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Old
03-06-2013, 10:18 AM
  #26
Tuomaz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
+1 to Coyle not being a factor on that line
+1 to potentially splitting them up

I'm just not seeing a hell of a lot out of Koivu for a lot of shifts. He looks tired and slow and refuses to shoot. Deferring too much to Parise maybe?
Many times they get stuck on their own zone for a long time and have no gas left to create offensive pressure imo. Also the structure is too predictable. Parise and Koivu both are hard working two-way players, not too creative per se and Coyle is basically too raw and lighter version of them. Putting Granlund there should bring some creativity and even some scoring touch.

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Old
03-06-2013, 11:02 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by countrygentleman View Post
Koivu is the problem. He's never gelled well with elite-ish talent. The naysayers can naysay all they want, but Gabby, Havlat, Heatley, and Parise prove a very clear point. Koivu's intangibles earn him a lot of credit but when it comes down to producing like a first line centre, he simply doesn't hit the mark. It's remarkable how much free reign he gets for being intense and curt, but at the end of the day, I personally think his tangibles speak way louder than his intangibles
This is precisely what I heard on KFAN about 30 minutes ago about Koivu.

Parise is working too damn hard for everything he gets.

Coyle needs off of that line, big time.

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03-06-2013, 11:07 AM
  #28
Randy BoBandy
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Originally Posted by tomgilbertfan View Post
Lol wut?
Koivu had 67 pts his first year as captain, 71 the year after, 62 the next, and 44 in 55 games last year.
Is that supposed to be impressive? First line centers put up a hell of a lot more points than that. Koivu has no speed or dynamic playmaking ability. I'm all for trading him and getting a young prospect center. Pushes the time frame back a bit, but with Koivu as our number one we ain't going to be winning anything.

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03-06-2013, 11:15 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy BoBandy View Post
Is that supposed to be impressive? First line centers put up a hell of a lot more points than that. Koivu has no speed or dynamic playmaking ability. I'm all for trading him and getting a young prospect center. Pushes the time frame back a bit, but with Koivu as our number one we ain't going to be winning anything.
The country guy claimed he had never broken 50 pts.

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03-06-2013, 11:22 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Sportserie View Post
This is precisely what I heard on KFAN about 30 minutes ago about Koivu.

Parise is working too damn hard for everything he gets.

Coyle needs off of that line, big time.
Considering his paycheck, Parise is not working hard enough. As much as anyone tries to deflect the issue to others, he is a disappointment. A total non-factor most games.

Also, Paul Allen & LaVelle Neal, both brilliant hockey minds. Doesn't do much for your credibility if you are referencing them.

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03-06-2013, 11:24 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy BoBandy View Post
Is that supposed to be impressive? First line centers put up a hell of a lot more points than that. Koivu has no speed or dynamic playmaking ability. I'm all for trading him and getting a young prospect center. Pushes the time frame back a bit, but with Koivu as our number one we ain't going to be winning anything.
"But, but... what about his intangibles? Plus, Koivu has been here through a lot and no good will come from hurting the feelings of a player with such tenure and distinction."

Please. I agree, move Koivu or at least have the balls to demote him to second/third line. His credentials should not justify first line and captain just because. It's time Koivu starts proving he belongs the 'C' of this team or move along. I'm leaning more towards the later.

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03-06-2013, 11:25 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THEALLKNOWING View Post
Considering his paycheck, Parise is not working hard enough. As much as anyone tries to deflect the issue to others, he is a disappointment. A total non-factor most games.

Also, Paul Allen & LaVelle Neal, both brilliant hockey minds. Doesn't do much for your credibility if you are referencing them.
Not working hard enough? He's always flying around. He get's the puck away from the defender more times then not. Chips/pushes to Kaptin or Coyle and they lose it. not his issue.

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03-06-2013, 11:26 AM
  #33
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So I decided to go down the list and look at every team and their 1st line center...

1st line centers I'd much rather have over Koivu:
Getzlaf
Bergeron
Staal
Toews
Duchene
Benn
Zetterberg
Kopitar
Richards
Tavares
Spezza
Giroux
Crosby
Stamkos
Thornton
Sedin
Backstrom
17 total

I would rather have Koivu instead of:
Hodgson-maybe soon, he has potential to overtake Koivu
Stajan
Anisimov
RNH-maybe soon also, too young to say but definate potential to pass up Koivu
Weiss
Desharnais-small but dynamic and proving it every game, so maybe soon
Fisher
Vermette
Zajac
Backes-very close to going the other way and taking Backes, but whatever I'll give Koivu one
Bozak
Little
12 total

There aren't many 1st line centers that I easily take Koivu over. Probably really closer to 9 centers that I would take Koivu over because of young ones potential and where they are already in their game. We clearly need a high impact draft pick to take his spot, but those are hard as **** to come by. Just pray people pray that this is the year it happens. Or we could trade Koivu and load up on draft picks and more stud prospects who have a chance be the franchise center. Either way something needs to be done about this and sitting around hoping for it to happen isn't working.


Last edited by Randy BoBandy: 03-06-2013 at 11:33 AM.
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Old
03-06-2013, 11:30 AM
  #34
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Koivu is about the same player as Bergeron, Staal and Zetterberg. Debatable about Duchene, Benn, Richards, and Backstrom.

RNH maybe soon?

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03-06-2013, 11:32 AM
  #35
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We should find a way to pry Duchene out of Colorado. He has the speed, skill, and creativity that we desperately need on that first line to go with Parise.

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Old
03-06-2013, 11:34 AM
  #36
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He's who they're building around. Their team might still be bad, but he's the core.

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Old
03-06-2013, 11:36 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee Oh Cee View Post
Koivu is about the same player as Bergeron, Staal and Zetterberg. Debatable about Duchene, Benn, Richards, and Backstrom.

RNH maybe soon?
Have you ever seen those three play. That is a laughable statement. Zetterberg is ****ing awesome in all three zones and is much much better than Koivu. So is Bergeron as a Selke winner. Staal is way better than Koivu as well just watch what Staal can do to a game. He can take it over, Koivu cannot. Don't even mention that stupid Kronwall hit, Koivu beastmode doesn't exist. I've seen it enough times that I can count it on one hand, not impressed.

As for the debatables Duchene and Benn are just as good if not ok little less than Koivu now but given their youth and potential I would easily take those two. Backstrom has dynamic playmaking ability. Koivu doesn't. I will give you that Richards one though, I was close to putting him on the other side but if you watch him play I like his style of play much more than Koivu's.

And you laugh at the RNH thing? Wait a couple years bud and see whos playing at a high level. I value high end skill and potential over age and proven Koivu who hasn't done ****. In two years Koivu will be a second liner in everyone's eyes not just mine and RNH will be a budding star.


Last edited by Randy BoBandy: 03-06-2013 at 11:44 AM.
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Old
03-06-2013, 11:40 AM
  #38
Sportserie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THEALLKNOWING View Post
Considering his paycheck, Parise is not working hard enough. As much as anyone tries to deflect the issue to others, he is a disappointment. A total non-factor most games.

Also, Paul Allen & LaVelle Neal, both brilliant hockey minds. Doesn't do much for your credibility if you are referencing them.
Disagree with Parise not working hard enough (disagree so strongly) and I can't remember his name but he knows hockey and it was his words. Allen is gone today and I didn't mean Neal either. It was the third guy who was talking about this that I agreed with.


Last edited by Sportserie: 03-06-2013 at 11:45 AM.
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Old
03-06-2013, 11:41 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy BoBandy View Post
Is that supposed to be impressive? First line centers put up a hell of a lot more points than that. Koivu has no speed or dynamic playmaking ability. I'm all for trading him and getting a young prospect center. Pushes the time frame back a bit, but with Koivu as our number one we ain't going to be winning anything.
I agree that ideally Koivu would be 2nd line center but that means Wild is a contender(likely). Lets use this latest poll for centers as reference:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...ht=top+centers

Koivu has been voted as 16th best center. And according you he is not number one center. So there is only 15 number 1 centers MAX. So 13 teams with number 1 center (dats,Z and crosby,malkin on the same team) so its seems rare luxury to have. And when you look at the team who have this elite center almost every team also has very good 2nd line center something what Wild has lacked ever since Koivu became number 1 center. It's much easier for opponent to focus shutdown that one line.

Look how many teams are desperately wanting that 1st line center (toronto,edmonton,devils,montreal,calgary,buffalo, colorado,columbus,predators,winnipeg,phoenix,flori da) do you have no idea how much money they would throw to get player of Koivu's caliber? Big two-way center with intangibles and 0.85 ppg over last 5 seasons? We are hoping that Granlund will become that other center so we have 1a/1b punch. Oh and did I mention that he is the bonafide captain of this team and once again the point leader even with the addition of Parise.

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Old
03-06-2013, 11:42 AM
  #40
Sportserie
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Originally Posted by Mumbler View Post
Not working hard enough? He's always flying around. He get's the puck away from the defender more times then not. Chips/pushes to Kaptin or Coyle and they lose it. not his issue.
Thank you. 100% agreed.

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Old
03-06-2013, 11:53 AM
  #41
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I get it okay, my thinking on this issue constantly goes through these phases

We need a 1st line center....

How to get one?

Draft one...well that is going to take forever so..

Hmm lets trade Koivu and see what kind of prospects/picks we could get

Can't trade Koivu, cus we have no one else

have no one else so want to trade Koivu to get someone else

realize trading Koivu doesn't automatically give us one

hope we somehow draft one

But we need more high picks

So trade somebody....

So basically the draft is the only way we will ever get that 1st line center we need. We do have other assets that could net us more picks without losing Koivu. I'm all for that

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03-06-2013, 11:59 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy BoBandy View Post
I get it okay, my thinking on this issue constantly goes through these phases

We need a 1st line center....

How to get one?

Draft one...well that is going to take forever so..

Hmm lets trade Koivu and see what kind of prospects/picks we could get

Can't trade Koivu, cus we have no one else

have no one else so want to trade Koivu to get someone else

realize trading Koivu doesn't automatically give us one

hope we somehow draft one

So basically the draft is the only way we will ever get that 1st line center we need.

That's how it basically is in cap-hit era.

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03-06-2013, 12:04 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy BoBandy View Post
I get it okay, my thinking on this issue constantly goes through these phases

We need a 1st line center....

How to get one?

Draft one...well that is going to take forever so..

Hmm lets trade Koivu and see what kind of prospects/picks we could get

Can't trade Koivu, cus we have no one else

have no one else so want to trade Koivu to get someone else

realize trading Koivu doesn't automatically give us one

hope we somehow draft one

But we need more high picks

So trade somebody....

So basically the draft is the only way we will ever get that 1st line center we need. We do have other assets that could net us more picks without losing Koivu. I'm all for that
That's exactly how it is. This team won't have both Koivu AND an elite 1st line C at the same time unless the elite C is a prospect we draft ourselves. Even if we don't make the playoffs this season, we still won't get our hands on the best C prospects (unless we win the lottery) because we don't suck enough. You can't have everything. You want Koivu to be 2nd line C? Well, so would every other team in this league aside from PIT and DET and some of those teams would jump a the chance to put him on their 1st line.

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03-06-2013, 12:21 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by countrygentleman View Post
Koivu is the problem. He's never gelled well with elite-ish talent. The naysayers can naysay all they want, but Gabby, Havlat, Heatley, and Parise prove a very clear point. Koivu's intangibles earn him a lot of credit but when it comes down to producing like a first line centre, he simply doesn't hit the mark. It's remarkable how much free reign he gets for being intense and curt, but at the end of the day, I personally think his tangibles speak way louder than his intangibles
Despite all the facts and statistics you have been shown proving he is a good mid-range top c, you still maintain this biased opinion

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03-06-2013, 12:23 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by SwimToTheMoon View Post
Try Parise with Granlund.

If that second line ever cools off, move Zucker to the first line.
I don't see why anyone would want to break up that 2nd line with the way they've been playing. I wouldn't be against giving Granlund a shot with the top line to see what happens, though.

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03-06-2013, 12:41 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by hirawl View Post
Parise -Koivu-Granlund
Zucker-Cullen- Seto
Heatley-Brodziak-Coyle
Rupp-Konopka-Mitchell

Let's go win hockey games.
You gotta be kidding me.

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Old
03-06-2013, 12:49 PM
  #47
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If there was ever a time to trade Koivu, it was the summer of 2010. He had one year left on his deal and it was before we traded for Heatley and before we signed Parise and Suter. Koivu dealt, Burns dealt and Havlat probably dealt for something other than Heatley. It puts us in full rebuild mode along the same lines as Edmonton and Columbus and wouldn't allow us to even think about the playoffs until probably a year or two from now.

You don't trade him now, with the team constructed as it is.

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03-06-2013, 12:50 PM
  #48
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I'd like for one person to tell me how the team is better without Koivu.

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03-06-2013, 12:51 PM
  #49
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I'd like for one person to tell me how the team is better without Koivu.
Prospects!!!

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Old
03-06-2013, 12:54 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
I'd like for one person to tell me how the team is better without Koivu.
I'd like to know how humiliating Koivu and putting Parise in an unenviable position will cure all our problems.

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