have had over the last few years, they would have no choice but to use him. Avd he would have scored goals.

Never again should we think that we have offence to spare.

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03-05-2013, 01:23 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by TedTheTerror View Post
Atleast he didnt trade two first round picks for Kessel
He traded 2 developed first round picks for Ballard and Kassian.

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03-05-2013, 01:24 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
With the ingeries we have had over the last few years, they would have no choice but to use him. Avd he would have scored goals.
Only if he was kept on the active roster. Who'd we have injured up front in 2010-11? Raymond missed the most games at 12; we were fairly healthy with respect to forwards. We had a ton on injuries on the blueline - so keeping a forward on the active roster (to avoid losing him via waivers) was a luxory item we couldn't afford.

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03-05-2013, 01:24 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by CanaFan View Post
2004 is without doubt our best draft in the past 20 years. Schneider, Edler, Hansen.

2005 gave us Raymond and what should have been a solid player in Bourdon (RIP). Passing on Kopitar was a mistake no doubt.

2006 gave us Grabner. Seems a good pick in retrospect, even if you don't feel he would have worked here.

2007 sucked.

That's 5 (and a likely 6th) full time NHLers in 4 drafts. That is waaaay above average for this organization. And not just 4th line scrubs or cup-of-coffee journeyman either. Top 2 dman, emerging #1 goalie, 30 goal scorer, borderline 2nd line winger, and two-way 3rd liner. Gillis is off to a good start with Hodgson and Schroeder in the NHL but honestly, I probably give the nod to drafting under the Nonis regime right now.


The problem with this comparison is that Nonis has 5 years post his departure for everyone to evaluate his picks. Gillis doesn't have that same benefit.

For me, without a doubt Gillis has been better. No question in my mind about it. But of course, Jensen and Corrado first have to make the big club. Then there's the FA signings of Lack and Tanev that blow Nonis's attempts out of the water.

Even though Gillis has essentially voided one of his own drafts (2010), I still take Jensen, Schroeder and Hodgson over anything Nonis has produced. This without even getting into the depth picks like Corrado, McNally, Price, Andersson, Tommernes, Cannata, Polasek, Blomstrand, Labate and even Rodin if he gets back on track from his injuries. Simply put, Gillis is a better talent evaluate. I have felt this from his very first draft.

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03-05-2013, 01:45 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by CanaFan View Post
2004 is without doubt our best draft in the past 20 years. Schneider, Edler, Hansen.

2005 gave us Raymond and what should have been a solid player in Bourdon (RIP). Passing on Kopitar was a mistake no doubt.

2006 gave us Grabner. Seems a good pick in retrospect, even if you don't feel he would have worked here.

2007 sucked.

That's 5 (and a likely 6th) full time NHLers in 4 drafts. That is waaaay above average for this organization. And not just 4th line scrubs or cup-of-coffee journeyman either. Top 2 dman, emerging #1 goalie, 30 goal scorer, borderline 2nd line winger, and two-way 3rd liner. Gillis is off to a good start with Hodgson and Schroeder in the NHL but honestly, I probably give the nod to drafting under the Nonis regime right now.
Oh, without a doubt 2004 was terrific. He may have only had input on Schneider but I'll give him credit. After all he did take a leap of faith and take a chance on Edler. I would also mention Mike Brown in there who's at least a serviceable, tough 4th liner too.

But even in your post, you can see a disturbing trend. The problem really was that his drafting would get worse with each passing year. In 2005 he passed up the obvious Best Player Available and went with Bourdon (RIP) over Kopitar. Now Luc still may have turned into a good D-man so he and Raymond - a good pick - would have made for 2 NHL'ers.

In 2006 we have Grabner and Shirokov, who was a 'maybe' though we might never know. But again he passed on the BPA in the 1st round to take Grabs.

In 2007... well, you already know the story I'm sure. Yet another reach with the 1st rounder. Perron, Subban, Simmonds... they were all there for the taking.

So not only did his drafting get progressively worse, his drafting in the 1st round alone was problematic as he tended to avoid going with the consensus BPA and it ended up being one of the factors that cost him his job.

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03-05-2013, 01:52 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by JuniorNelson View Post
I think Gillis wears the Luongo contract but I doubt he negotiated it. It is too generous. It is the kind of contract a very rich man gives a buddy.
Kassian has to pan out or Gillis is in trouble. The Lou deal is not what he will be judged on. Lou has value.

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03-05-2013, 01:55 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Only if he was kept on the active roster. Who'd we have injured up front in 2010-11? Raymond missed the most games at 12; we were fairly healthy with respect to forwards. We had a ton on injuries on the blueline - so keeping a forward on the active roster (to avoid losing him via waivers) was a luxory item we couldn't afford.
Samuelson and Molholtra were out with ingeries. Burrows and Kess where playing hurt

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03-05-2013, 01:59 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
Samuelson and Molholtra were out with ingeries.
Sammy missed 7 games that year. Maholtra - a center (hardly a spot Grabner could've filled) missed 10 games that season. meh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
Burrows and Kess where playing hurt
You think AV would put in a rookie over those two guys - even if they're hurt? (see: Hodgson). Especially in the case of Kesler - a center - with a rookie winger?

Again, Grabner's game only came around when he played consistantly (30+ games) - non-4th liner minutes; not with a "cup of coffee" with the parent club.


Last edited by Barney Gumble: 03-05-2013 at 02:08 AM.
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03-05-2013, 02:08 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Sammy missed 7 games that year. Maholtra - a center (hardly a spot Grabner could've filled) missed 10 games that season. meh.


You think AV would put in a rookie over those two guys - even if they're hurt? (see: Hodgson).

Again, Grabner's game only came around when he played consistantly (30+ games) - non-4th liner minutes; not with a "cup of coffee" with the parent club.
That's true about his game coming around. He was a flop with the Islanders for quite a while before he exploded. OTOH I think we could have kept if we really wanted. The 4th line was not good, 13th forward etc.

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03-05-2013, 02:10 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by me2 View Post
OTOH I think we could have kept if we really wanted. The 4th line was not good, 13th forward etc.
Not AV's line of thinking though - else we would've kept a guy like Brendan Morrison around. That's what you have to take into consideration.

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03-05-2013, 02:11 AM
  #188
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That's true about his game coming around. He was a flop with the Islanders for quite a while before he exploded. OTOH I think we could have kept if we really wanted. The 4th line was not good, 13th forward etc.
What, you mean Glass-Bolduc-Desbiens aren't good enough?

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03-05-2013, 02:12 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by vanuck View Post
What, you mean Glass-Bolduc-Desbiens aren't good enough?
Glass was good - as a 4th liner. When AV used him for a role not suited for him - that's when he was bad. Kind of like Aaron Rome.

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03-05-2013, 02:13 AM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
Kassian has to pan out or Gillis is in trouble. The Lou deal is not what he will be judged on. Lou has value.
All Kassian has to do is get to a top6 level offensively. If he does that, this trade is good.

Luongo's value will only truly be known when the deal actually goes down.

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03-05-2013, 02:29 AM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post
Dont forget my personal favorite I read..........."Grabner was going on WAIVERS anyways" ................(.but we didnt waive Jeff Tambellini) .....................
They did waive Jeff Tambellini.

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03-05-2013, 02:34 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Glass was good - as a 4th liner. When AV used him for a role not suited for him - that's when he was bad. Kind of like Aaron Rome.
In all seriousness, I remember often he would be the best player on the 4th line - and that wasn't good, considering who his linemates were. In a vacuum, I think he was decent though. Also, playing him injured in the playoffs did nothing for us offensively.

In a way, I think me2 is right that we could've kept Grabner if we really wanted. It was just this whole 'goal-scorers don't belong on the 3rd line' mentality (wonder who convinced MG of this line of thinking ), and by extension the bottom 6 as a whole. Not great for our depth scoring, but by no means would his absence have been a deciding factor anyway when the playoff injuries hit as they were simply too much to overcome.

But factor in Grabner's known propensity for having poor work ethic and it spelled the end for him in Vancouver regardless. In another universe, I'd like to think they could have made room for another speedy winger who was like Grabs but with work ethic to go with his skill - a universe where we win the Cup having a healthy team and a 4th line of Higgins, Lapierre and a hard-working Grabner clone. I mean, we ended up dressing Victor freaking Oreskovich on the RW because we literally had nobody else...

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03-05-2013, 03:02 AM
  #193
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What issue has there been with Manny? He's on IR and getting paid because Gillis doesn't want to risk his health. It's pretty apparent that he's telling the truth about that since he doesn't want to trade him or waive him. Hell, the team has been worse ever since Manny was put on IR and big part of it is not having anyone to take those defensive draws.
My only gripe with that is Manny himself doesn't agree with the decision. He wants to play and I don't think it's fair to not trade him so he can play somewhere else at the very least. I get he's looking out for Manny but the final decision should be Manny's.

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03-05-2013, 03:05 AM
  #194
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My only gripe with that is Manny himself doesn't agree with the decision. He wants to play and I don't think it's fair to not trade him so he can play somewhere else at the very least. I get he's looking out for Manny but the final decision should be Manny's.
Has he said that he hasn't tried to move him? I highly doubt the trade market is too active for a guy with that contract that is, at this point, a 4th liner, who has been deemed unfit to play by an NHL team.

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03-05-2013, 03:26 AM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Then pointing that out as a "strength" really wasn't all that relevant.
I was not pointing out "strengths". I was pointing out things Grabner does better than Raymond. If it's hockey-related, it's relevant.

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03-05-2013, 03:26 AM
  #196
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Has he said that he hasn't tried to move him? I highly doubt the trade market is too active for a guy with that contract that is, at this point, a 4th liner, who has been deemed unfit to play by an NHL team.
He said on after hours that he won't trade or waive Manny. He doesn't want him to play period.

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03-05-2013, 03:48 AM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
All Kassian has to do is get to a top6 level offensively. If he does that, this trade is good.

Luongo's value will only truly be known when the deal actually goes down.
And whether MG likes it or not, this fan base will forever keep track of this trade. You have to wonder if it was worth the trouble.

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03-05-2013, 08:09 AM
  #198
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I was not pointing out "strengths". I was pointing out things Grabner does better than Raymond. If it's hockey-related, it's relevant.
While we're at it, why not compare Umberger vs Schroeder?

Pointless. Grabner was never going to work out in Vancouver. He simply wasn't able to do enough until he became waiver eligible and a team like the Canucks, who actually tries to win, doesn't have the luxury of standing around doing nothing and hope for a break out.

Notorious slow starter, not very skilled player, confidence issues. No coincidence he excelled in NYI with little to no competition for minutes nor pressure to succeed. He would've been waived by the Canucks just like he was by Florida.

There's no question that Ballard has been a failure and in hindsight those assets and cap space could've been put elsewhere (maybe?), but that's hindsight. Value wise, not knowing how bad Ballard would play and how reluctant the coaching staff would be with him, I'd do that deal every time.

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03-05-2013, 08:28 AM
  #199
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Grabner last season and this season is really only a breakaway threat. If he isn't on a breakaway he tends to be out on the perimeter. If he had a passing game that could still be effective but he doesn't. Right now as with last season his icetime is declining to the point where he is playing less than 14 minutes a game more often than not the past month. His speed has worked great on the PK for the islanders but they don't give him much PP time anymore and he's getting third line ES time. On the Islanders. On good teams there is a very real chance he's further down the depth chart. What he is right now is a decent goal scorer on a poor team. On teams higher up in the standings it isn't a stretch to think he would be in and out of the lineup. Which is really the same spot he was in when the Canucks traded him.

I'll be perfectly honest...there isn't much Grabner does better than Raymond. Especially the healthy Raymond we are seeing this year.

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03-05-2013, 08:53 AM
  #200
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The thing I didn't like about losing Grabner was that he's exciting. You can say this or that about his stats(by the way he gets around the same points per game as Canucks 2nd liner Booth). What I miss is Grabner stealing the puck and absolutely blazing down the ice on a breakaway that gets the fans out of their seat and making noise. Yes I want the team to win but I'm also watching to be entertained and Grabner Brought that some games(I admit he also has his share of invisible games).

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