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Zack Kassian Discussion Thread Part II

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Old
03-05-2013, 06:43 PM
  #76
Tiranis
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Originally Posted by Wheatley View Post
Yeah pretty much. It would depend how much special teams play there happens to be that game.

Still use him on the PP and PK, just cut down on his 5 on 5 play, especially in the offensive zone.
Because Hodgson can't handle increased minutes without being a burden defensively. It's great to score at a 60 point pace but if you're allowing more goals than the other team then you're worse than a 30 point guy that can break even or come out ahead.

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03-05-2013, 06:56 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Because Hodgson can't handle increased minutes without being a burden defensively. It's great to score at a 60 point pace but if you're allowing more goals than the other team then you're worse than a 30 point guy that can break even or come out ahead.
Yes if the Canucks defense was healthy and playing half decent, and we had our usual good goaltending, I'm sure that we'd be getting scored on non stop with Hodgson on the ice.

Especially against teams like Nashville, Calgary, Edmonton, Columbus, Colorado, Minnesota, and Phoenix.

You know, all those offensive powerhouses we have here in the West.

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03-05-2013, 06:58 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Wheatley View Post
Yeah pretty much. It would depend how much special teams play there happens to be that game.

Still use him on the PP and PK, just cut down on his 5 on 5 play, especially in the offensive zone.
I just don't know if Hodgson at this point could handle top 6 duties playing behind the Sedins because of his defensive inadequacies. Scoring at a 65 point pace with 1st line minutes means nothing if you're a liability. Look at Tampa Bay. All the scoring in the world but they're a bottom 5 team in the league because they can't keep the puck out of their own net.

Hodgson could probably do well in a sheltered offensive role and getting Sedin type minutes, but at his current level he's simply not good enough to be worth building a lineup around like the Sedins are. Maybe he'll get better defensively with age and experience so he can handle normal minutes without being a train wreck in his own end, but by the sounds of it patience wasn't something he had so that was never going to happen with the Canucks. He wanted top minutes now.

I think it would've been fantastic if he'd been willing to work his way up the Canucks lineup and work on his defensive game but the player has to want to do that and it doesn't sound like it's something he takes seriously based on his pro career and how he's performing in Buffalo.


And that all completely ignores all the other off ice issues between Hodgson's camp and the team. I can't imagine trying to negotiate this summer with a guy who'd burned through 3 different agents and who was presumably willing to force himself off the team so he could set himself up for a better 2nd contract. Not to mention his dad sounds like a nutcase. This was a guy who called up Elliotte Friedman and harassed him just because Friedman implied that Hodgson's family was too involved one night on HNIC.

Though I better not say any more, maybe Hodgson's dad will create an account on HFBoards and send me some PMs.

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03-05-2013, 07:00 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Wheatley View Post
Yes if the Canucks defense was healthy and playing half decent, and we had our usual good goaltending, I'm sure that we'd be getting scored on non stop with Hodgson on the ice.

Especially against teams like Nashville, Calgary, Edmonton, Columbus, Colorado, Minnesota, and Phoenix.

You know, all those offensive powerhouses we have here in the West.
Why not? Look what happened when Kesler came back rusty and playing on a broken foot. He got lit up. Except that's how Hodgson plays all the time.

It doesn't matter what conference you're playing in, if you shirk your defensive responsibilities you're going to get burned. Maybe he wouldn't be on pace for 125 GA like he is with Buffalo, but he'd be costing the team points.

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03-05-2013, 08:05 PM
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Absolutely. Hodgson is a 1st/2nd liner and Kassian is a 3rd/4th liner.

Recall at the time of the trade almost everyone in Vancouver was up in arms over it - including Hodgson himself who desired to stay here. It was for good reason, we knew we were trading away a great talent for a big unknown.

The trade still doesn't make sense to me. All the talk at the time was we didn't have room for him on the second line, meanwhile our second line center is in the midst of production draining injuries and not only that, Hodgson is an obviously MORE SKILLED player than Kesler, even at the time of the trade. Even with Kesler at full health, I would have taken Hodgson over him. It seems like management got confused about the issue at hand - didn't know what to do so went for a fire-sale trade. They should have kept Hodgson and traded Kesler when he was back "healthy", and could probably have gotten more for him.
Hodgson is very skilled but he is also utterly hopeless defensively. He's brought his team 25 goals while he's been on the ice and 32 goals against. Once you look past his PPG and at the whole picture he's been a net negative and part of the reason Buffalo suck so much this year. Until he fixes that he's going to be a big question mark. Under a coach that demands accountability he'd have been demoted to the 2nd line, then the 3rd etc, he certainly wouldn't be getting PPG without 1st line time with Vanek and Pominville. I'm far more impressed with Kadri, he's putting up PPG with scrubs.

On a scale of 1 to 5 where 5 is a selke, Hodgson is a 1. If he can get to a 2 and still be PPG that is OK, plenty of 1C's attempt to outscore the deficiencies and succeed. If he can get to 3 (probably his peak) and be average defensively and PPG he'll be a good 1C. Moving up from woeful should be a fairly easily task if Hodgson wants really improve. I'd give Hodgson a clear edge over Kassian atm because he's showing he can put up the points, and defense should be one of the more improvable things.


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03-05-2013, 08:14 PM
  #81
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Hodgson is very skilled but he is also utterly hopeless defensively. He's brought his team 25 goals while he's been on the ice and 32 goals against. Once you look past his PPG and at the whole picture he's been a net negative and part of the reason Buffalo suck so much this year. Until he fixes that he's going to be a big question mark. Under a coach that demands accountability he'd have been demoted to the 2nd line, then the 3rd etc, he certainly wouldn't be getting PPG without 1st line time with Vanek and Pominville. I'm far more impressed with Kadri, he's putting up PPG with scrubs.
He'll be fine. He's only 23 and already a very good offensive player. Just has to learn the defensive side of it as he matures but I agree that he needs a coach that will hold him accountable. That's the only way he'll learn.

My only problem with the trade is the timing. Will never agree with it. Kassian wasn't and still isn't ready to be an impact guy. That's not to say he won't pan out or that it's his fault. It's a normal development curve he's following but I blame management for not waiting until the summer. How is trading a young offensive center a good idea when you're trying to make a stanley cup run? Not to say Hodgson would be our leading scorer or anything but he would been able to help more than Kassian. Especially since they knew Kesler was banged up. Just stupid IMO but I know people will disagree with it.

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03-05-2013, 08:30 PM
  #82
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Enough with this cody hodgson can't handle heavy min crap.

You can teach defense, the guy has 20 points, 9 goals already on an absolutely awful team.

This can't even be argued for this year, Cody is way ahead of kassian in both development and talent.

If cody had foot speed he would be a top top end player in this league.

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03-05-2013, 08:32 PM
  #83
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Make that 10 goals, 21 points now.

oh and it was shorthanded

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03-05-2013, 08:44 PM
  #84
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The East is much easier to score on more loosely nothing like the tighter physical West

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03-05-2013, 08:46 PM
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Enough is enough, this guy sucks.
He'll show flashes of brilliance, and then he'll check out for a period or two.

Sound like any other "power forwards" that we happened to "steal" from the Buffalo Sabres?

*COUGH*stevebernier*COUGH*

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03-05-2013, 08:48 PM
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Enough with this cody hodgson can't handle heavy min crap.

You can teach defense, the guy has 20 points, 9 goals already on an absolutely awful team.

This can't even be argued for this year, Cody is way ahead of kassian in both development and talent.

If cody had foot speed he would be a top top end player in this league.
Totally agree. And you know who also had issues with speed for a very long time, certainly when he was around Cody's age (and beyond)?

That #33 guy, on your Vancouver Canucks.

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03-05-2013, 09:01 PM
  #87
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I think Kassian's worrying way too much about scoring. When he was doing well in the first 10 games or so, he was being very physical but now that he's cooled off, he's barely hurting a fly. Maybe that's what PWFs do in their early age but he just needs to stay physical and I think the goals will come.

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03-05-2013, 09:02 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Lucbourdon View Post
Enough with this cody hodgson can't handle heavy min crap.

You can teach defense, the guy has 20 points, 9 goals already on an absolutely awful team.

This can't even be argued for this year, Cody is way ahead of kassian in both development and talent.

If cody had foot speed he would be a top top end player in this league.
Why do bad defensive players exist then? They either lack the ability or the commitment to play good defensive hockey and right now Hodgson is missing both.

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03-05-2013, 09:10 PM
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Everyone is ripping Hodgson for his defensive play but is Kassian all that great in his own end? Kassian is a -4 while playing much less than Hodgson. At least Hodgson has the offensive part down.

I actually like Kassian so I don't enjoy piling on the kid but it's very annoying when Canuck fans make Hodgson look like Messier 2.0 and pile on him to make Kassian look better.

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03-05-2013, 09:13 PM
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I think Kassian's worrying way too much about scoring. When he was doing well in the first 10 games or so, he was being very physical but now that he's cooled off, he's barely hurting a fly. Maybe that's what PWFs do in their early age but he just needs to stay physical and I think the goals will come.
I would hope that he's worrying about scoring, yes.

Let's not forget what we gave up to get him. Target is a Milan Lucic-type, not a Ben Eager-type.

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03-05-2013, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Towel-Power View Post
Everyone is ripping Hodgson for his defensive play but is Kassian all that great in his own end? Kassian is a -4 while playing much less than Hodgson. At least Hodgson has the offensive part down.

I actually like Kassian so I don't enjoy piling on the kid but it's very annoying when Canuck fans make Hodgson look like Messier 2.0 and pile on him to make Kassian look better.
Big difference; Kassian (presumably, at least) isn't pressuring management to give him minutes where his defensive struggles will hurt the team.

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03-05-2013, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Lucbourdon View Post
Enough with this cody hodgson can't handle heavy min crap.

You can teach defense, the guy has 20 points, 9 goals already on an absolutely awful team.

This can't even be argued for this year, Cody is way ahead of kassian in both development and talent.

If cody had foot speed he would be a top top end player in this league.
If Kassian had Henriks sense, he'd be better than Lemiuex, so what's your point?

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03-05-2013, 09:25 PM
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Big difference; Kassian (presumably, at least) isn't pressuring management to give him minutes where his defensive struggles will hurt the team.
Is he doing that in Buffalo though? Seems like the coach put Cody on the first line because he's been one of their best players. His time in Vancouver is messy to say the least but who knows what really happened. It's still speculation.

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03-05-2013, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Lucbourdon View Post
Enough with this cody hodgson can't handle heavy min crap.

You can teach defense, the guy has 20 points, 9 goals already on an absolutely awful team.

This can't even be argued for this year, Cody is way ahead of kassian in both development and talent.

If cody had foot speed he would be a top top end player in this league.
the guy has 21 points, 10 goals already because he's on an absolutely awful team. No contender would put him with those line mates and accept he's poor defensive play. He's in a great situation for him now where they don't care what he does in his own end and are happy to let him work on his offensive game. Not something you see from contenders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Towel-Power View Post
Everyone is ripping Hodgson for his defensive play but is Kassian all that great in his own end? Kassian is a -4 while playing much less than Hodgson. At least Hodgson has the offensive part down.

I actually like Kassian so I don't enjoy piling on the kid but it's very annoying when Canuck fans make Hodgson look like Messier 2.0 and pile on him to make Kassian look better.
See the point above. Kassian is getting treated like a player on a contender, he has to round out his game or get demoted below better rounded players. Put him on a terrible team, give him elite wingers and no defensive responsibility he'd put up more points.

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03-05-2013, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Lucbourdon View Post
Enough with this cody hodgson can't handle heavy min crap.

You can teach defense, the guy has 20 points, 9 goals already on an absolutely awful team.

This can't even be argued for this year, Cody is way ahead of kassian in both development and talent.

If cody had foot speed he would be a top top end player in this league.
Dude...your opinions change with the tides! Stick to your guns!

Cody has had an opportunity Kassian was only shown in the first 5/6 games here, in which he showed a TON of offensive spark.

If you honestly don't see the stark contrast between the situations, and the reason for the difference in points, I don't know what to tell you.

Great for Hodgson though! Glad he's panning out ok for the Sabres. Really terrible defensive game though...like just awful. Kassian is lightyears ahead of Hodgson in that regard.

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03-05-2013, 09:45 PM
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the guy has 21 points, 10 goals already because he's on an absolutely awful team. No contender would put him with those line mates and accept he's poor defensive play. He's in a great situation for him now where they don't care what he does in his own end and are happy to let him work on his offensive game. Not something you see from contenders.
That's the "absolutely awful team" that Zack Kassian could not secure a regular spot on, correct?

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03-05-2013, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
That's the "absolutely awful team" that Zack Kassian could not secure a regular spot on, correct?
They were actually less awful then and he was 20 years old at the time, not 23 like Hodgson is right now.

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03-05-2013, 09:48 PM
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the guy has 21 points, 10 goals already because he's on an absolutely awful team. No contender would put him with those line mates and accept he's poor defensive play. He's in a great situation for him now where they don't care what he does in his own end and are happy to let him work on his offensive game. Not something you see from contenders.



See the point above. Kassian is getting treated like a player on a contender, he has to round out his game or get demoted below better rounded players. Put him on a terrible team, give him elite wingers and no defensive responsibility he'd put up more points.
It's called the Shareef Abdur Rahim.

Top 5 in scoring. On the worst team in history.

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03-05-2013, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
That's the "absolutely awful team" that Zack Kassian could not secure a regular spot on, correct?
and Cody was in AHL/juniors at that age

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03-05-2013, 09:54 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by canuck4life16 View Post
The East is much easier to score on more loosely nothing like the tighter physical West
uh huh yup.

No chance at all that Hodgson is simply a vastly superior player at this stage.

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