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The End of Hugo Chavez?

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03-05-2013, 06:15 PM
  #51
Johnnywhite
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So much crying by the radical left over this piece of ***** death. If there is a hell, he will burn in hell. Good riddence!
Thanks lemming, is there a cliff near you?

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03-05-2013, 06:18 PM
  #52
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I don't know...repression of political opposition? Trashing the United States? He was generally a clown and defiant Anti-Amurrrrican. So forgive me if I don't bawl my eyes out at his demise
He also built schools and hospitals with the nation's oil revenue, rather than embezzle it or hand it out to cronies and multinational corporations. Chavez was genuinely loved in Venezuela unlike the previous administration. Not saying there isnt some political repression, or silencing of his opposition. But he probably won all of his elections without resorting to fraud, which you cant say about half the worlds democracies, and especially not about the regime of Pérez, Chavez' predecessor.

I'm not exactly sad that he passed. The reasons we in the US hated his guts is primarily that he nationalized oil infrastructure, which took money out of the pockets of some US companies. That, and he got a lot of play by demonizing the US as his rallies. Populists bordering on Marxists like Chavez are what we get for propping up dictatorships in Latin America in exchange for supporting our business interests.

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03-05-2013, 06:21 PM
  #53
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03-05-2013, 06:21 PM
  #54
Ilkka Sinisalo
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Have another donut, AP.

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03-05-2013, 06:23 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
While it's hard to find reliable statistics, I would guess that food consumption in Venezuela has increased since the mid 1990s and that food shortages aren't any more common now than they were previously. Venezuela's economy was a mess during much of the '80s and '90s.

Also, Venezuela's economy has been heavily dependent on oil for at least half a century. That is not an issue unique to Chavez' presidency.
With South American economies running gangbusters in growth, Venezuela looks even worse off.

Sad considering that in the 80s and 90s they were seen as a symbol of economic and political progress in Latin and South America.

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03-05-2013, 06:26 PM
  #56
Ilkka Sinisalo
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With South American economies running gangbusters in growth, Venezuela looks even worse off.

Sad considering that in the 80s and 90s they were seen as a symbol of economic and political progress in Latin and South America.
You mean when they were having economic crises and coups every other year?

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03-05-2013, 06:28 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by DoyleG View Post
With South American economies running gangbusters in growth, Venezuela looks even worse off.

Sad considering that in the 80s and 90s they were seen as a symbol of economic and political progress in Latin and South America.
Too bad Venezuela had the highest GNP growth of any South American country last year, double the rate of Argentina and 4X the rate of Brazil.

Nice try, though.

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03-05-2013, 06:29 PM
  #58
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He also built schools and hospitals with the nation's oil revenue, rather than embezzle it or hand it out to cronies and multinational corporations. Chavez was genuinely loved in Venezuela unlike the previous administration. Not saying there isnt some political repression, or silencing of his opposition. But he probably won all of his elections without resorting to fraud, which you cant say about half the worlds democracies, and especially not about the regime of Pérez, Chavez' predecessor.

I'm not exactly sad that he passed. The reasons we in the US hated his guts is primarily that he nationalized oil infrastructure, which took money out of the pockets of some US companies. That, and he got a lot of play by demonizing the US as his rallies. Populists bordering on Marxists like Chavez are what we get for propping up dictatorships in Latin America in exchange for supporting our business interests.
Perez? wot? Chavez didn't succeed with his coup.
Maybe not fraud, but mediatic hegemony. Maybe not fraud, but certainly not fair and free elections. Maybe not fraud, but lots of washing machines.

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03-05-2013, 06:38 PM
  #59
Sevanston
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Originally Posted by Tim Calhoun View Post
Dictators can be democratically elected.
I thought you would've liked Chavez's consolidation of power.

He was just a hop, skip, and a jump from declaring himself a monarch.

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03-05-2013, 06:41 PM
  #60
Ilkka Sinisalo
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Originally Posted by DoyleG View Post
With South American economies running gangbusters in growth, Venezuela looks even worse off.

Sad considering that in the 80s and 90s they were seen as a symbol of economic and political progress in Latin and South America.


Here's GDP per capita (in current USD) for Venezuela, Argentina and Brazil. During most of the period that you were talking about - the 80s and 90s - your symbol of economic progress actually saw its per capita GDP decrease. Brazil and Argentina appear to have done better than Venezuela in the 90s. Then from the late 90s through 2010, Venezuela showed better growth than Brazil and Argentina, though Brazil and Argentina have not suffered the same slump that Venezuela has seen during the past couple of years.

I guess my point is that the actual data seems to contradict your argument.

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03-05-2013, 06:45 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post


Here's GDP per capita (in current USD) for Venezuela, Argentina and Brazil. During most of the period that you were talking about - the 80s and 90s - your symbol of economic progress actually saw its per capita GDP decrease. Brazil and Argentina appear to have done better than Venezuela in the 90s. Then from the late 90s through 2010, Venezuela showed better growth than Brazil and Argentina, though Brazil and Argentina have not suffered the same slump that Venezuela has seen during the past couple of years.

I guess my point is that the actual data seems to contradict your argument.
Is that dollars in fantasy bolivares*? The bolivar that was devaluated recently and it is still a fantasy?

*Government Fixed Exchange Rate.

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03-05-2013, 06:49 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post


Here's GDP per capita (in current USD) for Venezuela, Argentina and Brazil. During most of the period that you were talking about - the 80s and 90s - your symbol of economic progress actually saw its per capita GDP decrease. Brazil and Argentina appear to have done better than Venezuela in the 90s. Then from the late 90s through 2010, Venezuela showed better growth than Brazil and Argentina, though Brazil and Argentina have not suffered the same slump that Venezuela has seen during the past couple of years.

I guess my point is that the actual data seems to contradict your argument.
Excellent chart, which appears even more remarkable in the context of Venezuela's economic and political beef with the 800 lbs. gorilla to the north.

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03-05-2013, 06:49 PM
  #63
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You mean when they were having economic crises and coups every other year?
Truth hurts, doesn't it?

Venezuela was a democratic and open society in a continent that was still dealing with military regimes (along with its legacies) or with civil conflicts. Chavez took over a Venezuela that was growing in wealth while the rest of the continent faltered.

Now, people talk about progress in Brazil, Columbia, and Chile where they are prosperous and tacking the same issues without having the sacrifice their democratic values or for left-wing opponents seeking vengeance for the hope of political scores.

Chavez wanted to spread his revolution and failed as problems at home began to mount. His allies don't have the same clout and now Castro is gonna be worried how Hugo's death will affect Cuba (ie. the heavily discounted oil shipments that was part of the Chavez foreign policy).

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03-05-2013, 06:50 PM
  #64
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Is that dollars in fantasy bolivares*? The bolivar that was devaluated recently and it is still a fantasy?

*Government Fixed Exchange Rate.
Right, because every ****ing country in the planet is not debasing their currencies in the quest to get to zero first...

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03-05-2013, 06:51 PM
  #65
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Excellent chart, which appears even more remarkable in the context of Venezuela's economic and political beef with the 800 lbs. gorilla to the north.
What economic beef? The US always bought Venezuelan oil, oil that the governmnet was more than happy to sell them since Mene Grande.

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03-05-2013, 06:52 PM
  #66
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Right, because every ****ing country in the planet is not debasing their currencies in the quest to get to zero first...
I'm saying that the bolivar was way too high with respect to the dollar.

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03-05-2013, 06:53 PM
  #67
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Truth hurts, doesn't it?

Venezuela was a democratic and open society in a continent that was still dealing with military regimes (along with its legacies) or with civil conflicts. Chavez took over a Venezuela that was growing in wealth while the rest of the continent faltered.

Now, people talk about progress in Brazil, Columbia, and Chile where they are prosperous and tacking the same issues without having the sacrifice their democratic values or for left-wing opponents seeking vengeance for the hope of political scores.

Chavez wanted to spread his revolution and failed as problems at home began to mount. His allies don't have the same clout and now Castro is gonna be worried how Hugo's death will affect Cuba (ie. the heavily discounted oil shipments that was part of the Chavez foreign policy).
I think you mean democratically elected in 1998.

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03-05-2013, 06:54 PM
  #68
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Dictators can be democratically elected.
Not re-elected though.

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03-05-2013, 06:55 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by DoyleG View Post
Truth hurts, doesn't it?

Venezuela was a democratic and open society in a continent that was still dealing with military regimes (along with its legacies) or with civil conflicts. Chavez took over a Venezuela that was growing in wealth while the rest of the continent faltered.

Now, people talk about progress in Brazil, Columbia, and Chile where they are prosperous and tacking the same issues without having the sacrifice their democratic values or for left-wing opponents seeking vengeance for the hope of political scores.

Chavez wanted to spread his revolution and failed as problems at home began to mount. His allies don't have the same clout and now Castro is gonna be worried how Hugo's death will affect Cuba (ie. the heavily discounted oil shipments that was part of the Chavez foreign policy).
There's so much factual misinformation in this post that it's not ever worth tearing apart. Put the Fox News down for a minute and think through the facts of the situation.

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03-05-2013, 06:55 PM
  #70
Ilkka Sinisalo
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Truth hurts, doesn't it?
I'm still trying to find the truth in your posts, frankly.

You may not like that the rules were changed (by a democratic vote) so that he could be elected president as many times as he wanted, but he was democratically elected four times in elections that were widely regarded as fair.

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03-05-2013, 06:56 PM
  #71
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Neo-Cons are celebrating like Bin-Laden just died.

How was Chavez a threat to America again?

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03-05-2013, 06:56 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by DoyleG View Post
Truth hurts, doesn't it?

Venezuela was a democratic and open society in a continent that was still dealing with military regimes (along with its legacies) or with civil conflicts. Chavez took over a Venezuela that was growing in wealth while the rest of the continent faltered.

Now, people talk about progress in Brazil, Columbia, and Chile where they are prosperous and tacking the same issues without having the sacrifice their democratic values or for left-wing opponents seeking vengeance for the hope of political scores.

Chavez wanted to spread his revolution and failed as problems at home began to mount. His allies don't have the same clout and now Castro is gonna be worried how Hugo's death will affect Cuba (ie. the heavily discounted oil shipments that was part of the Chavez foreign policy).
If Diosdado Cabello wins the power struggle Cuba can kiss those barrels good bye.

By the way, Venezuela was a rotten society to begin with, he just somehow made it worse.

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03-05-2013, 07:01 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post


Here's GDP per capita (in current USD) for Venezuela, Argentina and Brazil. During most of the period that you were talking about - the 80s and 90s - your symbol of economic progress actually saw its per capita GDP decrease. Brazil and Argentina appear to have done better than Venezuela in the 90s. Then from the late 90s through 2010, Venezuela showed better growth than Brazil and Argentina, though Brazil and Argentina have not suffered the same slump that Venezuela has seen during the past couple of years.

I guess my point is that the actual data seems to contradict your argument.
You obviously can't read a chart properly. Chavez took power only in 1998-99, and from that point the growth in Venezuela came down. The oil was what saved Hugo as he could use it to grow his country, but gave it away in large quantities to like minded countries. Along with to poor operation of the state oil company, whose problems are well known under the Chavez era.

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03-05-2013, 07:03 PM
  #74
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There's so much factual misinformation in this post that it's not ever worth tearing apart. Put the Fox News down for a minute and think through the facts of the situation.
I watch Al Jazeera and BBC. ******.

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03-05-2013, 07:07 PM
  #75
Ilkka Sinisalo
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Originally Posted by DoyleG View Post
You obviously can't read a chart properly. Chavez took power only in 1998-99, and from that point the growth in Venezuela came down. The oil was what saved Hugo as he could use it to grow his country, but gave it away in large quantities to like minded countries. Along with to poor operation of the state oil company, whose problems are well known under the Chavez era.
What on earth are you talking about? It went down in 2001-02, as did Brazil and Argentina, because there was a worldwide recession. Then it skyrocketed after 2002 until 2010-11, after which point it started declining again.

And the oil was discovered in Venezuela like 100 years ago. You're acting like Chavez just lucked into a huge stash of oil that nobody else knew about.

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