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2013 Leafs Trades/Proposals/Signings VIII: Less then a month until the deadline

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Old
03-05-2013, 08:58 PM
  #26
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Kadri is the best Leaf draft pick in 15 years and he is going to be a #1C

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03-05-2013, 09:00 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Anthrax442 View Post
Well I look at this realistically:

Kadri is not going to be a premier 1st line center. He is not going to be: Datsyuk, Malkin, Crosby, Lecavalier, Stamkos, Toews, Getzlaf, Zetterberg, Giroux, Tavares, Sedin, Spezza, Seguin, Eberle, RNH, Staal1, Staal2, Sharp, Thornton, Cotoure, Mikko Koivu, Backstrum (maybe), Skinner, Bergeron, Carter, Kane.

If he becomes a Briere, we will be ever so lucky, but I bet he will become a Ribiero tops - a talented Center that people shrug off, because they are inconsistent, and have that "something about them" stench that makes any team on the competing verge pass on him 9 times out of 10. SO he scored a few goals right now, nice flash and dash, forgive me for not buying into the hype. Let him play 3 years, get himself built up and actually learn how to play onthe 1st line and have him face the best defensemen on a nightly basis, and then I'll buy into the hype.

Right now all he does is making Grabovski's line the 3rd line grunts, when he gets paid to drive the offense and not grind out vs the opposition's big boys.


As of right now this is the way I see this roster: Our BEST players are in their prime: Phaneuf, Kessel, Grabovski, Lupul, JvR. We need the upgrade to be competing consistently for the next 4 years. Kadri would bring back the best value the way he plays now, it's a risk, but I say he will bring the most and not top up where all the people in pink-colored glasses think he will top out.
I love when people make claims like this. Was Datsyuk ever supposed to become the player we know today? How about Zetterberg? Half the guys you listed were not supposed to become elite players. Kadri could absolutely become a 1st line centre. He has, without a doubt, been one of the best forwards in the NHL this season. He is 22. The sky is the limit for him. Guys like Giroux were 22/23 when the broke out like kadri and he Kadri was as good a prospect as most of the guys you listed

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03-05-2013, 09:01 PM
  #28
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Price would likely be Kadri +
I would do Gardiner+ for sure. A Backstrom/Kadri 1-2 punch down the middle would be unreal.

I wouldn't be opposed to doing Gardiner, Kulemin, Percy, 1st rounder.

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03-05-2013, 09:04 PM
  #29
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I love when people make claims like this. Was Datsyuk ever supposed to become the player we know today? How about Zetterberg? Half the guys you listed were not supposed to become elite players. Kadri could absolutely become a 1st line centre. He has, without a doubt, been one of the best forwards in the NHL this season. He is 22. The sky is the limit for him. Guys like Giroux were 22/23 when the broke out like kadri and he Kadri was as good a prospect as most of the guys you listed
Datsyuk and Zetterberg were drafted at times where teams did not spend much money in European scouting. That doesn't happen anymore. RIght now Kadri has as much chance to become an elite player as becoming Wellwood.

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03-05-2013, 09:08 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Anthrax442 View Post
Well I look at this realistically:

Kadri is not going to be a premier 1st line center. He is not going to be: Datsyuk, Malkin, Crosby, Lecavalier, Stamkos, Toews, Getzlaf, Zetterberg, Giroux, Tavares, Sedin, Spezza, Seguin, Eberle, RNH, Staal1, Staal2, Sharp, Thornton, Cotoure, Mikko Koivu, Backstrum (maybe), Skinner, Bergeron, Carter, Kane.

If he becomes a Briere, we will be ever so lucky, but I bet he will become a Ribiero tops - a talented Center that people shrug off, because they are inconsistent, and have that "something about them" stench that makes any team on the competing verge pass on him 9 times out of 10. SO he scored a few goals right now, nice flash and dash, forgive me for not buying into the hype. Let him play 3 years, get himself built up and actually learn how to play onthe 1st line and have him face the best defensemen on a nightly basis, and then I'll buy into the hype.

Right now all he does is making Grabovski's line the 3rd line grunts, when he gets paid to drive the offense and not grind out vs the opposition's big boys.


As of right now this is the way I see this roster: Our BEST players are in their prime: Phaneuf, Kessel, Grabovski, Lupul, JvR. We need the upgrade to be competing consistently for the next 4 years. Kadri would bring back the best value the way he plays now, it's a risk, but I say he will bring the most and not top up where all the people in pink-colored glasses think he will top out.
I've heard people say Nazem doesn't play against the other teams best defenders night-in and night-out, so I decided to do a little research. Here is a game-by-game breakdown of both goals and assists, and which defenders were on the ice for each opponent:

Goals:
  1. @ MTL - Gorges (20:31), Bouillon (18:29)
  2. vs. BUF - Myers (20:20), Regehr (18:40)
  3. vs. NYI - Hamonic (23:17), MacDonald (24:18)
  4. @ CAR - McBain (19:47), Corvo (18:25)
  5. @ FLA - Kulikov (21:44), Strachan (16:57)
  6. @ NYI - Hamonic (23:17), MacDonald (24:18)
  7. @ NYI - Streit (25:20), Finley (11:33)
  8. @ NYI - Streit (25:20), Visnovsky (23:05)
  9. vs. NJD - Zidlicky (19:34), Tallinder (16:08)

With this being said, I would classify a top-pairing defender as having an average ice time of 22+ minutes, a second-pairing defender anywhere between 18-22 minutes, and a bottom-pairing defender as less than 18 minutes. Using this classification system, he has scored a goal while playing against 7 top-pairing defenders, 9 second-pairing defenders, and 2 bottom-pairing defenders. Of the times Kadri has scored a goal, the ATOI of the defenders he's been playing against has been 20:37. From this information, it can be said that Kadri mostly sees second-pairing defensemen.

While he doesn't regularly see the other team's top defenders, he certainly hasn't scored the majority of his goals against the opposition's weakest defenders. Only ~11% of the defenders that have been on the ice when Kadri has scored are bottom-pairing.

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Old
03-05-2013, 09:13 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by ToneBone03 View Post
I've heard people say Nazem doesn't play against the other teams best defenders night-in and night-out, so I decided to do a little research. Here is a game-by-game breakdown of both goals and assists, and which defenders were on the ice for each opponent:

Goals:
  1. @ MTL - Gorges (20:31), Bouillon (18:29)
  2. vs. BUF - Myers (20:20), Regehr (18:40)
  3. vs. NYI - Hamonic (23:17), MacDonald (24:18)
  4. @ CAR - McBain (19:47), Corvo (18:25)
  5. @ FLA - Kulikov (21:44), Strachan (16:57)
  6. @ NYI - Hamonic (23:17), MacDonald (24:18)
  7. @ NYI - Streit (25:20), Finley (11:33)
  8. @ NYI - Streit (25:20), Visnovsky (23:05)
  9. vs. NJD - Zidlicky (19:34), Tallinder (16:08)

With this being said, I would classify a top-pairing defender as having an average ice time of 22+ minutes, a second-pairing defender anywhere between 18-22 minutes, and a bottom-pairing defender as less than 18 minutes. Using this classification system, he has scored a goal while playing against 7 top-pairing defenders, 9 second-pairing defenders, and 2 bottom-pairing defenders. Of the times Kadri has scored a goal, the ATOI of the defenders he's been playing against has been 20:37. From this information, it can be said that Kadri mostly sees second-pairing defensemen.

While he doesn't regularly see the other team's top defenders, he certainly hasn't scored the majority of his goals against the opposition's weakest defenders.

I can't say that I would want any of these defensemen in my top 4 defensively. I don't see a Scott Stevens here per se. Guys like Streit and Zidlicy are Offensive guys and get their minutes in PPs and other areas. I'd like to see some stats of the games he didn't score at and who was shutting him down.

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Old
03-05-2013, 09:15 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Anthrax442 View Post
I can't say that I would want any of these defensemen in my top 4 defensively. I don't see a Scott Stevens here per se. Guys like Streit and Zidlicy are Offensive guys and get their minutes in PPs and other areas. I'd like to see some stats of the games he didn't score at and who was shutting him down.
If I were to do that it'd probably take me a month to compile all of the information, LOL.

Also, STOMP!!! (username)

EDIT: You also can't nitpick and say your "top-4 defensively". A defense is made up of offensive- and defensive-minded defensemen. The pecking order is determined by icetime.

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Old
03-05-2013, 09:16 PM
  #33
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Look at this:



THIS player was really hyped. I still see enough of Wellwood jerseys. Some people here that argue otherwise probably too young to remember. This is what Kadri can turn out to be just as easily as some of you think that he will become a top 5 Center in the league. Hold your horses, relax, have some herbal tea and reserve your hype to 3 years from now.

But meanwhile, I'll trade him in a blink of an eye for a premier 1C. Our team is positioned to win in the next 3 years.

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Old
03-05-2013, 09:17 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by ToneBone03 View Post
If I were to do that it'd probably take me a month to compile all of the information, LOL.

Also, STOMP!!! (username)
Yes! 15 years later someone actually got it.

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Old
03-05-2013, 09:20 PM
  #35
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Please don't compare Wellwood and Kadri ...

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Old
03-05-2013, 09:21 PM
  #36
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Please don't compare Wellwood and Kadri ...
Please tell other not to compare Kadri to Gilmour and we'll all be friends.

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Old
03-05-2013, 09:22 PM
  #37
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Yes! 15 years later someone actually got it.
Of course, man. Although I'm more partial to their 80s material!

To stay on topic, I just enjoy watching Nazem play. Yeah, with his play of late it's really easy to "overhype" him and peg him as a superstar in-the-making, which is totally possible, but he could turn out to be another Wellwood, like you said. The sky is the limit for Nazem, it's just a matter of him continuing to play with skill, grit, determination, and that competitive edge that he has that I love so much.

People still need to temper their expectations. I can only imagine what the boards will be like if he goes into a slump...

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03-05-2013, 09:23 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by ToneBone03 View Post
Of course, man. Although I'm more partial to their 80s material!

To stay on topic, I just enjoy watching Nazem play. Yeah, with his play of late it's really easy to "overhype" him and peg him as a superstar in-the-making, which is totally possible, but he could turn out to be another Wellwood, like you said. The sky is the limit for Nazem, it's just a matter of him continuing to play with skill, grit, determination, and that competitive edge that he has that I love so much.

People still need to temper their expectations. I can only imagine what the boards will be like if he goes into a slump...


"Kadri didn't score tonight."

It's hard to preach moderation.

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Old
03-05-2013, 09:31 PM
  #39
Dwight K Schrute
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"Kadri didn't score tonight."

It's hard to preach moderation.
You are not preaching moderation. You are saying he has no chance of being a #1c. Sure, he might not be anything more than a solid #2 centre but he certainly has the ability to be more. You have no idea how good or bad he will be.

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03-05-2013, 09:37 PM
  #40
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I've always thought the kadri riberio comparison was fair
Still think it is

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03-05-2013, 09:47 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Anthrax442 View Post
Well I look at this realistically:

Kadri is not going to be a premier 1st line center. He is not going to be: Datsyuk, Malkin, Crosby, Lecavalier, Stamkos, Toews, Getzlaf, Zetterberg, Giroux, Tavares, Sedin, Spezza, Seguin, Eberle, RNH, Staal1, Staal2, Sharp, Thornton, Cotoure, Mikko Koivu, Backstrum (maybe), Skinner, Bergeron, Carter, Kane.

If he becomes a Briere, we will be ever so lucky, but I bet he will become a Ribiero tops - a talented Center that people shrug off, because they are inconsistent, and have that "something about them" stench that makes any team on the competing verge pass on him 9 times out of 10. SO he scored a few goals right now, nice flash and dash, forgive me for not buying into the hype. Let him play 3 years, get himself built up and actually learn how to play onthe 1st line and have him face the best defensemen on a nightly basis, and then I'll buy into the hype.

Right now all he does is making Grabovski's line the 3rd line grunts, when he gets paid to drive the offense and not grind out vs the opposition's big boys.


As of right now this is the way I see this roster: Our BEST players are in their prime: Phaneuf, Kessel, Grabovski, Lupul, JvR. We need the upgrade to be competing consistently for the next 4 years. Kadri would bring back the best value the way he plays now, it's a risk, but I say he will bring the most and not top up where all the people in pink-colored glasses think he will top out.
You probably thought Kadri was a "bust" like so many others, and you have been proven wrong.

All Kadri has done so far, is made those around him better and upped his game. He competes hard, has a ridiculous amount if skill, and is becoming a good pro.

He might not become an elite player (I think he has a very good chance to) but I'd rather find that out with him on our team.

You'd think some of these short sighted Leafs fans would have learned their lessons by now. Guess not

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Old
03-05-2013, 09:49 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Anthrax442 View Post
Datsyuk and Zetterberg were drafted at times where teams did not spend much money in European scouting. That doesn't happen anymore. RIght now Kadri has as much chance to become an elite player as becoming Wellwood.
Ron Wilson is that you?

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03-05-2013, 09:57 PM
  #43
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I've always thought the kadri riberio comparison was fair
Still think it is
Is that even a bad comparison? The team isn't doing great, but Ribeiro is getting the job done out in Washington.

In the end will just have to see what Kadri becomes over the years. I will say he's proven himself to be more than what I expected. So based on that I shouldn't bother trying to predict what he'll be a couple years down the road either .

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03-05-2013, 09:59 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Anthrax442 View Post
Datsyuk and Zetterberg were drafted at times where teams did not spend much money in European scouting. That doesn't happen anymore. RIght now Kadri has as much chance to become an elite player as becoming Wellwood.
You talk about it like it was 50 years ago. Of course teams exhausted every resource possible in Europe 10 years ago. We drafted Antropov out of Kazakhstan 15 years ago. Also, Wellwood scored 11 goals in 81 games as a 22/23yo. Kadri has 9 in 23 games. Not comparable at all.

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03-05-2013, 10:02 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Anthrax442 View Post
Look at this:



THIS player was really hyped. I still see enough of Wellwood jerseys. Some people here that argue otherwise probably too young to remember. This is what Kadri can turn out to be just as easily as some of you think that he will become a top 5 Center in the league. Hold your horses, relax, have some herbal tea and reserve your hype to 3 years from now.

But meanwhile, I'll trade him in a blink of an eye for a premier 1C. Our team is positioned to win in the next 3 years.

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03-05-2013, 10:24 PM
  #46
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I've always thought the kadri ribeiro comparison was fair
Still think it is
And I would be extremely pleased if Kadri turned out like that(minus the diving and embarrassment act of Ribeiro).

Ribeiro is a very very good player and he is currently sitting at 25 pts(leading all Caps players) in 20 games so far. I think he is one of the better #1b C in the league and if Kadri pans out like that, we all should be very happy.

Seriously, people need to put hate aside for Rebeiro and look at him more closely as a hockey player, he is one of the most skilled player in the league and he has proven a helluva lot already by putting up 70+ points 3 times and even breaking a PPG once not too long ago.

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03-05-2013, 10:30 PM
  #47
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Please tell other not to compare Kadri to Gilmour and we'll all be friends.
I don't think anyone has or is trying to compare him directly to Gilmour or I should say his overall game and production.

What people are trying to specifically compare is their few similar traits and qualities that both possess. Kadri loves to get gritty, he plays feisty, he has tremendous offensive skills, he is not afraid to take a risk, he hustles every shift, not afraid to drop gloves and stand up for himself are some of the similarities that Gilmour had back in the day.

I agree that Kadri may never be able to ever put up the same point production, selke calibre defense or generally provide the same impact as Gilmour but he does have few qualities in his game that relates to Gilmour.

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03-05-2013, 10:35 PM
  #48
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I've heard people say Nazem doesn't play against the other teams best defenders night-in and night-out, so I decided to do a little research. Here is a game-by-game breakdown of both goals and assists, and which defenders were on the ice for each opponent:

Goals:
  1. @ MTL - Gorges (20:31), Bouillon (18:29)
  2. vs. BUF - Myers (20:20), Regehr (18:40)
  3. vs. NYI - Hamonic (23:17), MacDonald (24:18)
  4. @ CAR - McBain (19:47), Corvo (18:25)
  5. @ FLA - Kulikov (21:44), Strachan (16:57)
  6. @ NYI - Hamonic (23:17), MacDonald (24:18)
  7. @ NYI - Streit (25:20), Finley (11:33)
  8. @ NYI - Streit (25:20), Visnovsky (23:05)
  9. vs. NJD - Zidlicky (19:34), Tallinder (16:08)

With this being said, I would classify a top-pairing defender as having an average ice time of 22+ minutes, a second-pairing defender anywhere between 18-22 minutes, and a bottom-pairing defender as less than 18 minutes. Using this classification system, he has scored a goal while playing against 7 top-pairing defenders, 9 second-pairing defenders, and 2 bottom-pairing defenders. Of the times Kadri has scored a goal, the ATOI of the defenders he's been playing against has been 20:37. From this information, it can be said that Kadri mostly sees second-pairing defensemen.

While he doesn't regularly see the other team's top defenders, he certainly hasn't scored the majority of his goals against the opposition's weakest defenders. Only ~11% of the defenders that have been on the ice when Kadri has scored are bottom-pairing.
I figured I would do the same evaluation of Kadri's assists as well:

Assists:
  1. @ PIT - Despres (13:51), Engelland (13:13)
  2. vs. NYI - Hamonic (23:18), MacDonald (24:19)
  3. @ BUF - Myers (20:23), Leopold (21:15)
  4. vs. WSH - Schultz (12:58), Kundratek (15:41)
  5. vs. CAR - Harrison (20:01), Sanguinetti (14:52)
  6. @ WPG - Stuart (17:47), Redmond (19:34)
  7. vs. PHI - Coburn (23:02), Gervais (16:39)
  8. vs. PHI - Grossmann (18:01), Foster (13:23)
  9. @ FLA - Campbell (25:43), Kulikov (21:44)
  10. @ OTT - Phillips (20:09), Methot (22:56)
  11. @ PHI - Schenn (20:00), Gervais (16:39)
  12. @ PHI - Coburn (23:02), Grossmann (18:01)
  13. vs. MTL - Markov (24:24), Emelin (20:03)
  14. vs. NJD - Salvador (21:53), Fayne (18:57)

Using the same critera,

1st Pairing - 7
2nd " - 12
3rd " - 9

ATOI for defenders while Kadri assists: 19:21
ATOI for defenders while Kadri gets a point: 19:59

On average, Kadri scores a point against defensemen who average ~20:00 of icetime per game.

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Old
03-05-2013, 10:40 PM
  #49
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Can we get back to talking trades?

If Nonis is seriously considering a top centre, and dangling Kessel .. What are realistic targets?

I can really only think of a Duchene in terms of relative equal value .. Everything else, IMO, would be a good, but not elite, young centre + for Kessel ...

Giving the depth of wingers the Leafs have, it's not a completely outrageous idea

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03-05-2013, 10:45 PM
  #50
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Bozak + Kessel + Liles for Benn + Daley+ pick

Added Bozak due to Kessel being a UFA in a season and Benn+Daley being signed to nice contracts.

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