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Your opinion on rebuilding.

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Old
03-05-2013, 06:20 AM
  #51
Seanconn*
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I think getting value for Iginla now is the only option. best case scenario, Iginla plays elsewhere for next 3 years, doesn't win a cup, comes back to Calgary, wins a Cup in 2017. retires.

otherwise, I want to see Iggy win a cup. We are only going to get fair value for Iggy if we trade him to a team he'd want to play with for the next 3 seasons. Loading up on the 2013 might be the best thing the Flames could do. If it's anything like 2003, we could have a really deep pool of players. 3 first round picks should be the goal for 2013, and you can't do that without trading Iginla.

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03-05-2013, 07:30 AM
  #52
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My Opinion on Rebuilding
by Abbotsford Heat

Since the start of the 1994-95 season the New York Islanders and the NHL has seen 18 entry drafts and the Islanders have had 23 first round picks in those 18 drafts. 11 of those first round picks were in the top 5 and another 3 came in the top 10. Two of them were 1st overall picks. This has gotten the Islanders where? The answer is 3 playoff appearances resulting in 1st round losses, being the laughing stock of the NHL and a bus ticket to Brooklyn.

Since their inception the Thrashers/Jets franchise has participated in 14 entry drafts. In those 14 drafts the franchise has selected 15 players in the 1st round, 6 of those in the top 5 and 5 more between 6th and 10th. Two of them were 1st overall picks. And this got them where? 1 playoff appearance that had a 1st round departure and a bus ticket to Winnipeg.

The Florida Panthers have been involved in 20 NHL entry drafts since they were granted an expansion team. In 20 years the Panthers have had 22 picks in the first round, had 7 picks in the top 5 and an additional 4 in the top 10. One of them was a st overall pick. And this has gotten the Panthers where? 4 playoff appearances in 20 years.

I could also do this for Chicago (from 1996-97 to 2007-08), Columbus (since their inception), Los Angeles (from 1993-94 to 2010-11), Minnesota (since their inception) or Tampa Bay (since the lockout).

The point is this:

Being drafting a lot in the top 5 or 10 doesn't guarantee anything. You need to get the right picks at the right time. It doesn't matter if you are drafting 1st or 30th, if you draft well, trade well and make smart signings you will be fine. That is all the "rebuild" you need.

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Old
03-05-2013, 07:57 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawnofthedeadz View Post
[ They drafted Kopitar and Brown in the 11th and 13th round respectively.

(Side Note: Jarome Iginla was an 11th round pick by the Dallas Stars.)

Now lets look at the 04 run, we almost won the cup then and to some people should of won. The only players we had drafted and were part of our main core were Jordan Leopold (44th overall) and Robin Regeher (19th overall!

Corrections:
(1) Kopitar was the 11th pick, Brown 13th.

(2) Robin was drafted by Colorado and came to us in the Fleury trade.

BTW, we got Regeher and Iggy by trading veterans for prospects when we rebuilt the team.

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03-05-2013, 09:29 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawnofthedeadz View Post
~ Intro ~
~ The Value of Trades ~
No team has ever won with just draft picks either. But you are very wrong on the fact that no team has ever won based off trades. The Colorado Avalanche are the first example which comes to my head.

Even if you look at the LA Kings...Richards and Carter were picked up through trade. This not only shows that the flames have been terrible at drafting and how trades bring success but that blowing up a team is unnecessary.

(Side Note: Jarome Iginla was an 11th round pick by the Dallas Stars.)

Now lets look at the 04 run,
1) Picks 3-20 in a draft are a random gamble. Only time shows which players in the draft should have been rated "top 5". A team absolutely must have "top 5" talent to win the cup. The 2003 draft was one of the deepest in history. The Kings had Carter, Richards and Brown, forwards from the first round of the 2003 draft on their roster last year, and one from 2005 in Kopitar. So 4 solid gold first-round forwards. They also had to give up a lot to get Carter and Richards, including two top 5 picks in Jack Johnson and Brayden Schenn. The price for top 5 talent was younger top 5 talent. So yes you can win through trades, but you have to have assets. You also have to do very well in the draft.
If you examine the teams that win the Stanley Cup they all have a few things in common. They have "top 5" talent at most if not all positions, and they have drafted diamonds of their own. Either way, it is incredibly hard to win the Stanley Cup. Drafting in the top 3 or 5 gives you a theoretical head start. So rebuilding can work.

2) I wouldn't use an outlier like the 2004 Flames as an example here. They had the best goalie of that 5 year period and Jarome Iginla, but that team was not a cup contender. They were gutsy clutch and grab grinders. They almost won, but it would have been owed to adrenalin and tight checking more so than talent. Same argument for the Panthers in 1996, or the Ducks in 2003.

3) Iginla was picked 11th overall in 1995, but he should have been the 1st overall pick that year in hindsight.

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03-05-2013, 11:04 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
There's a misconception particularly inherent in Flames fan where the the phrase 'rebuilding' is synonymous with 'losing on purpose.'

The reality is not so. Rebuilding simply means to go in a different direction. As the previous approach wasn't working, it's time something else was tried. The veteran heavy emphasis has failed miserably and repeatedly, thus, it makes absolutely no sense to continue down that road. In this sense, rebuilding would simply mean a changing of the guard; out with the old and in with the new.

Tanking is common path rebuilding teams take, but it not the only option. It's very possible for the Flames to sell off the old core, restock the prospect pool, and go into next season, much younger and less experienced, but still trying to win as much they can. They may not do so, but it's not like they intending to lose - they can still plan on icing the best possible line up, but one that's simply younger and more in line with what works in today's NHL.

And from that perspective, the Flames don't really have an option. They have to rebuild.
meh, honestly, no one tells their players to lose on purpose anymore, not even the oilers. What you described there is basically the new tanking- throwing a young team on the ice fully aware that they're not competetive. So all in all, excessive losing is the only option in order to get top-end talent. You can try trades, but if you have nothing to give up, you're not getting anything. Trying to build an entire team through free agency is hopeless. So either you get really good drafting in the late 1st, 2nd or 3rd rounds- or you need a dew seasons in the lottery with shoe-in picks.

Your 2nd last paragraph is just a nice description of tanking. Basically, it is losing on purpose- in the sense that you throw teams out on the ice that you know aren't competetive. Of course you hope to win, but you won't take any actions to make it more likely that the team wins. That, to me, is tanking.

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03-05-2013, 02:16 PM
  #56
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There's 3 ways to rebuild the assets for a better roster:

1) 7 potential new assets each year in the draft

2) Nth number of assets in the free agency pool

3) Trading assets

All of which are dependent on the organization's head office personnel. So no matter what you do in any given option in a rebuild, you absolutely need the right personnel to make it work. Let's break it down:

1) Scouting, developing, opportunity and management all factor in to a given draftee. This means your scouts, managers, coaches and dieticians, exercise facilities, relationships with outside-leagued staff, players, family, etc., etc., etc.
- There's a reason a small percentage of draft picks don't pan out.... a lot of variables are involved.

2) Same thing in free agents as in draftees except that NHL free agents are a proven, workable asset most times. It all comes down to head office staff.

3) Trading is a General Manager's decision based on the information his staff provides him with. Also, he must have the authority to make such decisions.

Conclusion
So if we're going to rebuild this roster to have better players on the ice through asset management, what really needs to be rebuilt? Keep King (decisions), Feaster, our scouts, coaches, etc. etc. and expect different results?

King needs to be fired is my opinion as the first step to rebuilding. The rest will happen.

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Old
03-05-2013, 03:29 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schalkenullvier View Post
meh, honestly, no one tells their players to lose on purpose anymore, not even the oilers. What you described there is basically the new tanking- throwing a young team on the ice fully aware that they're not competetive. So all in all, excessive losing is the only option in order to get top-end talent. You can try trades, but if you have nothing to give up, you're not getting anything. Trying to build an entire team through free agency is hopeless. So either you get really good drafting in the late 1st, 2nd or 3rd rounds- or you need a dew seasons in the lottery with shoe-in picks.

Your 2nd last paragraph is just a nice description of tanking. Basically, it is losing on purpose- in the sense that you throw teams out on the ice that you know aren't competetive. Of course you hope to win, but you won't take any actions to make it more likely that the team wins. That, to me, is tanking.
I wasn't advocating that in the slightest. In my mind, there's two approaches we've seen to rebuilding in the last decade or so which can be epitomized by looking at the Oilers and Islanders on one hand, and the Kings and Hawks on the other. And I've been quite clear on which approach the Flames should follow and it's most certainly not the one the Oilers took.

What the Oilers, and to a lesser degree the Islanders, did when rebuilding was essentially what you said, get high draft picks and then throw them to the wolves in the NHL. Almost as soon as they were drafted, those picks were expected to be key contributors in the NHL. This particularly true in the the Oilers case with regards to Hall, Yakupov, and Hopkins.

On the other hand, the Hawks and Kings did things much, much differently. While they too picked up some lottery picks in Doughty, Toews, and Kane, they also supplemented those players with high quality free agent talent as well as utilizing the later rounds of the draft. See, even when the Hawks were bad and clearly in a rebuilding stage, they still went out and signed and overpaid for Campbell, Huet, and Havlat. The Kings got Scuderi, Williams, and so on. Unlike the Oilers, those teams actually went out and made an effort to constantly improve their teams, rather than just throw out successive first round picks each year.

What I've suggested the Flames do is what any team would have logically done in their position. The reality is, the assembled roster isn't working. The core players in Iginla and Kipper are not only both over 35, their both liable to leave at the end of the season, one through UFA and the other through a rumored retirement. Any team would look at the situation and say okay, we're not in the playoffs and given the state of the prospect pool, we can't afford to let these guys go with nothing to show for it. So at the deadline, if the Flames are indeed out of it, they trade both of those players and that's it. I've never actually suggested the Flames trade everyone over 28 or 25 or what have you, like some on this board have actually opined. Rather, the trading of vets should most certainly be done in stages. It's only in next season, at the deadline, again if the Flames are out of it, or if Cammalleri and Bouwmeester refuse to re-sign, that you look to trade them, because again, the organization can no longer afford to pretend like it doesn't matter if those guys walk and they're left with nothing to show for it.

Meanwhile, the organization still keeps guys like Tanguay, Wideman, Hudler and maybe even Stajan to ensure there's at least some level of insulation for the prospects coming in. So there's at least some level of skill on the roster to ensure a level of competition that prevents a culture of losing from setting in. That's what a proper rebuild is. You get a few high draft picks and supplement those picks with quality drafting in later rounds, savvy FA pick ups as well as quality trades.

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03-05-2013, 04:07 PM
  #58
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I agree with the long winded posters here, we need (and I'd argue we are) to rebuild, trading Kipper and Iginla would help but that doesn't mean we can't overpay a few UFA's to keep us somewhat competitive. I think Feaster is looking about 5 years out, so any expensive contracts we have now will be paired with cheap ELC's and we'll be fine. Ultimately we need to draft well, with the salary cap now player movement is down and drafting is the reason organizations sink or swim.

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03-05-2013, 07:02 PM
  #59
Shawnofthedeadz
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Originally Posted by Zoombie View Post
I agree with the long winded posters here, we need (and I'd argue we are) to rebuild, trading Kipper and Iginla would help but that doesn't mean we can't overpay a few UFA's to keep us somewhat competitive. I think Feaster is looking about 5 years out, so any expensive contracts we have now will be paired with cheap ELC's and we'll be fine. Ultimately we need to draft well, with the salary cap now player movement is down and drafting is the reason organizations sink or swim.
Honestly I don't think we should trade Iginla. He should finish his career here in Calgary. He is still a very skilled producer and has the ability to lead this team in points for another couple of seasons. He is also our leader, face of the franchise and one of the more respected players around the league.

Without Iginla, top players would not want to play on or sign with the flames unless they were drastically overpaid. Free agents sign with us because of Iginla. Everyone who comes to the flames is excited to play with Iginla. He brings so much to the game and the locker room. Iginla is even beneficial to our prospects. I cannot think of any player better or who I would rather have teaching our young prospects. He leads by example, is a very nice person and goes out of his way for his team mates.

I understand the last four years young cores have won the cup, but the three years before that teams who won had older cores with their captain older than 34.

2006 Hurricanes - Core: Rob Brind'amour (C, age 35), Ray Whitney, Eric Staal, and Glen Wesley.

2007 Ducks - Core: Pronger, Scott and Rob Niedermayer (Scott was 34), and Teamu Selanne. (Side note: Getzlaf and Perry were starting to break out during that playoff series but both players were late picks. 19th and 28th respectively.)

2008 Detroit - Core: Lindstrom (C, age: 38), Holstrom, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg.

Another great example is the 2002 Red Wings. Yzerman was 37 and his season point totals were drastically lower than in his prime. Yet he still lead the red wings to a Stanley cup victory.

If you want even more modern examples of how keeping an ageing leader and franchise legend is important. Look no further than the Ottawa Senators or the Phoenix Coyotes. Alfredsson is 40 years old, has played his whole career in Ottawa and is producing numbers drastically lower than his prime. Yet he still leads the team and is their unquestioned leader. Even with most of their core on IR they are still playing like a cup contender. A large reason is because of Alfie. Doan, is also in a very similar situation as I have explained in previous posts.

In my opinion Iginla still can bring us a cup in Calgary.

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03-05-2013, 07:20 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawnofthedeadz View Post
Honestly I don't think we should trade Iginla. He should finish his career here in Calgary. He is still a very skilled producer and has the ability to lead this team in points for another couple of seasons. He is also our leader, face of the franchise and one of the more respected players around the league.

Without Iginla, top players would not want to play on or sign with the flames unless they were drastically overpaid. Free agents sign with us because of Iginla. Everyone who comes to the flames is excited to play with Iginla. He brings so much to the game and the locker room. Iginla is even beneficial to our prospects. I cannot think of any player better or who I would rather have teaching our young prospects. He leads by example, is a very nice person and goes out of his way for his team mates.

I understand the last four years young cores have won the cup, but the three years before that teams who won had older cores with their captain older than 34.

2006 Hurricanes - Core: Rob Brind'amour (C, age 35), Ray Whitney, Eric Staal, and Glen Wesley.

2007 Ducks - Core: Pronger, Scott and Rob Niedermayer (Scott was 34), and Teamu Selanne. (Side note: Getzlaf and Perry were starting to break out during that playoff series but both players were late picks. 19th and 28th respectively.)

2008 Detroit - Core: Lindstrom (C, age: 38), Holstrom, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg.

Another great example is the 2002 Red Wings. Yzerman was 37 and his season point totals were drastically lower than in his prime. Yet he still lead the red wings to a Stanley cup victory.

If you want even more modern examples of how keeping an ageing leader and franchise legend is important. Look no further than the Ottawa Senators or the Phoenix Coyotes. Alfredsson is 40 years old, has played his whole career in Ottawa and is producing numbers drastically lower than his prime. Yet he still leads the team and is their unquestioned leader. Even with most of their core on IR they are still playing like a cup contender. A large reason is because of Alfie. Doan, is also in a very similar situation as I have explained in previous posts.

In my opinion Iginla still can bring us a cup in Calgary.
Ken King, is that you?

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03-05-2013, 07:21 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawnofthedeadz View Post

2006 Hurricanes - Core: Rob Brind'amour (C, age 35), Ray Whitney, Eric Staal, and Glen Wesley.

2007 Ducks - Core: Pronger, Scott and Rob Niedermayer (Scott was 34), and Teamu Selanne. (Side note: Getzlaf and Perry were starting to break out during that playoff series but both players were late picks. 19th and 28th respectively.)

2008 Detroit - Core: Lindstrom (C, age: 38), Holstrom, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg.

Another great example is the 2002 Red Wings. Yzerman was 37 and his season point totals were drastically lower than in his prime. Yet he still lead the red wings to a Stanley cup victory.


In my opinion Iginla still can bring us a cup in Calgary.
Thing is all those teams you listed as actually winning cups had way better teams than we do right now, and probably will for the next five years.

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03-05-2013, 07:29 PM
  #62
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McKenzie on Hockey Tonight discussing the trade deadline:

-Flames are in no-mans land once again; four points from a playoff spot but also four points from the basement.

-Believes next stretch of 7-10 days will play a role in what the Flames choose to do -> if they're out of it or just spinning wheels, they may finally look and realize that maybe moving Iginla is something they have to look at.

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03-05-2013, 07:35 PM
  #63
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What's with all bolding going in here?
People trying to get points across lol?

Flames have a fringe team, anyone who thinks that this year wouldn't be a good opportunity to do a quick rebuild in selling some high end assets on expiring contracts for major young talent is drinking the Kool-Aid the Calgary Flames organization has been serving for the past half decade.

This team doesn't have a good enough core unit to compete with the big shots in the West, 8th spot just means getting spanked by the Hawks in 4, 7th just means getting spanked by the Ducks in 4 or 5. This team isn't an LA team from last year, that team is a legitimate playoff team (Big, Skilled and can Grind like no ones business); Calgary's far too soft and easy to play against; and not skilled enough to counter skill for skill.

On the other hand, do I want to see the Flames be like Edmonton or the Isles? No, not at all. I think the Flames have the right balance of veteran talent that sending a few pieces at the deadline wouldn't mean the end of Calgary, but more so just better pieces to the Puzzle.

Jarome; while he is the soul of the Flames, could and should be dealt for a major return this year. He's a UFA this year; he is the pure definition of a rental. And I am certain he would agree that if the Flames are still not in the playoff picture come the deadline, that he's better to the Flames as trade bait than a player. Also, if he really loves it in Calgary, that could be an easy resign after this year's over.

Giordano (Jor-Dano); Could anyone actually say with Gio out of the lineup Calgary would be any better or worse off? He's a great D-man, a definite 1.5 pair D-man... and has the character, offensive instinct and ability that a ton of teams that require a big time D-man really need(*cough* Philly, Half the League *cough*). The return on him would be massive. He's signed a very cap friendly deal for his ability.

With two deals, you could quickly grab 2 players that are either in the NHL and rising stars, ready to be in the NHL along with first round picks; and while the draft is unpredictable, it never hurts to grab first round picks, even if they are 17-30. Also, Stemp is a clear trade guy. He's playing so hot this year, and has been very strong on both sides of the ice... He would probably get you a really big return this year if he keeps his game up.

Calgary would still have a ton of veteran players on both defense and offense going forward. It's not an Edmonton rebuild because there wouldn't be a fall to last place for nothing, and would still have a competitive team.

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03-05-2013, 07:36 PM
  #64
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Thing is all those teams you listed as actually winning cups had way better teams than we do right now, and probably will for the next five years.
I disagree. The Hurricanes or the Ducks were not much better than we are in the seasons they won the cup. Plus ducks got better immediately when the signed Niedermayer in the off season two years before and traded for Pronger. Before this point no one really considered the Ducks to be a contender.

All it takes for the Flames is one or two good trades / signings plus continued development from Backlund and Brodie and we could be the next Stanley cup champions.

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03-05-2013, 07:40 PM
  #65
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I disagree. The Hurricanes or the Ducks were not much better than we are in the seasons they won the cup. Plus ducks got better immediately when the signed Niedermayer in the off season two years before and traded for Pronger. Before this point no one really considered the Ducks to be a contender.

All it takes for the Flames is one or two good trades / signings plus continued development from Backlund and Brodie and we could be the next Stanley cup champions.
You can't seriously believe this can you?

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03-05-2013, 07:46 PM
  #66
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I read every post in this thread and everyone makes valid points about drafting, trading, etc.

I think Calgary HAS rebuilt a tonne in the last 2 years. Changes in management, scouting, AHL staff, coaches, etc has played a huge role in that.
Feaster immediately took us from oldest team to middle of the pack. Feaster has improved our cap management and made decent trades. The only mistake other than the ROR, was Jankowski IMO. But they are the pro's, not me, and there was a reason his name was stiched to the jersey at the draft.

At the end of the day I'm on the side of trade kipper and re-sign iginla if its cheap.

Trade Cammy too and one of JBo or Gio. Preferably keep Gio.

That's 3 picks in the 1st round which I would like to package in some sort with another trade to land a top 3 pick over-all.

After that, it opens a top 6 spot for Sven, a D spot, and a goalie spot and we hav a top prospect in this years draft. We can fill those holes with FA and prospects and move on.

I'll take 8-12 over dead last any day. NYI, CBJ, and EDM are perfect examples.

Also think Iggy could win a cup here before he is 40. That is possible. Plus I want him to be here for the Svens, and Ferlands, etc and have the HOF player to learn from.

A Flame for life Jarome is more valuable than any return he will fetch us.

Just my opinion, but I do also understand if he gets traded. I just hope people realize until we hit an outta the park trade or FA or draft pick....this team will be a 7-12 team.

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03-05-2013, 09:37 PM
  #67
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Ken King took this franchise and turned it from a money loser to a money maker. Sure the dollar near par has helped but as long as he keeps making the ownership group money, he ain't going nowhere.


Last edited by MarkGio: 03-06-2013 at 02:42 PM. Reason: didn't mean to
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03-05-2013, 10:37 PM
  #68
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Giordano (Jor-Dano); Could anyone actually say with Gio out of the lineup Calgary would be any better or worse off? He's a great D-man, a definite 1.5 pair D-man... and has the character, offensive instinct and ability that a ton of teams that require a big time D-man really need(*cough* Philly, Half the League *cough*). The return on him would be massive. He's signed a very cap friendly deal for his ability.
In summary, Giordano (1) doesn't make Calgary better; (2) is a great d-man; (3) a definite 1.5 pair d-man; and (4) would bring a massive return.

One of these phrases does not belong.

And this year Giordano is playing this year like a bottom pairing d-man.

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03-05-2013, 11:01 PM
  #69
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In summary, Giordano (1) doesn't make Calgary better; (2) is a great d-man; (3) a definite 1.5 pair d-man; and (4) would bring a massive return.

One of these phrases does not belong.

And this year Giordano is playing this year like a bottom pairing d-man.
I meant this year.
We know in Calgary he is a great D-man, was a sick second pair guy last year but has struggled on the top pair, and would bring a massive return.
However, his play this year, as you said, has been poor.

I think that us along with most people in the league know what he's worth.

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03-05-2013, 11:14 PM
  #70
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yeah the flames could unload some or most veterans and start over with a young team next year. The management is never going to do that unless they were in dead last.
What if the Flames were in 5th right now? What would people be saying?
What if they were doing what Phoenix is doing with a great coach, and great goaltender and...

Boedker Hanzal Sullivan
Korpikoski Vermette Moss
Doan Chipchura Lombardi
Torres Gordon Brown

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03-06-2013, 12:33 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by BVicious View Post
I read every post in this thread and everyone makes valid points about drafting, trading, etc.

I think Calgary HAS rebuilt a tonne in the last 2 years. Changes in management, scouting, AHL staff, coaches, etc has played a huge role in that.
Feaster immediately took us from oldest team to middle of the pack. Feaster has improved our cap management and made decent trades. The only mistake other than the ROR, was Jankowski IMO. But they are the pro's, not me, and there was a reason his name was stiched to the jersey at the draft.

At the end of the day I'm on the side of trade kipper and re-sign iginla if its cheap.

Trade Cammy too and one of JBo or Gio. Preferably keep Gio.

That's 3 picks in the 1st round which I would like to package in some sort with another trade to land a top 3 pick over-all.

After that, it opens a top 6 spot for Sven, a D spot, and a goalie spot and we hav a top prospect in this years draft. We can fill those holes with FA and prospects and move on.

I'll take 8-12 over dead last any day. NYI, CBJ, and EDM are perfect examples.

Also think Iggy could win a cup here before he is 40. That is possible. Plus I want him to be here for the Svens, and Ferlands, etc and have the HOF player to learn from.

A Flame for life Jarome is more valuable than any return he will fetch us.

Just my opinion, but I do also understand if he gets traded. I just hope people realize until we hit an outta the park trade or FA or draft pick....this team will be a 7-12 team.
I agree with you almost completely BUT It is still way too early to tell if Jankoswki is going to be a bust or not.

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Old
03-06-2013, 11:48 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Abbotsford Heat View Post
My Opinion on Rebuilding
by Abbotsford Heat

Since the start of the 1994-95 season the New York Islanders and the NHL has seen 18 entry drafts and the Islanders have had 23 first round picks in those 18 drafts. 11 of those first round picks were in the top 5 and another 3 came in the top 10. Two of them were 1st overall picks. This has gotten the Islanders where? The answer is 3 playoff appearances resulting in 1st round losses, being the laughing stock of the NHL and a bus ticket to Brooklyn.

Since their inception the Thrashers/Jets franchise has participated in 14 entry drafts. In those 14 drafts the franchise has selected 15 players in the 1st round, 6 of those in the top 5 and 5 more between 6th and 10th. Two of them were 1st overall picks. And this got them where? 1 playoff appearance that had a 1st round departure and a bus ticket to Winnipeg.

The Florida Panthers have been involved in 20 NHL entry drafts since they were granted an expansion team. In 20 years the Panthers have had 22 picks in the first round, had 7 picks in the top 5 and an additional 4 in the top 10. One of them was a st overall pick. And this has gotten the Panthers where? 4 playoff appearances in 20 years.

I could also do this for Chicago (from 1996-97 to 2007-08), Columbus (since their inception), Los Angeles (from 1993-94 to 2010-11), Minnesota (since their inception) or Tampa Bay (since the lockout).

The point is this:

Being drafting a lot in the top 5 or 10 doesn't guarantee anything. You need to get the right picks at the right time. It doesn't matter if you are drafting 1st or 30th, if you draft well, trade well and make smart signings you will be fine. That is all the "rebuild" you need.
Are any of those even Cap teams?

NYI are horrible because they never spend money, they are basically a Farm team. Ditto the Thrashers (now they can spend to the cap with the move to the Peg).

What you are failing to see is that the Talent level in the Top 5 is far superior to that in the 20-30 range. Drafting top 5 gives you a MUCH MUCH better chance at getting a legit star player. How many superstars are drafted outside of the top 5? Pretty rare considering, And even then, how many of those rare players were drafted 20-30? i would say even less.

Drafting high almost always gets you good players, its just what you do with them after that matters (ie, dont bring in your young guys and play them on the 4th line ala Calgary/NYI).

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Old
03-06-2013, 01:28 PM
  #73
F l a m e s
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightDuck View Post

Boedker:23 Hanzal:26 Sullivan
Korpikoski Vermette Moss
Doan Chipchura Lombardi
Torres Gordon Brown

OEL:21 - Yandle:26
I think Phoenix isn't a good comparable. They have an elite #1 D in OEL, and very good young players throughout their core (Yandle, Boedker, Hanzal). Not only do they have a young core, but they also have some very highly touted prospects: Gormley, and Rundblad.

The Flames do have youth throughout their lineup, but it's not really comparable (skill wise) to Phoenix. Just my opinion. Phoenix seems to be in a better state relating to organizational health.

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03-06-2013, 01:35 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
McKenzie on Hockey Tonight discussing the trade deadline:

-Flames are in no-mans land once again; four points from a playoff spot but also four points from the basement.

-Believes next stretch of 7-10 days will play a role in what the Flames choose to do -> if they're out of it or just spinning wheels, they may finally look and realize that maybe moving Iginla is something they have to look at.
I think we will see by the end of this upcoming California road trip. If the Flames aren't a few games above .500 by the time they return, then it's probably going to be time to make some deals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawnofthedeadz View Post
I disagree. The Hurricanes or the Ducks were not much better than we are in the seasons they won the cup. Plus ducks got better immediately when the signed Niedermayer in the off season two years before and traded for Pronger. Before this point no one really considered the Ducks to be a contender.

All it takes for the Flames is one or two good trades / signings plus continued development from Backlund and Brodie and we could be the next Stanley cup champions.
That's ridiculous. The Ducks were solid from top to bottom. Yes the acquisitions of Niedermayer and Pronger helped but they were a very good team and to say they were "not much better" than this current version of the Flames is laughable.

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Old
03-06-2013, 02:06 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pilottalk View Post
I think getting value for Iginla now is the only option. best case scenario, Iginla plays elsewhere for next 3 years, doesn't win a cup, comes back to Calgary, wins a Cup in 2017. retires.
Calgary is more likely a lottery team in 2017 than a cup winner.

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