HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Notices

2012-2013 Rangers Prospects Thread (Player Stats in Post #1; Updated 3/11) *Part II*

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-05-2013, 02:03 PM
  #826
Trxjw
Moderator
Bored.
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Land of no calls..
Country: United States
Posts: 16,372
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadwayStorm View Post
I don't get why Michael St. Croix is so underrated around here. The kid is not big but he's been tearing it up the last 2 years and no one takes him seriously. Is he not a Danny Briere type if he reaches potential?
Mid round pick and hasn't impressed at prospect camp. He's also a top-six or bust player in every sense. I like the kid, but I can see why others might not.

Trxjw is offline  
Old
03-05-2013, 02:16 PM
  #827
Bluenote13
Believe In Henke
 
Bluenote13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: BKLYN, NYC
Posts: 23,635
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Serious question: which of our prospects are you excited about, BN?
I really like Lindberg and Fasth. Lindberg is a guy who I think gets overshadowed by Fasth and his exciting play. I just really like a forward who battles in the faceoff dot and plays a two way game. If we're lucky they will both be difference makers that we need coming from the bottom lines.

McIlrath is doing very well for his age and coming off an injury. Glad to see the improvement and the maturity, does not seem to take penalties I thought he'd be taking with his size and reputation. Also, I've not given up on Christian Thomas, very encouraged by his recent play. Still has room to grow. Both of these guys are the long term assets I hope just get a cup of coffee right now, battle for roster spots come September.

St. Croix is a guy I liked in his draft, was glad to have him, just not sure how he will transfer over to pro game.

Looking early at the '11 draft looks promising. Miller looks like a player but it will be interesting to see if some of the names picked right after him become even better. Same with Brady Skjei. Still very early.

I have high hopes for Nieves and Fogarty but 1 out of the 2 not bad.

Bluenote13 is offline  
Old
03-05-2013, 02:48 PM
  #828
SnowblindNYR
Registered User
 
SnowblindNYR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 17,218
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
I really like Lindberg and Fasth. Lindberg is a guy who I think gets overshadowed by Fasth and his exciting play. I just really like a forward who battles in the faceoff dot and plays a two way game. If we're lucky they will both be difference makers that we need coming from the bottom lines.

McIlrath is doing very well for his age and coming off an injury. Glad to see the improvement and the maturity, does not seem to take penalties I thought he'd be taking with his size and reputation. Also, I've not given up on Christian Thomas, very encouraged by his recent play. Still has room to grow. Both of these guys are the long term assets I hope just get a cup of coffee right now, battle for roster spots come September.

St. Croix is a guy I liked in his draft, was glad to have him, just not sure how he will transfer over to pro game.

Looking early at the '11 draft looks promising. Miller looks like a player but it will be interesting to see if some of the names picked right after him become even better. Same with Brady Skjei. Still very early.

I have high hopes for Nieves and Fogarty but 1 out of the 2 not bad.

I hope you mean this year because I'll be disappointed if Fasth tops out as a bottom 6 player.

SnowblindNYR is offline  
Old
03-05-2013, 02:51 PM
  #829
Bluenote13
Believe In Henke
 
Bluenote13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: BKLYN, NYC
Posts: 23,635
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
I hope you mean this year because I'll be disappointed if Fasth tops out as a bottom 6 player.
I'm being conservative. Ya know, they gotta start somewhere, then let's talk top lines.

Bluenote13 is offline  
Old
03-05-2013, 03:21 PM
  #830
Beacon
Sent to HF Minors
 
Beacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 8,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Mid round pick and hasn't impressed at prospect camp.

Yeah, but he was just drafted at the time. Look at Thomas, he failed to impress in the same camp also, and CT is a year older. CT continued to struggle through his first half a season in the AHL. Yet, he's now doing well and has already been called up.

Saying that St. Croix didn't impress in September 2011 means very little in March 2013. It's been a full year and a half, with many reports coming in that he's shown decent improvement since then.

I'm not saying he is a blue chip prospect, but let's not discount him completely until we have the chance to see him. He's one of the few offensively skilled prospects we have.

People are taking about Mash, Haley, even Palm, and yet, MSC has more value than all of them combined. The kid is still very much a top-10 prospect for us.

He's one of only 4 kids in our farm system who has the potential to develop into a player who scores 60+ points. (Kreider, Fasth and Thomas are the other three.)

Beacon is offline  
Old
03-05-2013, 03:32 PM
  #831
Kwayry
Take the damn deal
 
Kwayry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Plano
Country: United States
Posts: 2,914
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beacon View Post
Yeah, but he was just drafted at the time. Look at Thomas, he failed to impress in the same camp also, and CT is a year older. CT continued to struggle through his first half a season in the AHL. Yet, he's now doing well and has already been called up.

Saying that St. Croix didn't impress in September 2011 means very little in March 2013. It's been a full year and a half, with many reports coming in that he's shown decent improvement since then.

I'm not saying he is a blue chip prospect, but let's not discount him completely until we have the chance to see him. He's one of the few offensively skilled prospects we have.

People are taking about Mash, Haley, even Palm, and yet, MSC has more value than all of them combined. The kid is still very much a top-10 prospect for us.

He's one of only 4 kids in our farm system who has the potential to develop into a player who scores 60+ points. (Kreider, Fasth and Thomas are the other three.)
Thank you.

Kwayry is offline  
Old
03-05-2013, 03:34 PM
  #832
Beacon
Sent to HF Minors
 
Beacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 8,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Looking early at the '11 draft looks promising. Miller looks like a player but it will be interesting to see if some of the names picked right after him become even better.

That's not fair. You can't expect our scouts to draft the guy who turns out to be the best player because that's awfully hard to predict. About half of the kids drafted at #15 don't even make the NHL, so if Miller becomes a quality third liner who scores 15+25=40, that's a great selection, regardless of anything else.

Furthermore, Miller was NOT drafted to turn out to be the best player available. People are acting like every player is ranked based on their potential with everyone having the same odds of reaching that potential. That's false.

Miller was a "safe" pick. Therefore, by definition, he's not going to turn out to be the best player available at #15. There will be someone who was regarded as high-risk, high-return - someone you didn't want because he was small or injured or whatever - and that player will wind up turning into the best player. Sure, not every high-risk player will succeed, but it will be these players, among those who succeed, will be the best ones available at #15.

Beacon is offline  
Old
03-05-2013, 03:35 PM
  #833
Trxjw
Moderator
Bored.
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Land of no calls..
Country: United States
Posts: 16,372
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beacon View Post
Yeah, but he was just drafted at the time. Look at Thomas, he failed to impress in the same camp also, and CT is a year older. CT continued to struggle through his first half a season in the AHL. Yet, he's now doing well and has already been called up.

Saying that St. Croix didn't impress in September 2011 means very little in March 2013. It's been a full year and a half, with many reports coming in that he's shown decent improvement since then.

I'm not saying he is a blue chip prospect, but let's not discount him completely until we have the chance to see him. He's one of the few offensively skilled prospects we have.

People are taking about Mash, Haley, even Palm, and yet, MSC has more value than all of them combined. The kid is still very much a top-10 prospect for us.

He's one of only 4 kids in our farm system who has the potential to develop into a player who scores 60+ points. (Kreider, Fasth and Thomas are the other three.)
You're talking to a guy who called MSC the most talented offensive player we have in the system. All I was saying is that the things I mentioned might be the reason some aren't as high on him as other prospects. 95% of the people on this board have never watched the kid play. The moment they hear "hasn't looked great" from someone watching Traverse City live, they abandon ship.

Trxjw is offline  
Old
03-05-2013, 03:39 PM
  #834
BrooklynRangersFan
Change is good.
 
BrooklynRangersFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Brooklyn of course
Country: United States
Posts: 10,123
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
I really like Lindberg and Fasth. Lindberg is a guy who I think gets overshadowed by Fasth and his exciting play. I just really like a forward who battles in the faceoff dot and plays a two way game. If we're lucky they will both be difference makers that we need coming from the bottom lines.

McIlrath is doing very well for his age and coming off an injury. Glad to see the improvement and the maturity, does not seem to take penalties I thought he'd be taking with his size and reputation. Also, I've not given up on Christian Thomas, very encouraged by his recent play. Still has room to grow. Both of these guys are the long term assets I hope just get a cup of coffee right now, battle for roster spots come September.

St. Croix is a guy I liked in his draft, was glad to have him, just not sure how he will transfer over to pro game.

Looking early at the '11 draft looks promising. Miller looks like a player but it will be interesting to see if some of the names picked right after him become even better. Same with Brady Skjei. Still very early.

I have high hopes for Nieves and Fogarty but 1 out of the 2 not bad.
Interesting - thanks for sharing.

Particularly enjoyed hearing your take on McIlrath given how much you've challenged Beacon on his reports - I thought you were more down on him, but it's now clear you're just looking for more objective assessments.

BrooklynRangersFan is offline  
Old
03-05-2013, 03:43 PM
  #835
Bluenote13
Believe In Henke
 
Bluenote13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: BKLYN, NYC
Posts: 23,635
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beacon View Post
That's not fair. You can't expect our scouts to draft the guy who turns out to be the best player because that's awfully hard to predict. About half of the kids drafted at #15 don't even make the NHL, so if Miller becomes a quality third liner who scores 15+25=40, that's a great selection, regardless of anything else.

Furthermore, Miller was NOT drafted to turn out to be the best player available. People are acting like every player is ranked based on their potential with everyone having the same odds of reaching that potential. That's false.

Miller was a "safe" pick. Therefore, by definition, he's not going to turn out to be the best player available at #15. There will be someone who was regarded as high-risk, high-return - someone you didn't want because he was small or injured or whatever - and that player will wind up turning into the best player. Sure, not every high-risk player will succeed, but it will be these players, among those who succeed, will be the best ones available at #15.
It's certainly fair to question the GM and scouts when they consistently prove they cannot draft a top line player. Always opting to take the Millers and Mcilrath's who at the time of draft and now don't project to be top minute top line talents, yet teams drafting after us take the BPA and that player has top line potential.

Not like we're talking 4 rounds later Detroit takes a blue chip Euro, I'm talking the next dozen picks after ours.

Bluenote13 is offline  
Old
03-05-2013, 03:56 PM
  #836
Bluenote13
Believe In Henke
 
Bluenote13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: BKLYN, NYC
Posts: 23,635
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Interesting - thanks for sharing.

Particularly enjoyed hearing your take on McIlrath given how much you've challenged Beacon on his reports - I thought you were more down on him, but it's now clear you're just looking for more objective assessments.
My thing with McI is not with him, it's our GM/scouts/staff who thought that he was the best player available. I've chosen to hold them to that. IF he fails, the failure goes to the ones who thought he'd be more than he was gonna be, cause besides the size, toughness, and fact that Gaborik got beatup that year, there was little else to that pick.

I totally root for him to succeed, I just hold a top draft pick to a high standard, I don't want them to just be on the team, I want them to make a difference at least more times than not.

Bluenote13 is offline  
Old
03-05-2013, 04:03 PM
  #837
TheRedViper
Registered User
 
TheRedViper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Niagara
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,292
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
It's certainly fair to question the GM and scouts when they consistently prove they cannot draft a top line player. Always opting to take the Millers and Mcilrath's who at the time of draft and now don't project to be top minute top line talents, yet teams drafting after us take the BPA and that player has top line potential.

Not like we're talking 4 rounds later Detroit takes a blue chip Euro, I'm talking the next dozen picks after ours.
Agreed, I like the way most of our picks have gone, but it doesn't seem like we ever shoot for the moon with our picks.

TheRedViper is offline  
Old
03-05-2013, 04:11 PM
  #838
Beacon
Sent to HF Minors
 
Beacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 8,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
It's certainly fair to question the GM and scouts when they consistently prove they cannot draft a top line player.

Every draft, literally every draft I call for high-risk, high-return prospects and this whole forum lambasts me for it. Why? Because people want to pretend that at #15 or even at #28, they can draft a player without flaws, as if there's no reason they slipped that far down. It's easier to pretend that someone doesn't have the offensive ability ("he's scoring almost a point per game in the OHL") than to pretend that a 5-11 player is really 6-2.


The Rangers like this strategy too. They prefer to get at least one player per draft, knowing that he may not turn into anything special, but hey, at least we'll have a guy like Dubinsky, Anisimov, Miller.

Their strategy works in the sense that they do get these kinds of players on a consistent basis. But if you are drafting Miller, don't be expecting Giroux. You have to take the risk of a strikeout if you are hoping to hit a homerun.

I like the idea of taking someone whose flaw may be something other than offensive skill. Others here are outraged at this thought. Sure in theory, they are ok with high-risk, high-return prospects, but as soon as a real flaw (other than offense) is identified, everyone here is horrified and wants to stay as far away from that draftee as possible.

Keep drafting Miller and you'll keep getting Miller.

Beacon is offline  
Old
03-05-2013, 04:39 PM
  #839
Pizza
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 9,918
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beacon View Post
Every draft, literally every draft I call for high-risk, high-return prospects and this whole forum lambasts me for it. Why? Because people want to pretend that at #15 or even at #28, they can draft a player without flaws, as if there's no reason they slipped that far down. It's easier to pretend that someone doesn't have the offensive ability ("he's scoring almost a point per game in the OHL") than to pretend that a 5-11 player is really 6-2.


The Rangers like this strategy too. They prefer to get at least one player per draft, knowing that he may not turn into anything special, but hey, at least we'll have a guy like Dubinsky, Anisimov, Miller.

Their strategy works in the sense that they do get these kinds of players on a consistent basis. But if you are drafting Miller, don't be expecting Giroux. You have to take the risk of a strikeout if you are hoping to hit a homerun.

I like the idea of taking someone whose flaw may be something other than offensive skill. Others here are outraged at this thought. Sure in theory, they are ok with high-risk, high-return prospects, but as soon as a real flaw (other than offense) is identified, everyone here is horrified and wants to stay as far away from that draftee as possible.

Keep drafting Miller and you'll keep getting Miller.
What is wrong with Miller Beacon?

Pizza is offline  
Old
03-05-2013, 05:06 PM
  #840
wolfgaze
Interesting Cat
 
wolfgaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,055
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
It's certainly fair to question the GM and scouts when they consistently prove they cannot draft a top line player. Always opting to take the Millers and Mcilrath's who at the time of draft and now don't project to be top minute top line talents, yet teams drafting after us take the BPA and that player has top line potential.

Not like we're talking 4 rounds later Detroit takes a blue chip Euro, I'm talking the next dozen picks after ours.
Best Player/Pick Available (BPA) is a highly subjective term/concept.

Is the BPA the player with the highest potential/ceiling or the player most likely to reach his projected potential/ceiling? It's not so black and white but rather open to interpretation.

wolfgaze is offline  
Old
03-05-2013, 05:47 PM
  #841
Beacon
Sent to HF Minors
 
Beacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 8,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
What is wrong with Miller Beacon?

Nothing is wrong with Miller, but he's not going to be a game breaking 85 point player. He wasn't drafted to be such a player. At #15, you can either go for a nice player who'll likely be a 2-3 liner or you can go for someone who might become a point per game producer or a bust. Miller was the former. If you draft the former, don't expect ppg scorers.

Beacon is offline  
Old
03-05-2013, 05:58 PM
  #842
Bluenote13
Believe In Henke
 
Bluenote13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: BKLYN, NYC
Posts: 23,635
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Best Player/Pick Available (BPA) is a highly subjective term/concept.

Is the BPA the player with the highest potential/ceiling or the player most likely to reach his projected potential/ceiling? It's not so black and white but rather open to interpretation.
There is usually a consensus among guys who do this for a living in every sport. When teams go 'off the board' what do you think that means?

Bluenote13 is offline  
Old
03-05-2013, 06:09 PM
  #843
wolfgaze
Interesting Cat
 
wolfgaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,055
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
There is usually a consensus among guys who do this for a living in every sport. When teams go 'off the board' what do you think that means?
Are you making an appeal to a higher authority here?

I asked if the BPA should be deemed the player with the highest ceiling or perhaps a player who is more likely to reach his potential/ceiling despite it not being the highest among the available players? Maybe the answer lies somwhere in between?

It's a grey area is it not?

If there was a consensus among scouts across various teams you would not see instances of teams trading up to grab players they did not anticipate would still be available and you would not read accounts after the fact from analysts and player personnel who were surprised that a player fell in the draft. How often do the players get drafted in close accordance to the outline of the mock drafts presented by ISS and various scouting services/agencies??? How many times have players have fallen out of the rounds they were projected to be drafted in or been drafted ahead of the rounds they were projected to be selected in?

It's clear to me there is not a general consensus among people who do this for a living. Ever watch the organizational meetings for the Oilers on the NHL network leading up to their draft(s)? Lots of player personnel with varying opinions trying to state the case for their opinion of the BPA in each round and they're certainly not always in agreement.


Last edited by wolfgaze: 03-06-2013 at 10:21 AM.
wolfgaze is offline  
Old
03-05-2013, 06:14 PM
  #844
MidnightRanger
Registered User
 
MidnightRanger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New York City
Country: United States
Posts: 1,439
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to MidnightRanger
We don't have a first this year but I really wish we could draft an offensive diva that booms or busts every once in a while. I want a Henrik Zetterberg or a Datsyuk in the 5th round. Is that too much to ask? Is Lundqvist the only Euro pick were gonna luck out with? No more Zidlicky's for us?

MidnightRanger is offline  
Old
03-05-2013, 07:34 PM
  #845
Beacon
Sent to HF Minors
 
Beacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 8,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadwayStorm View Post
We don't have a first this year but I really wish we could draft an offensive diva that booms or busts every once in a while. I want a Henrik Zetterberg or a Datsyuk in the 5th round. Is that too much to ask? Is Lundqvist the only Euro pick were gonna luck out with? No more Zidlicky's for us?

That diva might be Fasth. But in any event, if let's use our second to draft another Christian Thomas. I know it won't happen though because the Rangers are dead set on drafting at least one guaranteed NHLer every draft.

Beacon is offline  
Old
03-06-2013, 09:30 AM
  #846
nyr2k2
Can't Beat Him
 
nyr2k2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Washington, DC
Country: United States
Posts: 22,792
vCash: 500
Awards:
Stats are updated in the first post. Sorry I've been slacking, I've been on the road for work quite a bit lately.

__________________

It's just pain.
nyr2k2 is online now  
Old
03-06-2013, 09:56 AM
  #847
SnowblindNYR
Registered User
 
SnowblindNYR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 17,218
vCash: 500
I notice Fasth has a really good +/-, is he a good defensive player?

SnowblindNYR is offline  
Old
03-06-2013, 10:24 AM
  #848
wolfgaze
Interesting Cat
 
wolfgaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,055
vCash: 500
How many games left in the SEL regular season approximately?

wolfgaze is offline  
Old
03-06-2013, 10:30 AM
  #849
nyr2k2
Can't Beat Him
 
nyr2k2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Washington, DC
Country: United States
Posts: 22,792
vCash: 500
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
How many games left in the SEL regular season approximately?
It ended yesterday.

nyr2k2 is online now  
Old
03-06-2013, 10:57 AM
  #850
Bardof425*
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,028
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
My thing with McI is not with him, it's our GM/scouts/staff who thought that he was the best player available. I've chosen to hold them to that. IF he fails, the failure goes to the ones who thought he'd be more than he was gonna be, cause besides the size, toughness, and fact that Gaborik got beatup that year, there was little else to that pick.

I totally root for him to succeed, I just hold a top draft pick to a high standard, I don't want them to just be on the team, I want them to make a difference at least more times than not.
The Rangers were not the only team that had McI ranked in the top 12. He seems to be on track; I think we'll end up being happy with the pick unless you wanted to take a risk on Tarasenko.

Bardof425* is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:22 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.