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David Desharnais Discussion Part II: The 'Stay on your Feet' Edition

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Old
03-05-2013, 07:07 AM
  #101
LyricalLyricist
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
At that price, there are probably better options than DD to be honest.
Term creeps me out too. 3-4 years max would be good.

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03-05-2013, 07:08 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Pray tell who, in the upcoming free agents, is worth more than DD and willing to sign for 3.5-3.75M$?
I haven't watched, and obviously, that wasn't my point.

DD will be an asset for this team. If his salary isn't too high for what he can bring.

We're starting to see the problem with Gorges 4 million contract.

Besides, the Gorges situation is EXTREMELY similar to the Desharnais situation.

Yet, no thread was created... hummm...

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03-05-2013, 07:09 AM
  #103
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Are you arguing the difference between "don't like" and "hate"? Because "don't like" isn't really part of the expression.
Yeah there's a difference between the two. I'm not arguing, I'm stating.

Hate is how a lot of fans felt about Kovalev 3 years ago or Campoli last year.

I don't know of anybody that feels that way about DD. It might be out there, but I don't see much of it at all.

That you describe the skeptics as "haters" shows you might just not understand their arguments.

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03-05-2013, 07:11 AM
  #104
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Jamie Benn just signed a 5 year/$26 m deal ($5.25/year) and Jiri Hudler signed a 4 year/$16m deal this past off season. Benn had 56 and 63 points the past 2 seasons; Hudler had 57 and 50 points in his best 2 out of the last 3 seasons.

IF DD can put up 35 points this season (roughly a 60 point full season equivalent), I can't imagine his agent not seeking in the $4m/yr range for him over 4/5 years. But he'll be an RFA, so the Canadiens have enough leverage to sign him for much less. I'd think his deal would be in the 3/4 year/$2.75-3m range.

However, if the management thinks like many on this board do-in that Eller is a better long term asset at center-then who knows what contract negotiations will lead to in the end?

In any case, he'll be doing a hell of a lot better than the $400/week and team provided housing that he originally signed for in Cincinnati in 2007 He'll be making more than Gordie Howe or Bobby Hull ever dreamed about earning and will get no sympathy from this supporter whatever if the ultimate number he signs for is less than he or his agent desires

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03-05-2013, 07:14 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Yeah there's a difference between the two. I'm not arguing, I'm stating.

Hate is how a lot of fans felt about Kovalev 3 years ago or Campoli last year.

I don't know of anybody that feels that way about DD. It might be out there, but I don't see much of it at all.

That you describe the skeptics as "haters" shows you might just not understand their arguments.
Put lipstick on a pig, and it's still a pig.

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03-05-2013, 07:17 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post

But he'll be an RFA, so the Canadiens have enough leverage to sign him for much less. I'd think his deal would be in the 3/4 year/$2.75-3m range.

However, if the management thinks like many on this board do-in that Eller is a better long term asset at center-then who knows what contract negotiations will lead to in the end?

I'd like DD to be back at 2.75, to be honest. In the end, the lower he signs, the better the team can be in the long term.

I'm not convinced at all that Eller is a better long-term asset : if he is, both players are so different that their future isn't probably related. I see Lars Eller's future as being related to Tomas Plekanec, to be honest.

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03-05-2013, 07:25 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
I'd like DD to be back at 2.75, to be honest. In the end, the lower he signs, the better the team can be in the long term.

I'm not convinced at all that Eller is a better long-term asset : if he is, both players are so different that their future isn't probably related. I see Lars Eller's future as being related to Tomas Plekanec, to be honest.
Yes. Because the proper way of treating your players who give all their heart and body to the team and act as extreme competitors against any adversity is to abuse their RFA status to extract unfair terms.

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03-05-2013, 07:26 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
I'd like DD to be back at 2.75, to be honest. In the end, the lower he signs, the better the team can be in the long term.

I'm not convinced at all that Eller is a better long-term asset : if he is, both players are so different that their future isn't probably related. I see Lars Eller's future as being related to Tomas Plekanec, to be honest.
And DD's future is related to Galchenyuk's.

Right now DD is better at getting taking offensive zone faceoffs against weaker opposition, after icing calls, on the power play, and with the two best wingers on the team (Gallagher had those stats before joining the DD line). So he gets the nod over Galchenyuk.

In two years? We'll see. I'd be surprised if AG doesn't become better than DD, and for saying that, LL might call me a "hater".

Though none of this matters if DD is converted to wing.

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However, if the management thinks like many on this board do-in that Eller is a better long term asset at center-then who knows what contract negotiations will lead to in the end?
Eller is superior defensively, but offense matters too.

Eller is actually doing marginally better offensively this season at even strength.

They actually have the same points/60 this season, 2.37 for Eller and 2.33 for DD. However, DD benefits from starting more often in the ozone (57% vs 43%) and easier opposition (-0.344 vs +0.799 Corsi Rel QoC).

Again, none of this matters if DD is converted to wing, which I'm beginning to think is inevitable.

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Yes. Because the proper way of treating your players who give all their heart and body to the team and act as extreme competitors against any adversity is to abuse their RFA status to extract unfair terms.
See Subban.

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03-05-2013, 07:28 AM
  #109
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Put lipstick on a pig, and it's still a pig.
Yep, but some posters here might get tricked into sleeping with it

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03-05-2013, 07:29 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
I'd like DD to be back at 2.75, to be honest. In the end, the lower he signs, the better the team can be in the long term.

I'm not convinced at all that Eller is a better long-term asset : if he is, both players are so different that their future isn't probably related. I see Lars Eller's future as being related to Tomas Plekanec, to be honest.
Could be. Plek is signed for 3 more years at $5m and Eller is an RFA after next season. He's currently at $1.3m. Galchenyuk is at $3.25m for 2 more seasons. If DD signs at $2.75 and Eller at around $2m, then the Habs would have $13m/yr. invested in their centers which really would be manageable. That would be just around 20% of the cap.

So, perhaps it is entirely reasonable and prudent to go forward with the current 4 centers. It certainly is economically feasible. The team really may not be faced with an either/or dilemma for the next 3 seasons anyway.


Last edited by Cyclones Rock: 03-05-2013 at 07:35 AM.
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03-05-2013, 07:33 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
See Subban.
Subban who came of his ELC and was forced to sign a bridge contract, and is expected to sign a juicy big-money long term contract in 2 years?

Compare his situation with Desharnais's who just came off 2 bridge contracts, and therefore reached the point in his career where he'd expect his juicy contract?

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03-05-2013, 07:37 AM
  #112
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Yes. Because the proper way of treating your players who give all their heart and body to the team and act as extreme competitors against any adversity is to abuse their RFA status to extract unfair terms.
See Burrows, Alex.

It's a salary cap world. The lower a player is paid, the bigger + he is.

This said, a realistic contract for DD would be something like 3.250 per. But I really hope he signs for a little less than that.


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And DD's future is related to Galchenyuk's.
While this isn't totally accurate (I think his contract demands will have more importance), it's certainly a good way to put it.

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03-05-2013, 07:39 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Subban who came of his ELC and was forced to sign a bridge contract, and is expected to sign a juicy big-money long term contract in 2 years?
That's an assummptiion.

We'll see if Subban gets 6 years 39 million or whatever.

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Compare his situation with Desharnais's who just came off 2 bridge contracts, and therefore reached the point in his career where he'd expect his juicy contract?
DD will get what he's worth.

I don't think Brgevin will repeat Gainy's strategy of letting players walk for nothing.

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03-05-2013, 07:43 AM
  #114
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Could be. Plek is signed for 3 more years at $5m and Eller is an RFA after next season. He's currently at $1.3m. Galchenyuk is at $3.25m for 2 more seasons. If DD signs at $2.75 and Eller at around $2m, then the Habs would have $13m/yr. invested in their centers which really would be manageable. That would be just around 20% of the cap.

So, perhaps it is entirely reasonable and prudent to go forward with the current 4 centers. It certainly is economically feasible. The team really may not be faced with an either/or dilemma for the next 3 seasons anyway.
The problem isn't whether we can keep the 4 centers or not the problem is who do you slot as the 4th center? They are all too talented to be playing with plugs. Maybe it's time for DD to go and roll with Galchenyuk-Eller-Plekanec at center and target a big name in free agency a la Corey Perry (dreaming).

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03-05-2013, 07:46 AM
  #115
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The problem isn't whether we can keep the 4 centers or not the problem is who do you slot as the 4th center? They are all too talented to be playing with plugs. Maybe it's time for DD to go and roll with Galchenyuk-Eller-Plekanec at center and target a big name in free agency a la Corey Perry (dreaming).
You keep all of them for as long as possible. You sign them for the best contract you can. You manage to sign Perry anyway 'cause you still have plenty of Cap space.

When you really need to clear room, you have a few talented centres available to trade, who are chained by very advantageous contract and therefore are juicy trade bait.

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03-05-2013, 07:56 AM
  #116
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You keep all of them for as long as possible. You sign them for the best contract you can. You manage to sign Perry anyway 'cause you still have plenty of Cap space.

When you really need to clear room, you have a few talented centres available to trade, who are chained by very advantageous contract and therefore are juicy trade bait.
You still have too many centers for 2013-14 season and you can't really slot one on the 4th line they're just too good for that.

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03-05-2013, 08:01 AM
  #117
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You still have too many centers for 2013-14 season and you can't really slot one on the 4th line they're just too good for that.
You keep developing Galchenyuk on the wing until one of your other Centre gets injured or hits a bad bump. You send him occasionally as centre on the PP or OT so he keeps develop in this responsibility.

Eventually, someone will inquire about one of your centre and you do a bright day theft.

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03-05-2013, 08:06 AM
  #118
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The problem isn't whether we can keep the 4 centers or not the problem is who do you slot as the 4th center? They are all too talented to be playing with plugs. Maybe it's time for DD to go and roll with Galchenyuk-Eller-Plekanec at center and target a big name in free agency a la Corey Perry (dreaming).
Are you really ready to roll with Eller (career .33 PPG) and an 18 year old rookie and dump a .75 PPG center in DD? Why? The team is going quite well and it seems unneccessarily preemtive. The way the CBA works relative to RFAs, the Habs can have their cake and eat it too at center. May as well exploit the system when they have the opportunity to do it.

Players get stuck in roles that they don't like. Life ain't fair sometimes.

Obviously an acquisition like Perry changes the equation dramatically, but that's one of those, "we'll jump off that bridge when we have to" situations.

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03-05-2013, 08:19 AM
  #119
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Are you really ready to roll with Eller (career .33 PPG) and an 18 year old rookie and dump a .75 PPG center in DD? Why? The team is going quite well and it seems unneccessarily preemtive. The way the CBA works relative to RFAs, the Habs can have their cake and eat it too at center. May as well exploit the system when they have the opportunity to do it.

Players get stuck in roles that they don't like. Life ain't fair sometimes.

Obviously an acquisition like Perry changes the equation dramatically, but that's one of those, "we'll jump off that bridge when we have to" situations.
What I was also stating is that you have to put one of those four centers at wing and until we know that Galchenyuk can take that #2 or #1 center spot for sure then it would be a good time to trade one of them. But for those season when we have four above-average centers who do you slot at wing? Maybe like PricePKPatch said you slot Chuckie at wing for another season to continue his development either way slotting one at 4th line center would just be a waste of talent.

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03-05-2013, 08:26 AM
  #120
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Yep...you said it!! We can fit ONE player who is deficient in those areas but is actually an excellent playmaker with great work ethic.....

ONE player...at least at center.

Soon (i would like as fast as possible)....Galchenyuk who is perhaps deficient in those areas but is actually an excellent playmaker with great work ethic, might NEED to be that ONE player for his devellopment!
Great, so ONE and ONE only playmaker on the team. Heaven forbid we actually have offensive depth.

If we want to roll 3 lines that can score, he will be a part of this team. There is no way we have 9 forwards that are better than him even when Galchenyuk leapfrogs him in the depth chart.


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03-05-2013, 08:28 AM
  #121
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I like desharnais. Every time he's against to wall he comes up with a great performance. His whole hockey career has been like that. Never big enough, etc. He is a great model for the kids.

That been said, for a better center I would replace him anyday. BUT I don't think he will looking at the money only so if he wants a reasonable amount, we should keep him

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03-05-2013, 08:31 AM
  #122
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I like desharnais. Every time he's against to wall he comes up with a great performance. His whole hockey career has been like that. Never big enough, etc. He is a great model for the kids.

That been said, for a better center I would replace him anyday. BUT I don't think he will looking at the money only so if he wants a reasonable amount, we should keep him
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03-05-2013, 08:40 AM
  #123
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I like desharnais. Every time he's against to wall he comes up with a great performance. His whole hockey career has been like that. Never big enough, etc. He is a great model for the kids.

That been said, for a better center I would replace him anyday. BUT I don't think he will looking at the money only so if he wants a reasonable amount, we should keep him
"When I grow up, I wanna be like... oh, wait"

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03-05-2013, 08:43 AM
  #124
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What I was also stating is that you have to put one of those four centers at wing and until we know that Galchenyuk can take that #2 or #1 center spot for sure then it would be a good time to trade one of them. But for those season when we have four above-average centers who do you slot at wing? Maybe like PricePKPatch said you slot Chuckie at wing for another season to continue his development either way slotting one at 4th line center would just be a waste of talent.
For a puck-control expert like Eller, actually, he is strangely suited for 4th line duties at time. Our 4th line proved to be quite dominant with him there, which really, really tired the opposition more than they have since Eller was promoted.

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03-05-2013, 08:56 AM
  #125
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Yeah there's a difference between the two. I'm not arguing, I'm stating.

Hate is how a lot of fans felt about Kovalev 3 years ago or Campoli last year.

I don't know of anybody that feels that way about DD. It might be out there, but I don't see much of it at all.

That you describe the skeptics as "haters" shows you might just not understand their arguments.
A skeptic with a legit argument is not a hater. One without? Well, simple enough.

It's about being objective. DD is what he is.

I hear a lot of "you can't win with him", but we're winning with him. He's even being clutch.

I hear a lot of "DD needs big wingers to play well" and then he gets gallagher...and plays well.

At the end of the day, DD is an asset. He helps the team, he has a positive impact. Can we win with Desharnais? Absolutely. Can we win more with Mats Sundin in his prime? Yes. I'm sure we may win a few more with lemieux in his prime too. Just because one player may have a bigger impact, does not mean DD doesn't have a positive one.

People need to let it go. DD is part of the team and likely to stay unless we can find an upgrade. If we can get one at the right price, cya DD. Then again, if we can get one at the right price, cya Eller. And so on...

DD CLEARLY is not an untouchable. If anyone ever says that, I'd call them out for it. DD is not a star center nor is he martin st louis now and probably ever.

Still, DD competes, he plays bigger than his size, so does gallagher. I take these guys on my team 10 times out of 10. They help us win.

By no means does this mean DD is immune to criticism. I surely hope if he plays badly, we discuss it. Yet, he's playing well and competing, what's the problem?

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