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The End of Hugo Chavez?

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Old
03-05-2013, 08:27 PM
  #101
Ilkka Sinisalo
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why is it "so-called democratically elected"? If you have evidence of rampant voter fraud, please share with us. Otherwise, I'll go with the international observers who have repeatedly certified the elections as fair.

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03-05-2013, 08:38 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peon View Post
Oh please. You - like Chavez (well he can't get on a horse anymore now can he?) and his supporters need to get off your high horses.

Edit: post by post you're getting closer to revealing you are in fact one of those hypocritical idiots who has probably never lived in Venezuela before yet insists it's a pretty great place and Chavez is one of the greatest leaders of his time (LOOOOOOOOOL) - all the bad stuff comes from big bad America. LOL. GTFO.
I love how everyone who says any positive word about Chavez is a far-left socialist to rubes like you. All I've been doing in this thread is disputing ridiculous misconceptions - he's a dictator, people are starving left and right, the Venezuelan economy was awesome in the '80s and '90s and then went into the toilet when he "took power." Etc. All I've said is that some aspects of his presidency were positive (diminishing poverty, better public health, lower inequality, greater political stability).

Is Venezuela as good a place to live as Canada or the United States? For most people, no. Is it a better place to live than in 1998? For most people, yes.

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03-05-2013, 08:43 PM
  #103
SonOfGom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
why is it "so-called democratically elected"? If you have evidence of rampant voter fraud, please share with us. Otherwise, I'll go with the international observers who have repeatedly certified the elections as fair.
Is the "Lista Tascon" a democratic measure? perhaps ochlocratic.

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03-05-2013, 08:55 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
I love how everyone who says any positive word about Chavez is a far-left socialist to rubes like you. All I've been doing in this thread is disputing ridiculous misconceptions - he's a dictator, people are starving left and right, the Venezuelan economy was awesome in the '80s and '90s and then went into the toilet when he "took power." Etc. All I've said is that some aspects of his presidency were positive (diminishing poverty, better public health, lower inequality, greater political stability).

Is Venezuela as good a place to live as Canada or the United States? For most people, no. Is it a better place to live than in 1998? For most people, yes.
Dictator: Google Judge Afiuni, that's at the very least autocratic. Judge didn't do what you wanted? Announce that she should be jailed in your variety program.

People are starving: who said that? I only said that there are food shortages due to the meddling of a inefficient government in the food production business. Price ceilings and CADIVI. Google PUDREVAL and how arbitrage is affecting the importation of food.

Better public health: the public hospitals are in woeful condition, and mision barrio adentro is staffed with exploited cuban exchange workers who often get the **** out to the US by way of colombia.

Greater political stability: lol are you serious? Honest question, what do you expect in the man's death's wake?

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03-05-2013, 08:57 PM
  #105
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I once knew someone who lived in Venezuela on another forum. He used to complain about Chavez all the time before he disappeared. He was a well to do economist figure. I bet he is happy now, where-ever he is.

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03-05-2013, 09:04 PM
  #106
Ilkka Sinisalo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonOfGom View Post
Dictator: Google Judge Afiuni, that's at the very least autocratic. Judge didn't do what you wanted? Announce that she should be jailed in your variety program.

People are starving: who said that? I only said that there are food shortages due to the meddling of a inefficient government in the food production business. Price ceilings and CADIVI. Google PUDREVAL and how arbitrage is affecting the importation of food.

Better public health: the public hospitals are in woeful condition, and mision barrio adentro is staffed with exploited cuban exchange workers who often get the **** out to the US by way of colombia.

Greater political stability: lol are you serious? Honest question, what do you expect in the man's death's wake?
He was democratically elected four times, he was not a dictator. People talk about him like he's Mubarak or Gaddhafi. It's moronic.

There are food shortages, yes. Please note that Venezuelan food consumption has risen 100% in the last 10 years, and that food shortages existed in Venezuela before the presidency of Chavez.

Your discussion of public health contradicts the objective evidence that public health improved significantly under the presidency of Chavez. I'm sorry that you had a bad experience in a Venezuelan hospital, though.

In the 15 years preceding Chavez' presidency there were repeated coups, economic messes and the impeachment of a president for corruption. In the 15 years of his presidency there was one short-lived coup that failed due to the military's loyalty to the president and a popular pro-Chavez uprising, and the economy has grown significantly.

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03-05-2013, 09:36 PM
  #107
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There seems to be a lot of praise for Chavez and what he did. I was watching CNN and they had some girl on who said Chavez helped form a Venezuelan identity. He also "helped the economy" (which is debunked by his critics who directly point out that he didn't help **** and poverty actually got worse)

I am biased, but that's maybe because I'm a sheep of the American media. The American media and government made Chavez out to be a terrible individual. He frequently harbored ill will against the United States, but never really took any action. And I'll believe what the papers and TV people tell me: he was a bad man, he stymied political freedom, and Venezuela is better off without him. That's what I say.

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03-05-2013, 09:38 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
He was democratically elected four times, he was not a dictator. People talk about him like he's Mubarak or Gaddhafi. It's moronic.

There are food shortages, yes. Please note that Venezuelan food consumption has risen 100% in the last 10 years, and that food shortages existed in Venezuela before the presidency of Chavez.

Your discussion of public health contradicts the objective evidence that public health improved significantly under the presidency of Chavez. I'm sorry that you had a bad experience in a Venezuelan hospital, though.

In the 15 years preceding Chavez' presidency there were repeated coups, economic messes and the impeachment of a president for corruption. In the 15 years of his presidency there was one short-lived coup that failed due to the military's loyalty to the president and a popular pro-Chavez uprising, and the economy has grown significantly.
Consumption increased, sure, there was a massive petrodollar windfall in the economy, but why hasn't supply met the demand, then?

I absolutely love how you keep talking about how there were coup attempts prior to 1998. Yes, there were coup attempts... by Chavez! and other milicos inspired by him and his bolivarian mumbo jumbo ********. (As a side note if I ever see another mural with Bolivar and Marx down there, I'm going to explode)

Hah! Military loyalty for Chavez, who the hell do you think took him off? and who do you think put him back in. Hint, it was the same guy. The reason he was put back in was because the ******* Carmona, went nuts and made the situation worse. I wouldn't say that they aren't loyal now, looking the other way while your Minister of Defense get's his assets in the US frozen by the Treasury department (not that you would put much weight on that little factoid)

Whatever, the country is ****ed, I just hope my family that's still there can get out. I don't think neither Maduro, Cabello, or any other lackey that can win the power struggle, have the glue that chavez had to keep everything together without resorting to more serious repression.

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03-05-2013, 09:40 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ixcuincle View Post
There seems to be a lot of praise for Chavez and what he did. I was watching CNN and they had some girl on who said Chavez helped form a Venezuelan identity. He also "helped the economy" (which is debunked by his critics who directly point out that he didn't help **** and poverty actually got worse)

I am biased, but that's maybe because I'm a sheep of the American media. The American media and government made Chavez out to be a terrible individual. He frequently harbored ill will against the United States, but never really took any action. And I'll believe what the papers and TV people tell me: he was a bad man, he stymied political freedom, and Venezuela is better off without him. That's what I say.
WTF, lol.

Goddammit, Chavez the new Bolivar. If Bolivar was the subject of Venezuela's secular religion I wonder what Chavez will be.

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03-05-2013, 09:45 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
why is it "so-called democratically elected"? If you have evidence of rampant voter fraud, please share with us. Otherwise, I'll go with the international observers who have repeatedly certified the elections as fair.

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03-05-2013, 10:05 PM
  #111
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Mancini sighting

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03-05-2013, 10:06 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by SonOfGom View Post
WTF, lol.

Goddammit, Chavez the new Bolivar. If Bolivar was the subject of Venezuela's secular religion I wonder what Chavez will be.
I kid you not, this woman was a "Chavez advisor" and said he helped Venezuelan nationalism, which wasn't there before.

I'm obviously not going to like the guy because he trashed America so many times, but the news showing him giving that book to Obama was hilarious. Of course he later turned heel on Obama.

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03-05-2013, 10:24 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by DoyleG View Post
With South American economies running gangbusters in growth, Venezuela looks even worse off.

Sad considering that in the 80s and 90s they were seen as a symbol of economic and political progress in Latin and South America.
Nice to see Pinochet still has a few fans out there.

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03-05-2013, 10:27 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Nice to see Pinochet still has a few fans out there.
Pinochet was in Chile.

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03-05-2013, 10:33 PM
  #115
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As a dictator Chavez was benign compared to others, probably on the same level as Putin. Sure civil liberties and rights were curbed, but the standard of living rose for the citizens. At the end of the day, who cares about freedom when you are struggling to put food in your mouth? Give me the ability to survive then I can worry about other fluff after.

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03-05-2013, 10:34 PM
  #116
Ilkka Sinisalo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ixcuincle View Post
He also "helped the economy" (which is debunked by his critics who directly point out that he didn't help **** and poverty actually got worse)
This is absolutely, demonstrably false.

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=ve&v=69

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy...mic_indicators

The poverty rate of households decreased from 43.9% in 1998 to 21.2% in 2011. The poverty rate of individuals decreased from 48.7% to 33.2%. There are certainly legitimate criticisms of Chavez' presidency, but it's obnoxious that so many people make **** up because he's a leftist who said mean things about America.

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03-05-2013, 10:39 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by DanielBryanRoleModel View Post
Pinochet was in Chile.
Read the comment I responded to.

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03-05-2013, 10:40 PM
  #118
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And I do think it's funny to see (fellow) Americans referring to him as a dictator and bashing the legitimacy of Venezuelan elections. Do they have rampant gerrymandering, politicians actively trying to disenfranchise voters, corporations and wealthy individuals investing billions to sway voters' opinions, hanging chads, malfunctioning voting machines, day-long lines? Did they have a state governed by the brother of a presidential candidate deciding an election, and a narrowly-divided court decision (a court on which two nominees of the candidate's father) putting a stop to the recount? Face it, if this stuff happened in another country we'd make fun of it like it's a banana republic.

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03-05-2013, 10:41 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by DanielBryanRoleModel View Post
Pinochet was in Chile.
So was Allende until 9/11/73

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03-05-2013, 10:45 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Read the comment I responded to.
He was correcting you.

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03-05-2013, 10:49 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Tim Calhoun View Post
Real GDP from 1998 to 2011 increased about 38%, which is pretty crappy given the big increase in oil prices and even compared relative to Colombia or Brazil.

(source)
Pretty interesting how countries like Brazil and Argentina and Chile started kicking ass economically when they handed the keys over to leftists.

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03-05-2013, 10:50 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by DoyleG View Post
He was correcting you.
Misread "they" as referring to South American countries in the 1980s/90s, rather than specifically Venezuela.

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03-05-2013, 10:51 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by DoyleG View Post
He was correcting you.
You're about the last person who should be the arbiter of accuracy, given your track record in this thread.

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03-05-2013, 10:56 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Misread "they" as referring to South American countries in the 1980s/90s, rather than specifically Venezuela.
Thought the comment was relevant & quite subtle...even true!

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03-05-2013, 10:58 PM
  #125
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Misread "they" as referring to South American countries in the 1980s/90s, rather than specifically Venezuela.
Sorry for misreading your misreading.

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