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Dead puck era - 95-04 - Who were considered the best. All positions.

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Old
03-02-2013, 09:21 PM
  #26
tombombadil
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Forsberg-Lindros-Jagr
(Sakic)
Lidstrom-Stevens
(Pronger)
Hasek
(Hasek)

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Old
03-03-2013, 04:48 PM
  #27
feffan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Pronger was Stevens' equal physically and defensively. As we're limiting it to 94-95 through 03-04, Pronger was a better skater and far more effective offensively.

During this period I consider it strange to think of anyone but Pronger as the #2 defenseman, simply because the other candidates people suggest either were similar-type defensemen who were Pronger's equal in some areas and well behind in others (Blake, Stevens, Chelios at that time of his career), were not even the best defenseman on their team for most of the period (Niedermayer), and/or were outplayed by Pronger as teammates (MacInnis).
Pronger didnīt strike fear in me when my team(s) went up against the Blues the way Stevens did back then. That feeling regarding Pronger really took of for me first post 2:nd lockout. And never to the level of Stevens. Even if Pronger sure had sexier offensive numbers by then, that wonīt change. Ainīt many players Iīd pick before Stevens to build a team around for the years 95 until his retirement. Even if Pronger probably was a better player the last seasons there. The underachieving Blues of that period probably damps my mind somewhat.
That said: Pronger surpassed MacInnis a couple of seasons into the DPE and considering Bourques retirement and Leetch and Chelios drop off Pronger seems to be secured third.
Would also say that Niedermayer really donīt belong in this discussion.

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03-03-2013, 06:08 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
Ozolinsh established himself as a counterpart of Lidstrom in Colorado. For a short, but bright while.
Ozilinsh was never nearly as good as Lidstrom. He was great on the pp, and a solid puck mover, but he didn`t have anywhere near the all around game. Its almost insulting to include Ozilinsh on this list.

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03-03-2013, 06:29 PM
  #29
mrhockey193195
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Without looking at stats (just trying to test my memory here!), I'm gonna give it a shot. So don't kill me if I leave someone out or include someone who shouldn't be there.

F: Jagr, Lemieux, Sakic, Forsberg, Modano (couldn't really choose between Modano, Sundin, Fedorov, Lindros, Naslund, Recchi, Selanne, Kariya, etc.)

D: Lidstrom, Pronger, MacInnis, Bourque, Stevens (HM to Niedermayer, Zubov, Chelios, Hatcher, Desjardins, Blake, etc.)

G: Brodeur, Roy, Hasek, Belfour, Joseph (this top five seems pretty easy to me, though again I might be forgetting someone obvious)

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03-03-2013, 09:35 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Chelios bounced back in 1999-2000, and it's certainly reflected by the statistical record, as his line was on the ice for 102 GF (highest on the team) but only 54 GA (lowest of the four full-time defensemen). He was a +48; the next highest defenseman on the team was +19. And he wasn't getting protected either. Not saying he was the best in the league or even the second-best, but his decline didn't last that long, in my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Chelios and his bounce back in 99-00 is very similar to Bourques with the Avs, largely driven by his supporting cast.

A very use full player to be sure but just like Bourque, put him on a less than average team and he wouldn't look top 10 in that year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by feffan View Post
Pronger didnīt strike fear in me when my team(s) went up against the Blues the way Stevens did back then. That feeling regarding Pronger really took of for me first post 2:nd lockout. And never to the level of Stevens. Even if Pronger sure had sexier offensive numbers by then, that wonīt change. Ainīt many players Iīd pick before Stevens to build a team around for the years 95 until his retirement. Even if Pronger probably was a better player the last seasons there. The underachieving Blues of that period probably damps my mind somewhat.
That said: Pronger surpassed MacInnis a couple of seasons into the DPE and considering Bourques retirement and Leetch and Chelios drop off Pronger seems to be secured third.
Would also say that Niedermayer really donīt belong in this discussion.
Norris finishes from 1995 through 2004, including all Norris winners plus Bourque, Stevens, Desjardins, Ozolinsh, Gonchar, Murphy, Zubov, Konstantinov, Redden, and Derian Hatcher:

Coffey: 1st, 5th, NA, NA, NA, NA, NA, DNP, DNP, DNP
Chelios: 2nd, 1st, 4th, 12th, 18th, 6th, NA, 2nd, 17th, NA
Leetch: 4th, 3rd, 1st, NA, 8th, NA, 5th, 9th, 15th, 11th
Blake: NA, NA, NA, 1st, 17th, 3rd, 4th, 3rd, 5th, 8th
MacInnis: NA, NA, NA, 8th, 1st, 8th, 7th, NA, 2nd, NA
Pronger: NA, NA, 15th, 3rd, 4th, 1st, 10th, 5th, NA, 3rd
Lidstrom: NA, 6th, 6th, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 6th
Niedermayer: NA, NA, NA, 5th, 12th, NA, NA, NA, 13th, 1st
Bourque: 3rd, 2nd, 8th, 7th, 3rd, 7th, 2nd, DNP, DNP, DNP
Stevens: NA, 10th, 5th, 4th, 6th, 10th, 3rd, 10th, 16th, NA
Desjardins: NA, 9th, 9th, 16th, 5th, 4th, 10th, NA, 14th, NA
Ozolinsh: NA, NA, 3rd, NA, NA, 16th, NA, NA, 17th, NA
Gonchar: NA, NA, 18th, NA, NA, 5th, 6th, 4th, 4th, 9th
Murphy: 4th, 14th, NA, 6th, 11th, NA, NA, DNP, DNP, DNP
Zubov: NA, 13th, 13th, 9th, 13th, 9th, 8th, NA, 8th, 17th
Konstantinov: NA, 4th, 2nd, DNP, DNP, DNP, DNP, DNP, DNP, DNP
Redden: DNP, DNP, NA, NA, NA, 11th, 12th, NA, 9th, 10th
D.Hatcher: NA, NA, 17th, NA, 7th, 16th, NA, NA, 3rd, NA

More specifially, let's compare Stevens and Pronger side by side.
Pronger: NA, NA, 15th, 3rd, 4th, 1st, 10th, 5th, NA, 3rd
Stevens: NA, 10th, 5th, 4th, 6th, 10th, 3rd, 10th, 16th, NA

Pronger:
YearGPRank
94-9543NA
95-9678NA
96-977915
97-98813
98-99674
99-00791
00-015110
01-02785
02-035NA
03-04803
Stevens:
YearGPRank
94-9548NA
95-968210
96-97795
97-98804
98-99756
99-007810
00-01813
01-028210
02-038116
03-0438NA

Once Pronger hit his stride in 1997 (he was a rookie in 1993-94, remember) he didn't finish outside the top five unless he missed 31 games or more until 2005-06, his single season in Edmonton (he finished seventh that season).

Stevens was regularly finishing outside of the top five; it was getting INSIDE the top five that was a problem for him.

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Old
03-04-2013, 03:09 AM
  #31
begbeee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Ozilinsh was never nearly as good as Lidstrom. He was great on the pp, and a solid puck mover, but he didn`t have anywhere near the all around game. Its almost insulting to include Ozilinsh on this list.
I didn't say he was anywhere in say TOP 10. He just should be mentioned, same with Gonchar. He has been recognized in Norris voting, got a 1st All-star team spot and finished 5th in scoring among defensman during 1995-2004 period, above guys like Gonchar, Niedermayer, Blake... I know he had serious flaws in his play, but for a brief moment he was the best offensive D out there. His mention is not insulting in any sense.

As for part about Lidstrom, yes. If Sakic and Forsberg were answers to Yzerman and Fedorov, Ozolinsh was brought as a counterpart for Lidstrom and was viewed that way. He failed in defensive zone and the answer was coming of Bourque and Blake.

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03-04-2013, 05:47 AM
  #32
feffan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Norris finishes from 1995 through 2004, including all Norris winners plus Bourque, Stevens, Desjardins, Ozolinsh, Gonchar, Murphy, Zubov, Konstantinov, Redden, and Derian Hatcher:

Once Pronger hit his stride in 1997 (he was a rookie in 1993-94, remember) he didn't finish outside the top five unless he missed 31 games or more until 2005-06, his single season in Edmonton (he finished seventh that season).

Stevens was regularly finishing outside of the top five; it was getting INSIDE the top five that was a problem for him.
Canīt believe I forgot Desjardins before. My Flyers-fan of a brother would not forgive that. Not a top 5, but would most definetley be top 10 on a couple of lists.

Sure, Norris-voting gives us some idea what players achived - but the voters are to obsessed with raw numbers. For example a player like Norstrom never got any votes in the DPE and Foote placed 10th in voting once as did Öhlund. And I can say I would vote any of them the better defenceman by miles in the late 90īs/early 00īs than say Phil Housley, Fredrik Olausson and Adrian Aucoin who all got Norris-votes during the same period.

Pronger was wreckless in the wrong way during most, not all, of the timeperiod we are talking about. Penalties in the wrong time and so on. For me he learned how to be a valuable menace to his team so to say first post 2:nd lockout, or at least late DPE. He was a part of why the Blues continually disappointed come april.

Pronger also never scared players to cross the blueline or go into his corner the way Stevens did. That kind of presence canīt be meausured in numbers.

Only looking at numbers and Norris-voting one would argue that Stevens was a much better player during his Capitals day, thatīs simply not true. Divide each of them into two players, one early and one late career I would rank them:
Post 2:nd lockout Pronger
DPE Stevens
DPE Pronger
Capitals/earlyNJ Stevens

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Old
03-04-2013, 06:54 AM
  #33
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No one is ranking Stevens ahead of Pronger purely based on regular season work, so comparing them just by looking at their Norris trophy finishes is missing the mark. Stevens is probably barely top 10 in the DPE on regular seasons alone. What elevates him into the top 3-5 is that he was one of the best, arguably the best, playoff performers of that era.

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03-04-2013, 08:17 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
No one is ranking Stevens ahead of Pronger purely based on regular season work, so comparing them just by looking at their Norris trophy finishes is missing the mark. Stevens is probably barely top 10 in the DPE on regular seasons alone. What elevates him into the top 3-5 is that he was one of the best, arguably the best, playoff performers of that era.
Also among the best playoff performers of the era:

Claude Lemieux
Slava Kozlov
Joe Nieuwendyk
Chris Drury

Larry Murphy
Darryl Sydor

Mike Vernon
JS Giguere

Those players were all pretty solid regular season performers. Murphy, as noted, was still considered one of the best defensemen most years.

Would you take their playoff performances and vault them from "among the better players at their position" to "top five player in the league"?

The playoffs are important, but not to the exclusion of the regular season. If the only thing that mattered was the playoffs in terms of how good a player is/was, Henrik Zetterberg would be considered the "consensus" best player since the lockout instead of Sidney Crosby.

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03-04-2013, 08:21 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
I didn't say he was anywhere in say TOP 10. He just should be mentioned, same with Gonchar. He has been recognized in Norris voting, got a 1st All-star team spot and finished 5th in scoring among defensman during 1995-2004 period, above guys like Gonchar, Niedermayer, Blake... I know he had serious flaws in his play, but for a brief moment he was the best offensive D out there. His mention is not insulting in any sense.

As for part about Lidstrom, yes. If Sakic and Forsberg were answers to Yzerman and Fedorov, Ozolinsh was brought as a counterpart for Lidstrom and was viewed that way. He failed in defensive zone and the answer was coming of Bourque and Blake.
If Ozolinsh is mentioned, then you have to mention Konstantinov, and rank him above Ozolinsh. Why? Ozolinsh's only season of note (as far as being a "top defenseman") was 1996-97, when he finished 3rd in Norris voting. Konstantinov was second. Konstantinov had finished fourth the prior year. He would not play another season due to the limo accident that ended his career.

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03-05-2013, 08:35 AM
  #36
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I have absolutely no problem with mention of Konstantinov, he is popular choice on many list and his skills are widely recognized (if not overrated).

However, I can't resist to reply and just can't buy whole your Konstantinov over Ozolinsh thing, especially in DPE thread. You may argue that Vlad's peak is higher, altough even that could be discussed, but no way Ozolinsh DPE stretch is worse than Vlad's one.
Sandis scored about 4 times more points than Vlad played games. Calling Vlad's DPE stretch better is non-sense.

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03-05-2013, 08:39 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
I have absolutely no problem with mention of Konstantinov, he is popular choice on many list and his skills are widely recognized (if not overrated).

However, I can't resist to reply and just can't buy whole your Konstantinov over Ozolinsh thing, especially in DPE thread. You may argue that Vlad's peak is higher, altough even that could be discussed, but no way Ozolinsh DPE stretch is worse than Vlad's one.
Sandis scored about 4 times more points than Vlad played games. Calling Vlad's DPE stretch better is non-sense.
Ozolinsh got 1 80th place vote in the 1st round of the Top 60 defensemen project. Konstantinov appeared on 17 out of 23 1st round lists and had an average ranking of 61. The general consensus about them isn't even close.

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