HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Pittsburgh Penguins
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Cole's Plus/Minus: The Sid, Fleury, & Geno Show (Pens vs. Lightning)

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-05-2013, 10:39 AM
  #226
Mr Jiggyfly
Registered User
 
Mr Jiggyfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 14,582
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by alcanalz View Post
If you truly believe this then I seriously question your judgment regarding hockey players and their play.
I couldn't care less what you question. I watch both players a ton and stick by what I said.

Kessel works his balls off and has a bad rap for no reason. Neal is playing uninspired hockey and his compete level is not even close to Kessel's level right now. Currently, it is night and day between these two.

Anyone who takes off their homerific glasses can see that.

Mr Jiggyfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 10:51 AM
  #227
alcanalz
whys and wherefores
 
alcanalz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,692
vCash: 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I couldn't care less what you question. I watch both players a ton and stick by what I said.

Kessel works his balls off and has a bad rap for no reason. Neal is playing uninspired hockey and his compete level is not even close to Kessel's level right now. Currently, it is night and day between these two.

Anyone who takes off their homerific glasses can see that.
You're just being a huge hater if you believe Kessel works as hard as anyone, because that's ridiculous. I live in TO, I watch a ton of Leaf games, that's a ridiculous claim to try and support your own. Of all the people to compare to and say that Neal plays "uninspired", well, you sure picked the wrong one.

Neal could work harder but he still works pretty hard. He backchecks real hard. What we would like to see is more hitting in the corners and work down low but he's still not bad in terms of effort. Get real.

alcanalz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 10:56 AM
  #228
Superstar Shane
Registered User
 
Superstar Shane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 2,926
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I couldn't care less what you question. I watch both players a ton and stick by what I said.

Kessel works his balls off and has a bad rap for no reason. Neal is playing uninspired hockey and his compete level is not even close to Kessel's level right now. Currently, it is night and day between these two.

Anyone who takes off their homerific glasses can see that.
Might I suggest you rephrase this bit?

Superstar Shane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 10:59 AM
  #229
Mr Jiggyfly
Registered User
 
Mr Jiggyfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 14,582
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
I wouldn't call Malkin an exceptional board player, but I will agree that it's a little hard to do all the forechecking and cycling for your line. It wasn't as bad last night, but that may have had a lot to do with Geno going into 'I'm playing Tampa Bay God Mode'.

Even last night, third period, there was a 30 second sequence where Geno was ragging the puck low in the offensive zone against 3 Bolts players working switch offs and double teams, and Cooke and Neal may as well have pulled out the popcorn for all they were doing to help.

That said, I do agree a little with RRP that the player you think (IMO, rightfully) Neal can be isn't really a player he's ever consistently been. Must end post now . . . convulsions starting.
I'm struggling to think of a better board player in the league than Malkin. He has an innate understanding for leverage, it's rare he comes off the boards in a 1-1 without the puck, he has great instincts for cycling and he is a master of using the boards to protect the puck.

As far as Neal, once again, any player is capable of giving 100% effort on every shift. Whether they decide to do it or not is up to them. Unfortunately, Neal has decided this season he doesn't have to work hard. That's on him.

Anyone who thinks he isn't capable of doing what he did in the first period last night, every game, is just making excuses for him. It is simply a matter of effort. Nothing more.

Mr Jiggyfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 11:03 AM
  #230
Captain Hook
Olli Määttä
 
Captain Hook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 13,485
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I couldn't care less what you question. I watch both players a ton and stick by what I said.

Kessel works his balls off and has a bad rap for no reason. Neal is playing uninspired hockey and his compete level is not even close to Kessel's level right now. Currently, it is night and day between these two.

Anyone who takes off their homerific glasses can see that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superstar Shane View Post
Might I suggest you rephrase this bit?

Captain Hook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 11:03 AM
  #231
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 27,500
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I'm struggling to think of a better board player in the league than Malkin. He has an innate understanding for leverage, it's rare he comes off the boards in a 1-1 without the puck, he has great instincts for cycling and he is a master of using the boards to protect the puck.

As far as Neal, once again, any player is capable of giving 100% effort on every shift. Whether they decide to do it or not is up to them. Unfortunately, Neal has decided this season he doesn't have to work hard. That's on him.

Anyone who thinks he isn't capable of doing what he did in the first period last night, every game, is just making excuses for him. It is simply a matter of effort. Nothing more.
Whether it's effort or something else, I think we're in agreement that Neal makes who plays on Geno's other wing relevant. And, if I'm reading you right, you're saying it shouldn't be that way.

FWIW, before Malkin got concussed, I was arguing that, aside from the shot, Neal brought less to the table than Kunitz or Dupuis do for Sid.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 11:05 AM
  #232
Mr Jiggyfly
Registered User
 
Mr Jiggyfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 14,582
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by alcanalz View Post
You're just being a huge hater if you believe Kessel works as hard as anyone, because that's ridiculous. I live in TO, I watch a ton of Leaf games, that's a ridiculous claim to try and support your own. Of all the people to compare to and say that Neal plays "uninspired", well, you sure picked the wrong one.

Neal could work harder but he still works pretty hard. He backchecks real hard. What we would like to see is more hitting in the corners and work down low but he's still not bad in terms of effort. Get real.
I said Kessel is working harder than Neal is working this season. At no point did I say he works harder than "anyone".

His chemistry with JVR and the success of that line is a direct result of his work. Kessel is backchecking, working hard along the boards, racing to loose pucks and even playing the body more than he ever has.

Trying to say Neal is working harder than Kessel is a load of garbage.

Mr Jiggyfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 11:07 AM
  #233
Mr Jiggyfly
Registered User
 
Mr Jiggyfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 14,582
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superstar Shane View Post
Might I suggest you rephrase this bit?
He works his.... Sack off...

Mr Jiggyfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 11:12 AM
  #234
alcanalz
whys and wherefores
 
alcanalz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,692
vCash: 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I said Kessel is working harder than Neal is working this season. At no point did I say he works harder than "anyone".

His chemistry with JVR and the success of that line is a direct result of his work. Kessel is backchecking, working hard along the boards, racing to loose pucks and even playing the body more than he ever has.

Trying to say Neal is working harder than Kessel is a load of garbage.
That's just blatantly not true, agree to disagree.

alcanalz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 11:13 AM
  #235
Til the End of Time
Registered User
 
Til the End of Time's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Buenos Aires
Posts: 7,021
vCash: 500
can anyone comment on neal's effort level in dallas before his suspension?

i know he was much more of a power forward and consistent physical presence prior to that suspension. but did his "effort level" also decline after that incident, or was he always a occasionally lazy player?

Til the End of Time is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 11:15 AM
  #236
Mr Jiggyfly
Registered User
 
Mr Jiggyfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 14,582
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Whether it's effort or something else, I think we're in agreement that Neal makes who plays on Geno's other wing relevant. And, if I'm reading you right, you're saying it shouldn't be that way.

FWIW, before Malkin got concussed, I was arguing that, aside from the shot, Neal brought less to the table than Kunitz or Dupuis do for Sid.
Neal caused complete chaos for TB and forced four turnovers in his first three shifts. The entire period he was separating guys from pucks and allowing Malkin to freelance and pounce on those pucks.

Yet we have people delusional enough to think he isn't capable of doing this stuff every game. Why? Does he run on Cat batteries?

It's mind boggling how people want to defend his play just because he is scoring goals. We expect Malkin, Crosby, Kunitz and Duper to bring it every game, but it is unfair to expect that from Neal? Wtf is that?

No player can be on every game for an entire season, it's unrealistic. However, Neal hasn't even put together back to back games of all out effort the entire season. How people can defend that is ridiculous.

Mr Jiggyfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 11:16 AM
  #237
mpp9
Registered User
 
mpp9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 17,587
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
can anyone comment on neal's effort level in dallas before his suspension?

i know he was much more of a power forward and consistent physical presence prior to that suspension. but did his "effort level" also decline after that incident, or was he always a occasionally lazy player?
You don't need to go that far back. When he came over in the trade, he was a monster on the forecheck and was a major factor for us winning games despite his scoring slump.

I'd like that Neal back. The goals will come.

mpp9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 11:18 AM
  #238
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 27,500
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
can anyone comment on neal's effort level in dallas before his suspension?

i know he was much more of a power forward and consistent physical presence prior to that suspension. but did his "effort level" also decline after that incident, or was he always a occasionally lazy player?
He wasn't a 24/7 cannonball, but he played like a 220 pound player (i.e., showed signs of developing into a true PF rather than a bigger Petr Sykora).

I'm not saying that to diminish from what Neal does well. I'm just answering your question to the best of my recollection . . . when Dallas dealt Neal, they viewed him, rather than Benn, as expendable because Benn was an emerging PF and Neal was seen as an inconsistent high end finisher who sometimes would bring it and use his size and give you those PF flashes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
You don't need to go that far back. When he came over in the trade, he was a monster on the forecheck and was a major factor for us winning games despite his scoring slump.

I'd like that Neal back. The goals will come.
That's the player Neal was in Dallas before the suspension. Aside from the goals, the Neal you've seen this year is the Neal from Dallas after the suspension.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 11:18 AM
  #239
Mr Jiggyfly
Registered User
 
Mr Jiggyfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 14,582
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by alcanalz View Post
That's just blatantly not true, agree to disagree.
No, it is.

The difference is Neal is a Penguin and Kessel is a Leaf, so obviously it can't be true.

Mr Jiggyfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 11:20 AM
  #240
mpp9
Registered User
 
mpp9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 17,587
vCash: 500
Bennett playing with Malkin and Neal also becomes a lot more plausible if Neal plays the type of game he's capable of. Hunt pucks down, be a physical presence. You've got two great playmakers on your line, they'll find you.

mpp9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 11:26 AM
  #241
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 27,500
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Bennett playing with Malkin and Neal also becomes a lot more plausible if Neal plays the type of game he's capable of. Hunt pucks down, be a physical presence. You've got two great playmakers on your line, they'll find you.
That is a real big IF right now.

If it doesn't happen, then having Dangles as the other winger puts Geno in a bad spot and doesn't help Dangles development.

The spot for Dangles is with Sid and Kunitz.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 11:44 AM
  #242
wgknestrick
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,943
vCash: 500
Depres is quickly becoming our 2nd best defender out there IMO. He was everywhere last night. His physical play has infinitely improved. I see him winning so many more pucks along the boards.

MAF played well for the most part. I was pretty frustrated with the 2nd goal (I thought he would've easily saved it had he been in proper position, on his feet). The save on the 1 timer though was highlight worthy.

Orpik on the other hand has played his way into being traded IMO. Orpik for Scuderi...start the rumors. Can someone photoshop his "free candy" van to say "free turnovers"?

I still don't get why Bortz sits out. He has the 3rd best +- rate of all the Pen's D and would only get better with more ice time. I see no reason not to have him in rotation to give a D man a break (cough Orpik,) every other weak.

wgknestrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 12:34 PM
  #243
AquaticBirdman
Gladams FTW!
 
AquaticBirdman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Montreal, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,219
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
Depres is quickly becoming our 2nd best defender out there IMO. He was everywhere last night. His physical play has infinitely improved. I see him winning so many more pucks along the boards.

MAF played well for the most part. I was pretty frustrated with the 2nd goal (I thought he would've easily saved it had he been in proper position, on his feet). The save on the 1 timer though was highlight worthy.

Orpik on the other hand has played his way into being traded IMO. Orpik for Scuderi...start the rumors. Can someone photoshop his "free candy" van to say "free turnovers"?

I still don't get why Bortz sits out. He has the 3rd best +- rate of all the Pen's D and would only get better with more ice time. I see no reason not to have him in rotation to give a D man a break (cough Orpik,) every other weak.
Bort was pretty much the sacrificial lamb in favor of Eaton. And speaking of which, I was pleased to see that Eaton held his own quite well last night as well. The man is still slow as hell and is as useless as they come with the puck on his stick, but he's still great in terms of his defensive-zone positioning/man-marking and he still doesn't give up on a play.

Agree whole-heartedly about Orpik too. The man has become pretty useless if he's not pummeling guys along the boards.

AquaticBirdman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 12:50 PM
  #244
Shady Machine
Registered User
 
Shady Machine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,541
vCash: 500
Yeah honestly Eaton was a breath of fresh air in terms of coverage in the d-zone last night. He sure as hell wasn't leaving guys wide open in front like Orpik or Letang.

Shady Machine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 01:14 PM
  #245
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
**** You, Duthie
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 42,473
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
First of all, Kunitz is a pretty good board player, not an exceptional one. Lets keep the exaggerating to a minimum. That's twice in as many posts.

And once again, no one expects Neal to become anyone except the player he has already shown he is capable of being.

Trying to exaggerate for effect and making excuses for Neal isn't very convincing.
Semantics aside, that and his forechecking are obviously his bread and butter. It is not Neal's.

If it were and he played his absolute best for 3 periods every night, we wouldn't have gotten him for 5 mil per.

Quote:
So it is your estimation that he didn't honestly come by his -4, and it was just a big coincidence the second line couldn't score at ES, and yet an even bigger coincidence DB removed him from Crosby's line. None of this had anything to do with Neal dogging it most of the season?

I guess DB figured Crosby needed his big PF, Dupuis, back.
Oh, so now you're using DB's decisions as an argument to authority eh? That's convenient.

Malkin's a -3. I think that line's +/- is in good part a result of Malkin's poor puck management in the danger areas, to be honest.

Quote:
Malkin is an exceptional board player but he can't cycle with himself. Neal has shown again and again he can do everything I expect from him, but he most certainly isn't doing it this season.

I guess he drank some gummy bear juice before the first period last night. I mean, there is no way we should expect that kind of effort for a full game, let alone an entire season.

It's not fair, right? He scores goals.
Malkin's no better along the boards than Neal, which is a big reason why that line can't sustain much offensive zone pressure this year. He's great with the puck on his stick, but he's not very good in the 50/50 battles.

Quote:
All of those guys hit more than Neal and play harder than Neal. And saying you prefer Neal over the likes of Lucic and Kane is borderline ridiculous.
That's just a blatant lie, haha.

And yes, I would rather have Neal than Lucic or Kane. Whatever their other advantages, Neals' shot and instincts have tremendous value.

Quote:
Right because Neal isn't taking stupid, lazy penalties and he is giving it his all every shift for his teammates.
Malkin has nearly twice as many stupid, lazy penalties as Neal.

Quote:
Perry doesn't have some magic powers that makes him better than Neal. He isn't a dynamic skater or anymore physically imposing. The difference is he does all of the little things needed to win. He agitates, goes to the net, finishes his checks and knows how to finish.
Perry is a much more skilled player than Neal, which is why he's going to make 2+ mil more than Neal on his next contract .

Quote:
Just excuse after excuse for Neal. Keep them coming.
Neal doesn't require excuses. Tell me more about how your diamond shoes are too tight, Jiggy.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 01:36 PM
  #246
SidGenoMario
Registered User
 
SidGenoMario's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Saskatoon, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,263
vCash: 511
You guys have a way with words.

SidGenoMario is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 01:48 PM
  #247
metalan2
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 5,161
vCash: 500
Fleury had a fairly easy game. I have no idea why he is praised like a god for a normal performance.


The Pens at least doubled the Lightning chances last night. Tampa's goaltending kept this thing close.


I think Errey is honestly on to something when he says Kennedy has to play with a left handed center.

metalan2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 01:57 PM
  #248
wolffy66
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 237
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by metalan2 View Post
Fleury had a fairly easy game. I have no idea why he is praised like a god for a normal performance.


The Pens at least doubled the Lightning chances last night. Tampa's goaltending kept this thing close.


I think Errey is honestly on to something when he says Kennedy has to play with a left handed center.
Preferably one in a different sweater.

wolffy66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 01:59 PM
  #249
mpp9
Registered User
 
mpp9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 17,587
vCash: 500
TK needs a change of scenery and a center who's more dominant along the boards.

mpp9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 02:26 PM
  #250
Mr Jiggyfly
Registered User
 
Mr Jiggyfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 14,582
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Semantics aside, that and his forechecking are obviously his bread and butter. It is not Neal's.

If it were and he played his absolute best for 3 periods every night, we wouldn't have gotten him for 5 mil per.
Neal was already playing hard AND scoring goals when they locked him up last season. Why do you continue to use this lame excuse to support an already weak argument?

I suppose when you are grasping at straws....

Quote:
Oh, so now you're using DB's decisions as an argument to authority eh? That's convenient.
I'm one of the rare few has been defending him since last Summer, should I blindly agree with all of his decisions?

Again, if DB, who loves his vets, took Neal off the Crosby line, that is a direct indictment of his play. Arguing otherwise is ridiculous. He was hurting that line and had to be removed. Deal with it or make up more excuses for him.

Quote:
Malkin's a -3. I think that line's +/- is in good part a result of Malkin's poor puck management in the danger areas, to be honest.
Or the blown assignments Neal has made a routine of since the start of the season. Take your pick.

And once again, what does Malkin have to do with Neal being taken off of Crosby's line?

Let's not let facts get in the way of blatant homerism though.

Quote:
Malkin's no better along the boards than Neal, which is a big reason why that line can't sustain much offensive zone pressure this year. He's great with the puck on his stick, but he's not very good in the 50/50 battles.
Malkin is one of the best board players in the league. Saying he is isn't good in 50/50 battles is absurd. That has long been his strength since his Metallurg days.

Quote:
That's just a blatant lie, haha.
How the hell is that a lie? The three players you "agreed" on: Lucic, Kane and Hartnell all had at least 50 more hits than Neal last season.

You can blow off Backes, but he had around twice as many hits as Neal last season as well.

Quote:
And yes, I would rather have Neal than Lucic or Kane. Whatever their other advantages, Neals' shot and instincts have tremendous value.
Those homer glasses are on way too tight.

Quote:
Malkin has nearly twice as many stupid, lazy penalties as Neal.
This is about Neal, not Malkin. I also said before Malkin needs to smarten up, but he scores goals, so it's ok.

Quote:
Perry is a much more skilled player than Neal, which is why he's going to make 2+ mil more than Neal on his next contract
Perry gets most of his goals by going to the net and getting his nose dirty. There is no reason Neal can't play a similar game. As we saw last night (for one period) he is unreal when he actually feels like trying.

Quote:
Neal doesn't require excuses. Tell me more about how your diamond shoes are too tight, Jiggy.
The kaleidoscope keeps things looking pretty, so it's tough to put it down. It's ok if reality scares you.

The facts show Malkin's line is struggling to score at ES and Neal got booted from the top line by his coach. Too bad you can't connect the dots.

Expecting him to pick up his play and work harder may be offensive to you, but he has shown in the past he can be a disruptive force when he is actually trying.

Wanting him to be that player again is far from nitpicking and jumping on his case for no reason. Without that player back, this team will have a hell of a time making a cup run.


Last edited by Mr Jiggyfly: 03-05-2013 at 02:33 PM.
Mr Jiggyfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:10 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.