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Hockey in Britain part 3

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03-06-2013, 02:37 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
Nearly all of the best hockey players start skating as soon as they can walk, it's pretty much a necessity of the sport, whereas I grew up with guys who have gone on to play professional rugby league in the Super League for Warrington and internationally for England who did not even start playing school level rugby union until age 9 at the earliest and didn't play school rugby league until they were in secondary school, they were both big guys who were quick and strong, they got scouted by Warrington and were then given proper development in rugby league. Of course accessibility plays a part, it's easy to play school level football but not hockey, there is no structured competition here for kids at that level, that's the point.
School level football? Er .... that's basically schmuck level. It's true that many of the best talents per age group for most nations start at 5/6, though a function of that is often due to their parents involvement in the sport. Football doesn't require the same exact structure at the youngest ages, however high end professional footballers will have been playing/obsessed with the sport since a similar age.

Rugby is a sport focused more on pure physical traits, traits that don't manifest properly until later on. So yes, in Rugby one can pick up the sport later.

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What I mean by brains is hockey IQ, while some naturally have more than others as shown in the NHL, it takes many years to develop it. I'm a goalie and I have all the basic hockey skills but I play very very low level roller hockey as a skater and I make terrible decisions with the puck and cause turnovers because I lack hockey IQ due to inexperience. It's a very underrated attribute, especially on this website.
Decision making and awareness of ones surrounding environment are critical attributes in the majority of sports. Yes, "Hockey IQ" is an important trait, and something you look for in developing players, however to say it's more important in hockey than in other sports is to be somewhat disingenious and biased towards your favourite sport. There are many technically gifted players with good raw physical attributes in football who are limited by poor decision making. Tennis requires a constant ability to make quick efficient decisions. As do many other sports. To succeed in Ice Hockey, one doesn't require more "brains" than any other sport.

Again, your example is really flawed and contradictory. I imagine if you played central defense in a football game, your decision making would be highly detrimental to your team, when you reach a certain level of medicority and competency skill level.

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The overall point is, if the need to start early in order to make it did not exist, less young teenagers and pre-teenagers would be put off from taking up the sport, and there would be more "mediocre" players developed boosting the overall talent level of the domestic leagues, and then the more talented players could develop better. As of right now, the British junior leagues are all dominated by a select number of players, each team has a couple of top players who do all the scoring and the rest are below average and 80% never make it above NIHL2 level. I have seen it year after year. I've spoken to dozens of young hockey fans and I ask them "why don't you play?" and they all give the same answer: "I thought it was too late to start"
What you say is somewhat obvious ; the more players you indoctrinate into the sport at a young age, the greater number of better players in theory we produce. The same can be said for the majority of sports. If you want to reach a proficient level at any semi globalised sport, you're going to have to start at a young age. You think football stars, top flat and national hunt jockeys, top tennis players, top swimmers etc didn't begin at a very very young age? I agree with your premise to an extent in that youth development needs to begin early with ice hockey, but your notion that this is more apparent in ice hockey is very inaccurate.

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03-06-2013, 03:31 AM
  #177
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School level football? Er .... that's basically schmuck level. It's true that many of the best talents per age group for most nations start at 5/6, though a function of that is often due to their parents involvement in the sport. Football doesn't require the same exact structure at the youngest ages, however high end professional footballers will have been playing/obsessed with the sport since a similar age.

Rugby is a sport focused more on pure physical traits, traits that don't manifest properly until later on. So yes, in Rugby one can pick up the sport later.



Decision making and awareness of ones surrounding environment are critical attributes in the majority of sports. Yes, "Hockey IQ" is an important trait, and something you look for in developing players, however to say it's more important in hockey than in other sports is to be somewhat disingenious and biased towards your favourite sport. There are many technically gifted players with good raw physical attributes in football who are limited by poor decision making. Tennis requires a constant ability to make quick efficient decisions. As do many other sports. To succeed in Ice Hockey, one doesn't require more "brains" than any other sport.

Again, your example is really flawed and contradictory. I imagine if you played central defense in a football game, your decision making would be highly detrimental to your team, when you reach a certain level of medicority and competency skill level.



What you say is somewhat obvious ; the more players you indoctrinate into the sport at a young age, the greater number of better players in theory we produce. The same can be said for the majority of sports. If you want to reach a proficient level at any semi globalised sport, you're going to have to start at a young age. You think football stars, top flat and national hunt jockeys, top tennis players, top swimmers etc didn't begin at a very very young age? I agree with your premise to an extent in that youth development needs to begin early with ice hockey, but your notion that this is more apparent in ice hockey is very inaccurate.
UK B league junior ice hockey is basically schmuck level, I don't like to say it, but it's true, I would know, I played it. It really is no better than school level football or rugby, but obviously you've never seen it, so you didn't know that.

I hate to use the age old typical HF argument "you have never played the game" but here, I feel I have to. I've played many sports over the years at structured level, I've played club level rugby union, club football, club cricket, and a bit of inter-school competition tennis, field hockey, as well as obviously ice hockey and a bit of roller hockey. Ice hockey has by far the largest requirement of skills and cognitive ability than all of the others, to play at a basic structured level. Like I said earlier, the lowest level of structured junior hockey is no better than school football. Of course there are other sports that require more skill, but they are not the mainstream sports, and are usually not team sports (first examples I can think of are F1 driving and gymnastics). But of course that's just like, my opinion, man.


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03-06-2013, 05:31 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
UK B league junior ice hockey is basically schmuck level, I don't like to say it, but it's true, I would know, I played it. It really is no better than school level football or rugby, but obviously you've never seen it, so you didn't know that.
Beside the point is one is structured and affliated, the other not, these are extremely medicore complexes of talent.

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I hate to use the age old typical HF argument "you have never played the game" but here, I feel I have to. I've played many sports over the years at structured level, I've played club level rugby union, club football, club cricket, and a bit of inter-school competition tennis, field hockey, as well as obviously ice hockey and a bit of roller hockey. Ice hockey has by far the largest requirement of skills and cognitive ability than all of the others, to play at a basic structured level. Like I said earlier, the lowest level of structured junior hockey is no better than school football. Of course there are other sports that require more skill, but they are not the mainstream sports, and are usually not team sports (first examples I can think of are F1 driving and gymnastics). But of course that's just like, my opinion, man.
Cognitive? At what level? Your level? Competent level? High level? This discussion is framed within players needing to start early to become relatively high end players. Such a concept is common practice in most sports. Ice hockey might have harder basic skills to develop (Since they are in effect not natural skills to us), however to reach an elite level at the sport, you've given no data or information to suggest ice hockey actually is harder. Your experiences of playing extremely low level football and medicore structured ice hockey niether confirms nor denies that salient point ; you aren't remotely close to fitting an example that complies with the hypothesis.

If you want to say ice hockey is a harder sport to initially pick up over football, tennis etc at a basic level ... i agree. What you're actually trying to imply is that ice hockey is a harder sport to play and develop to an elite level .... which is an unfounded argument.

Finally, these sports that have more "skill" are observed through your definition of what "skill" is. What is skill? What do you define it as? Anticipation, hand eye co-ordination, speed, stamina, mental capacity, strength? Skill is an ambigious term.

You're right, i've never played ice hockey, and likely never will. Of course, if i had, my experiences at a low level in a variety of sports implemented as a cross comparison is basically useless when assessing this topic. It would be an opinion formed through weak experiences and a personal bias orientated around what as an athlete i am genetically and mentally more suited for. I would be more suited to football than ice hockey because of my body type. Not much one can glean from that. Hence your experiences really are of little use when trying to tackle such a broad question ; a question that is arbitary to begin with.

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03-06-2013, 06:32 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Beside the point is one is structured and affliated, the other not, these are extremely medicore complexes of talent.



Cognitive? At what level? Your level? Competent level? High level? This discussion is framed within players needing to start early to become relatively high end players. Such a concept is common practice in most sports. Ice hockey might have harder basic skills to develop (Since they are in effect not natural skills to us), however to reach an elite level at the sport, you've given no data or information to suggest ice hockey actually is harder. Your experiences of playing extremely low level football and medicore structured ice hockey niether confirms nor denies that salient point ; you aren't remotely close to fitting an example that complies with the hypothesis.

If you want to say ice hockey is a harder sport to initially pick up over football, tennis etc at a basic level ... i agree. What you're actually trying to imply is that ice hockey is a harder sport to play and develop to an elite level .... which is an unfounded argument.

Finally, these sports that have more "skill" are observed through your definition of what "skill" is. What is skill? What do you define it as? Anticipation, hand eye co-ordination, speed, stamina, mental capacity, strength? Skill is an ambigious term.

You're right, i've never played ice hockey, and likely never will. Of course, if i had, my experiences at a low level in a variety of sports implemented as a cross comparison is basically useless when assessing this topic. It would be an opinion formed through weak experiences and a personal bias orientated around what as an athlete i am genetically and mentally more suited for. I would be more suited to football than ice hockey because of my body type. Not much one can glean from that. Hence your experiences really are of little use when trying to tackle such a broad question ; a question that is arbitary to begin with.
Ok, I think my point was not made clearly enough, when I said "In order to succeed" I did not mean elite level i.e. NHL. Obviously as you said in all sports the elite start at young age. I was talking about the lower levels, but are still a decent competitive level. You would not find a player in the EIHL or even the EPIHL who started playing after their 10th birthday at the latest, go down to NIHL division 1, you might find a few, maybe. Those are hardly high levels. Many would consider making it to EPIHL level in British hockey "succeeding" as it is semi-professional.

But yes, I do believe hockey is a harder sport to play and develop to the elite level, based on my experiences playing different sports and due to facts: the huge number of different physical skill required and the difficulty of those skills. I also believe the cognitive skill is more important, due to the pace of the game. Yes football requires a great deal of awareness and all that but you have a lot more time with the ball to make decisions compared to hockey.

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03-06-2013, 01:05 PM
  #180
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Ok, I think my point was not made clearly enough, when I said "In order to succeed" I did not mean elite level i.e. NHL. Obviously as you said in all sports the elite start at young age. I was talking about the lower levels, but are still a decent competitive level. You would not find a player in the EIHL or even the EPIHL who started playing after their 10th birthday at the latest, go down to NIHL division 1, you might find a few, maybe. Those are hardly high levels. Many would consider making it to EPIHL level in British hockey "succeeding" as it is semi-professional.
This all seems convuluted. You're spinning a circle that i don't see the point of.


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But yes, I do believe hockey is a harder sport to play and develop to the elite level, based on my experiences playing different sports and due to facts: the huge number of different physical skill required and the difficulty of those skills. I also believe the cognitive skill is more important, due to the pace of the game. Yes football requires a great deal of awareness and all that but you have a lot more time with the ball to make decisions compared to hockey.
Your experiences are not facts. I can jump on board with the idea that ice hockey is initially a harder game to play because of it's peculiarities. Your experiences however, do not come remotely close to providing any semblance of imperical evidence that ice hockey is a harder sport to reach the elite at than any other sport.

Claiming a certain sport is harder than any other sport requires alot more than a sole persons "experiences" (again, what your good at/body type can manipulate your views on this anyway), nevermind how loborious and arbitary a question it is, since no defined hierarchy in "skills" exists. You've simply arbitarily assigned certain skills that you believe to be harder than others.

For the sake of constructing your argument, are you saying ice hockey requires a more difficult combination of skills that align, or that it is a sport that requires a higher execution in decision making, or both?

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03-06-2013, 01:51 PM
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This all seems convuluted. You're spinning a circle that i don't see the point of.
If you still aren't getting the point, I really don't know what else to say. You don't know the system like I do, let's just leave it at that. The rest of the argument is irrelevant to the original point, so I'm not even going to bother. I'm starting to believe the only reason you bother coming here is to argue with me for the sake of arguing.


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Your experiences are not facts. I can jump on board with the idea that ice hockey is initially a harder game to play because of it's peculiarities. Your experiences however, do not come remotely close to providing any semblance of imperical evidence that ice hockey is a harder sport to reach the elite at than any other sport.

Claiming a certain sport is harder than any other sport requires alot more than a sole persons "experiences" (again, what your good at/body type can manipulate your views on this anyway), nevermind how loborious and arbitary a question it is, since no defined hierarchy in "skills" exists. You've simply arbitarily assigned certain skills that you believe to be harder than others.

For the sake of constructing your argument, are you saying ice hockey requires a more difficult combination of skills that align, or that it is a sport that requires a higher execution in decision making, or both?

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04-02-2013, 10:08 AM
  #182
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Possible new rink in Plymouth

http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/New-...#axzz2PJ8poJyZ

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04-02-2013, 02:21 PM
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Who's meant to run the rink? Not them Planet Ice people right?

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04-02-2013, 02:34 PM
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Who's meant to run the rink? Not them Planet Ice people right?
Hopefully not, looks like it will be privately owned by the football club or whoever owns their stadium

A hilarious part of the article is where he says "the best ice facility of its kind within 150 miles" because there isn't another within 150 miles

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04-02-2013, 04:12 PM
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Hopefully not, looks like it will be privately owned by the football club or whoever owns their stadium

A hilarious part of the article is where he says "the best ice facility of its kind within 150 miles" because there isn't another within 150 miles
roflmao.

So it says the rink will seat 1500, is that a rink big enough for EIHL/EPIHL?

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04-02-2013, 04:21 PM
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roflmao.

So it says the rink will seat 1500, is that a rink big enough for EIHL/EPIHL?
Yes it's definitely big enough, plus there will probably be room for standing tickets depending on the layout

Which league they choose will depend on how they want to run as a business, with a rink of that size they probably aren't going to get large enough attendance revenue to be competing for trophies in the EIHL, but could be a top team in the EPL.

and while we're on the subject of rinks here's a thing about the new facility in Romford http://www.havering.gov.uk/pages/cam...re-centre.aspx


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04-02-2013, 04:54 PM
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So fancy lol

They just need some basic rinks, 4 dressing rooms, 2 benches, 2 penalty boxes, 1 clock, 1 zamboni, 9 gates, some seats, boards/glass, and ice

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04-02-2013, 04:58 PM
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So fancy lol

They just need some basic rinks, 4 dressing rooms, 2 benches, 2 penalty boxes, 1 clock, 1 zamboni, 9 gates, some seats, boards/glass, and ice
4 dressing rooms is pushing it some here don't even have 3

A typical rink here has one that belongs to the pro team, plus a home and away dressing room for the juniors or other teams. Plus an officials dressing room which is often shared with the figure skating instructors, except in Oxford, the officials' dressing room is a disabled toilet

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04-02-2013, 05:13 PM
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4 dressing rooms is pushing it some here don't even have 3

A typical rink here has one that belongs to the pro team, plus a home and away dressing room for the juniors or other teams. Plus an officials dressing room which is often shared with the figure skating instructors, except in Oxford, the officials' dressing room is a disabled toilet
Officials dressing rooms are just starting to figure into plans for rinks here. I remember when I started reffing there were 3 or 4 rinks around here that put chairs in closets haha my favorite one was an old office with shag carpet. It was always so warm unlike every other room in any rink ever but some idiot complained it had no bathroom and we lost it. Even the rink that was home to the local major junior team only gave us the kitchen from one of their banquet halls downstairs the major junior refs get an entire dressing room to themselves during QMJHL games though.

But 4 should be the minimum. New rinks here are making it 5-6 now. Two are usually used for the two teams on the ice and two for the teams playing after. If the rink is home to higher end teams, they get a room and 4 dressing rooms for when other teams are around.

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04-02-2013, 05:24 PM
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Officials dressing rooms are just starting to figure into plans for rinks here. I remember when I started reffing there were 3 or 4 rinks around here that put chairs in closets haha my favorite one was an old office with shag carpet. It was always so warm unlike every other room in any rink ever but some idiot complained it had no bathroom and we lost it. Even the rink that was home to the local major junior team only gave us the kitchen from one of their banquet halls downstairs the major junior refs get an entire dressing room to themselves during QMJHL games though.

But 4 should be the minimum. New rinks here are making it 5-6 now. Two are usually used for the two teams on the ice and two for the teams playing after. If the rink is home to higher end teams, they get a room and 4 dressing rooms for when other teams are around.
What usually happens in Basingstoke is a junior game is going on before our game, they pile all their bags in the corner before we arrive at the rink and we get dressed and we are on for warmup straight after their game, so they get undressed while we are out on the ice warming up, then they're usually out by the end of our warmup so we can go back in while the ice is being cut. It's not ideal but it works.

Refs rooms definitely vary from rink to rink the one in Slough isn't even the size of my bathroom and the aforementioned Oxford one which is a bathroom while in Bracknell for EPL games we usually occupy the away juniors dressing room because it's bigger than our normal one obviously.

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04-02-2013, 05:32 PM
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What usually happens in Basingstoke is a junior game is going on before our game, they pile all their bags in the corner before we arrive at the rink and we get dressed and we are on for warmup straight after their game, so they get undressed while we are out on the ice warming up, then they're usually out by the end of our warmup so we can go back in while the ice is being cut. It's not ideal but it works.

Refs rooms definitely vary from rink to rink the one in Slough isn't even the size of my bathroom and the aforementioned Oxford one which is a bathroom while in Bracknell for EPL games we usually occupy the away juniors dressing room.
That's some third world shiiiit

I've played in rinks with no gates at the penalty boxes & only 1 on each bench, you had to walk down 5 stairs or so into this addition to go to the dressing rooms lol ice had lines painted on it for curling as well which was new to me at the time

I also remember a rink, I believe it was in Baddeck, Nova Scotia (Home of Alexander Graham Bell) and the dressing rooms were upstairs, outside the dressing rooms was the seating area which was all upstairs in a pressbox like thing, you go out of the room and walk down 25-30 stairs or so to the ice bahahaha easily the most unusual rink I ever played in

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04-02-2013, 06:06 PM
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That's some third world shiiiit

I've played in rinks with no gates at the penalty boxes & only 1 on each bench, you had to walk down 5 stairs or so into this addition to go to the dressing rooms lol ice had lines painted on it for curling as well which was new to me at the time

I also remember a rink, I believe it was in Baddeck, Nova Scotia (Home of Alexander Graham Bell) and the dressing rooms were upstairs, outside the dressing rooms was the seating area which was all upstairs in a pressbox like thing, you go out of the room and walk down 25-30 stairs or so to the ice bahahaha easily the most unusual rink I ever played in
The Solihull rink has only 1 gate, and the timekeepers put their table in the way of it the boards were really high as well so the little under 12s had to be lifted off the ice onto the bench by the coach and manager I was in hysterics when I lined there.

In the old Bristol rink the home dressing room and officials dressing room were upstairs too are curling markings those red white and blue circles? They have those in the Dundee rink.

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04-02-2013, 06:53 PM
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The Solihull rink has only 1 gate, and the timekeepers put their table in the way of it the boards were really high as well so the little under 12s had to be lifted off the ice onto the bench by the coach and manager I was in hysterics when I lined there.

In the old Bristol rink the home dressing room and officials dressing room were upstairs too are curling markings those red white and blue circles? They have those in the Dundee rink.
ye they are lol

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04-03-2013, 06:56 AM
  #194
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You guys had dressing rooms?
When I was a kid on the old outdoor rink in my village that I grew up in you dressed at home and walked or in Dad's car if he wasn't at work. Yes it was up hill both ways
But I remember the old rink in Ste-Marie-de-Kent NB (long replaced by one in near by Cocagne) that had so many holes in the roof that when it rained it rained harder inside than out.
Bur nothing like the old rinks with wood roofs........some like the one in Hartland NB where when it's really cold the frost that forms on the ceiling breaks off and falls to the ice surface in chunks.
When I hear folk complain about the Red Ball Internet Centre with heat, restaurant, coffee kiosk. pro shop 4 dressing rooms. refs dressing eooms on each ice surface........

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04-03-2013, 07:07 AM
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You guys had dressing rooms?
When I was a kid on the old outdoor rink in my village that I grew up in you dressed at home and walked or in Dad's car if he wasn't at work. Yes it was up hill both ways
But I remember the old rink in Ste-Marie-de-Kent NB (long replaced by one in near by Cocagne) that had so many holes in the roof that when it rained it rained harder inside than out.
Bur nothing like the old rinks with wood roofs........some like the one in Hartland NB where when it's really cold the frost that forms on the ceiling breaks off and falls to the ice surface in chunks.
When I hear folk complain about the Red Ball Internet Centre with heat, restaurant, coffee kiosk. pro shop 4 dressing rooms. refs dressing eooms on each ice surface........
lol I played my minor hockey in the late 90s early 00s and we had a rink that "had so many holes in the roof that when it rained it rained harder inside than out" the Zamboni was a tractor until 2007. I can't count how many twisted ankles I suffered from leaks that hit the ice in 1 spot and created holes in the ice

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04-03-2013, 07:53 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Adam Tilander View Post
lol I played my minor hockey in the late 90s early 00s and we had a rink that "had so many holes in the roof that when it rained it rained harder inside than out" the Zamboni was a tractor until 2007. I can't count how many twisted ankles I suffered from leaks that hit the ice in 1 spot and created holes in the ice
Ah the tractor with the plywood box trailer housing and auger and a strip of wet cloth to flood.
The old Dartmouth NS Memorial in the 70's didn't have even a tractor. Kids with ice scrapers and the guys pulling water tanks with cloths behind........rhen there are the rinks where in the middle of winter where you go outside to warm-iup
F*k I'm old
We return you to regularly scheduled Brit hockey now


Last edited by Alpine: 04-03-2013 at 08:13 AM.
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Old
04-12-2013, 09:07 AM
  #197
Propane Nightmares
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rumours, just rumours, circulating that there might be a new pro team in London

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04-12-2013, 09:38 AM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
rumours, just rumours, circulating that there might be a new pro team in London
For one of the Brit Leagues or is it that KHL expansion rumors again?

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04-12-2013, 10:37 AM
  #199
Propane Nightmares
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I think for EIHL

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04-12-2013, 11:57 AM
  #200
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
I think for EIHL
Now I remember you saying before that there aren't many rinks in London, would they be playing out of O2 Arena or is there something closer to a typical EIHL rink there as well around?

Playing in O2 would look awful if they weren't selling tickets

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