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The End of Hugo Chavez?

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03-05-2013, 07:09 PM
  #76
slip
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Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Neo-Cons are celebrating like Bin-Laden just died.

How was Chavez a threat to America again?
He showed how life could be outside of American meddling -- more clinics and less cocoa eradication; more schools and less economic stratification. He offered the region a dangerous example of life outside of the U.S. system.

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03-05-2013, 07:09 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Neo-Cons are celebrating like Bin-Laden just died.

How was Chavez a threat to America again?
Because they wouldn't play the 'Open Veins of Latin America' game any more.

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03-05-2013, 07:09 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
I'm still trying to find the truth in your posts, frankly.

You may not like that the rules were changed (by a democratic vote) so that he could be elected president as many times as he wanted, but he was democratically elected four times in elections that were widely regarded as fair.
If he was that popular, he wouldn't have to change the rules.

da Silva and Rousseff didn't change the rules to win. Neither did the Concertación in their control of post-Pinochet Chile. Same with Funes in El Salvador.

The only one's that have to change the rules are the one's who are Chavez allies (Ortega, Correa, Kirchner, Morales). The only benefit is Chavez doesn't have to live to be toppled. Typical of the left.

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03-05-2013, 07:10 PM
  #79
Tim Calhoun
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Not re-elected though.
Not if the electorate are all misanthropes.

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03-05-2013, 07:10 PM
  #80
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I watch Al Jazeera and BBC. ******.
Doubt it...

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03-05-2013, 07:15 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by DoyleG View Post
If he was that popular, he wouldn't have to change the rules.

da Silva and Rousseff didn't change the rules to win. Neither did the Concertación in their control of post-Pinochet Chile. Same with Funes in El Salvador.

The only one's that have to change the rules are the one's who are Chavez allies (Ortega, Correa, Kirchner, Morales). The only benefit is Chavez doesn't have to live to be toppled. Typical of the left.
Daniel Ortega, the same Daniel Ortega that Ronnie Raygun tried to illegally overthrow in the 80s, in office in Nicaragua right now...& Ollie North bloviates on right wing media for falling on his sword for dear Ronnie.Wonder why he might not love the US?

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03-05-2013, 07:15 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by slip View Post
Doubt it...
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americ...030252330.html

Poor Slip, cast away by the tides of change.

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03-05-2013, 07:18 PM
  #83
SonOfGom
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Because they wouldn't play the 'Open Veins of Latin America' game any more.
Isn't that the game of exporting raw products and importing finished products while destroying his country's industrial capability, all the while blasting the people his government sold the raw product to, until he could make a deal with the chinese wherein he would sell said raw products at under-market prices in return of cheap appliances? Because, if so, Chavez was really good at that one.

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03-05-2013, 07:19 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by SonOfGom View Post
Isn't that the game of exporting raw products and importing finished products while destroying his country's industrial capability, all the while blasting the people his government sold the raw product to, until he could make a deal with the chinese wherein he would sell said raw products under market prices in return of cheap appliances? Because, if so, Chavez was really good at that one.

Errr, no.

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03-05-2013, 07:21 PM
  #85
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Errr, no.
:c Too bad, he was also really good at calling himself "the people."

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03-05-2013, 07:22 PM
  #86
Ilkka Sinisalo
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Originally Posted by DoyleG View Post
If he was that popular, he wouldn't have to change the rules.

da Silva and Rousseff didn't change the rules to win. Neither did the Concertación in their control of post-Pinochet Chile. Same with Funes in El Salvador.
He didn't change the rules to win. He won election democratically in 1998. A new constitution was ratified, with the majority support of the voting public, in 1999. The rules had to be changed so that he wouldn't be term-limited out of office in 2013. The constitution was amended, again democratically, in 2009.

You really don't seem like you know what you're talking about.

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03-05-2013, 07:23 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
He didn't change the rules to win. He won election democratically in 1998. A new constitution was ratified, with the majority support of the voting public, in 1999. The rules had to be changed so that he wouldn't be term-limited out of office in 2013. The constitution was amended, again democratically, in 2009.

You really don't seem like you know what you're talking about.
Had to?

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03-05-2013, 07:26 PM
  #88
Ilkka Sinisalo
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Had to?
???????

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03-05-2013, 07:32 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by DoyleG View Post
With South American economies running gangbusters in growth, Venezuela looks even worse off.

Sad considering that in the 80s and 90s they were seen as a symbol of economic and political progress in Latin and South America.
don't forget the corruption.

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03-05-2013, 07:33 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
???????
You said that the rules had to be changed so he won't be term limited? Is his god given right to have limitless terms?

But I guess that losing a referendum in 2007 on that matter, and then unconstitutionally giving it another go in 2009 is fair for the people who don't want to play the imperialistic game anymore.

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03-05-2013, 07:46 PM
  #91
Ilkka Sinisalo
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Originally Posted by SonOfGom View Post
You said that the rules had to be changed so he won't be term limited? Is his god given right to have limitless terms?

But I guess that losing a referendum in 2007 on that matter, and then unconstitutionally giving it another go in 2009 is fair for the people who don't want to play the imperialistic game anymore.


There was never any proposal for limitless terms. The 2007 referendum proposed no term limits and lengthening the presidential term to 7 years. That referendum failed. The referendum in 2009, which proposed eliminating term limits for federal positions, passed. Yes, he performed an end run around the constitution by proposing the new referendum in 2009, but in the end it was ratified by a majority of the voting public after a strong turnout. If the public didn't want him around any more or thought that his new proposed amendment was unconstitutional, they had the chance to vote as such. And many did. But more did not.

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03-05-2013, 07:51 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by DoyleG View Post
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americ...030252330.html

Poor Slip, cast away by the tides of change.


You actually just made my point:

During more than 14 years in office, Chavez routinely challenged the status quo at home and internationally.

Chavez polarised Venezuelans with his confrontational and domineering style, yet was also a masterful communicator and strategist who tapped into Venezuelan nationalism to win broad support, particularly among the poor.

Chavez repeatedly proved himself a political survivor. As an army paratroop commander, he led a failed coup in 1992, then was pardoned and elected president in 1998. He survived a coup against his own presidency in 2002 and won re-election two more times.

The burly president electrified crowds with his booming voice, often wearing the bright red of his United Socialist Party of Venezuela or the fatigues and red beret of his army days.

Before his struggle with cancer, he appeared on television almost daily, talking for hours at a time and often breaking into song of philosophical discourse.

Chavez used his country's vast oil wealth to launch social programs that include state-run food markets, new public housing, free health clinics and education programs.

Poverty declined during Chavez's presidency amid a historic boom in oil earnings, but critics said he failed to use the windfall of hundreds of billions of dollars to develop the country's economy.

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03-05-2013, 07:53 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by slip View Post
Too bad Venezuela had the highest GNP growth of any South American country last year, double the rate of Argentina and 4X the rate of Brazil.

Nice try, though.
Come on, lets face it. The only thing the Venezuelan economy has going for it is oil. Its a fair criticism that oil has been a crutch and the rest of the economy stagnated due to Chavez's government and its quasi marxist policies.

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03-05-2013, 07:55 PM
  #94
Tim Calhoun
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
Yeah, he behaved as somewhat of a dictator, but he just had a different political philosophy and didn't starve or brutalize his people.

GDP increased by about a factor of 4 during Chavez' tenure. It would be hard to argue that his policies didn't have some positive impacts on the nations.
Real GDP from 1998 to 2011 increased about 38%, which is pretty crappy given the big increase in oil prices and even compared relative to Colombia or Brazil.

(source)

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03-05-2013, 08:04 PM
  #95
Ilkka Sinisalo
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Originally Posted by MojoJojo View Post
Come on, lets face it. The only thing the Venezuelan economy has going for it is oil. Its a fair criticism that oil has been a crutch and the rest of the economy stagnated due to Chavez's government and its quasi marxist policies.
That's a valid criticism of just about every major oil-producing nation on earth. It's not like Saudi Arabia and the UAE have a gangbusters economy outside of petroleum. Venezeula's economy has been strongly dependent on oil for several decades now.

It is inarguable that poverty diminished significantly under Chavez' presidency, food consumption grew massively, and public health and education improved. I don't want to just say "well that's because of oil money" because Venezuela's oil reserves have been tapped for almost 100 years. The previous regimes had the same opportunity to utilize the oil wealth that Chavez had.

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03-05-2013, 08:08 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post


There was never any proposal for limitless terms. The 2007 referendum proposed no term limits and lengthening the presidential term to 7 years. That referendum failed. The referendum in 2009, which proposed eliminating term limits for federal positions, passed. Yes, he performed an end run around the constitution by proposing the new referendum in 2009, but in the end it was ratified by a majority of the voting public after a strong turnout. If the public didn't want him around any more or thought that his new proposed amendment was unconstitutional, they had the chance to vote as such. And many did. But more did not.
And if you knew about the Venezuelan constitution you'd realize that it is illegal to try to do a constitutional referendum twice during the same term of office for the NA, he just went around it by calling it an amendment. But again, it is unconstitutional to make an amendment on the constitution that would change the fundamental structure of the article the amendment is trying to modify, and what can be more of a change to the fundamental structure of the article that deals with limit terms, than a change in limit terms?

I guess people like you care more about populistic measures than the provision of safeguards of institutional measures that would protect the population from those populistic measures. Or maybe it is just ok for us latinos, as I don't think you would accept something like the referendum switcheroo I just described from Obama, or much less from Bush.

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03-05-2013, 08:11 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Johnnywhite View Post
What did Hugo Chavez actually do to merit the unbridled delight at his death from cancer? Disgusting.
Oh please. You - like Chavez (well he can't get on a horse anymore now can he?) and his supporters need to get off your high horses.

Edit: post by post you're getting closer to revealing you are in fact one of those hypocritical idiots who has probably never lived in Venezuela before yet insists it's a pretty great place and Chavez is one of the greatest leaders of his time (LOOOOOOOOOL) - all the bad stuff comes from big bad America. LOL. GTFO.

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03-05-2013, 08:11 PM
  #98
Ilkka Sinisalo
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Originally Posted by SonOfGom View Post
And if you knew about the Venezuelan constitution you'd realize that it is illegal to try to do a constitutional referendum twice during the same term of office for the NA, he just went around it by calling it an amendment. But again, it is unconstitutional to make an amendment on the constitution that would change the fundamental structure of the article the amendment is trying to modify, and what can be more of a change to the fundamental structure of the article that deals with limit terms, than a change in limit terms?

I guess people like you care more about populistic measures than the provision of safeguards of institutional measures that would protect the population from those populistic measures. Or maybe it is just ok for us latinos, as I don't think you would accept something like the referendum switcheroo I just described from Obama, or much less from Bush.
I'm not saying it was okay. It was obviously an end run around the constitution. But it's not like Chavez just said "well **** it I'm gonna be president forever." He was democratically elected four times, survived a recall referendum and even the changes to the constitution were democratically approved. Hewas hardly the tyrant that people are making him out to be.

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03-05-2013, 08:20 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by MojoJojo View Post
The only thing the Venezuelan economy has going for it is oil.
I do need to take issue with this. Petroleum is only 18% of Venezuela's GDP. That's a big figure, but pales in comparison with countries like Saudi Arabia (55%) or Qatar (70%). It's roughly on par with a country like Norway (oil/gas combined), and marginally higher than Russia, and I don't think most people would say that Norway and Russia have nothing going on but oil/gas production.

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03-05-2013, 08:23 PM
  #100
SonOfGom
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
I'm not saying it was okay. It was obviously an end run around the constitution. But it's not like Chavez just said "well **** it I'm gonna be president forever." He was democratically elected four times, survived a recall referendum and even the changes to the constitution were democratically approved. Hewas hardly the tyrant that people are making him out to be.
I vividly remember him saying that he needed to stay as president until 2021 in order for the "revolucion bolivariana" to work. He said that like 1000 ****ing times. Granted, 2021 is not forever, but it's a very long time for a so called democratically elected president.

I would say that he was a popularly elected president, democracy is more involved than having a bunch of people who think you are a new messiah vote for you.

Venezuela after Marcos Perez Jimenez: a quasi-technocratic Tammany Hall on a country wide basis.

Venezuela under Chavez: Tammany Hall on roids lead by a figure who positioned himself as the new liberator, a messiah for the poor.

Venezuela has been **** since the Great Colombia broke up, this is just its apotheosis.

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