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NYT: Bargaining for Rights in Exchange for NHL in Olympics (UPD: Daly in Sochi)

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Old
03-06-2013, 11:28 AM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
As has been demonstrated before, NHL values NA tv audiences more than anything so games played in Europe are no go to them. To sum it up, the time when Europeans would jump at joy to play in an NHL hosted/organized tournament, is gone.
This is an assumption by you, repeating it doesn't make it true. The NHL already has regular season games in Europe, why do you assume they limit WC games to NA?

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03-06-2013, 11:39 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
Let 's put it this way, the excitement doesn't show in bars but on the internet. And that goes for every major sport these days. The biggest Finnish hockey site/messageboard Jatkoaika.com has nightly GDTs for NHL and I've never seen more posts and posters there than this season. The chat window on HDPlayer is also very lively with plenty of people commenting on the games they are watching for free.
We're the world's largest hockey message board, and no one else is very close. We had a massive and sustained rebound after the lockout ended. We've grown in double digits (sustained traffic) as compared to 2012. Maybe there's something to shortening the season.



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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
TBF, can that even be measured? Like, is it worth more to pocket a few millions and have 2 million Americans watch a bad World Cup, or have 20 million watch an Olympics.

All I can say is that hanging out on casual message boards where poeple start game threads, no one started World Cup of Hockey threads except hardcores, but that casuals watch the Olympics and start asking questions about hockey after.

Just from a competition, open, and fair tournament, the World Cup is bad.....which is all I care about as a fan. I personally didn't watch the 04 World Cup for that reason.
I think it can be measured with sophisticated market research. You establish how newer fans 'came' to the sport. Right now, I think the exposure from the Winter Classic does more for the league than the Olympics. I know this is anecdotal as I haven't seen a study other than what Bettman commented on 4yrs ago, but most new fans say they adopted the sport when their city got a team, and/or a friend took them to a live game. I can't think of anyone who went to a live game wasn't left craving for more. The biggest issue the NHL has always had, it seems to me anyway, is that hockey doesn't translate very well to TV. The advent of HD is supposed to help that along.

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03-06-2013, 12:00 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
What ever gives you that idea? They's play in the Olympics, because it's The Olympics but the World Cup doesn't not enjoy such appreciation among the players who'd most likely spend the time vacationing still. Also, it's not about "following the lead" but rather "well if they're not going, why should we?/hey, we want the same money they do".
This will be done with the NHL and NHLPA with the $ to benefit both parties. If guys like Ovechkin and Malkin do not want to play for Russia in this type of event, that is their choice. Just like Roenick didn't play for the US in 96 as he didn't have a contract at the time and didnt want to risk injury. However, the threat of Europeans boycotting a World Cup is not going to force the NHL to agree to send their players to the Olympics. If a guy like Leonsis wants to allow his players to go, that is their business, but I assure you if Ovechkin gets hurt the league is not going to have sympathy for the Caps.

Secondly, if the NHL doesn't agree to send and then a few teams allow their players to go, it is not going to be deemed a legit tourney in the eyes of most fans. Just like the World Championship.

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03-06-2013, 12:03 PM
  #154
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So, all the European countries are going to just follow Russia's lead? Didn't realize this was 1973. It is not as if the rest of the countries have followed Russia's lead in reagards to dealing with their NHL draftees and transfer agreements. Russian NHLers will play, regardless of whether their federation or the IIHF is involved. Russia would only boycott because they know the only tourney they can win is when they are able to use their best players while the US and Canada is using mostly players from the C and D squad, like was the case in last year's World Championships.
Hard to say really... I guess I could see a situation where European hockey federations, after being denied access to many/most of their best players for an Olympics played in Europe, might not be to interested in being involved in a NHL sanctioned World Cup primarily held for the benefit of hockey fans in NA and the NHL's bottom line. I guess the entire thing could descend into a bit of chaos.

Anyway…

Like I said earlier if every 4 years participation is going to turn into an issue where the NHL tries to get as much as it can and the IOC tries to hold on as much as it can (both to a degree having understandable positions), things like NA viewing convenience is going to have a major influence, and nobody knows if they are showing up until well inside a year of the actually tournament than just kill the entire thing now. I got to think it is hard to build any momentum from the event if the first thing people ask once it is over is "so our you guys going to be showing up in 4 years?".

I get that the NHL’s wealth and prestige gives it a huge amount of leverage and influence, making it, whether it cares or even realizes it or not, a de facto world governing body of the sport. That can turn into a problem when the league (totally understandably) is always going to do what is best for the league and not necessarily what is best for the sport as a whole.

I would think when the NHL uses the term "grow the game" what they really mean is "make the NHL as popular in the US as possible". Given the size and wealth of the market that is hardly a bad idea or a bad thing for hockey overall. To be honest though I think by being so resistant to ‘integrating’ more into international hockey they are missing opportunities to "grow the game" in the US. Hockey can offer the US something that most other team sports, with any meaningful profile, can't... Relatively competitive and interesting international competition (unlike football) the US usually has a realistic chance of winning (unlike soccer) but isn't the overwhelming favourite to the point where it would be bigger news if they don't win (unlike basketball).

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03-06-2013, 12:07 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
This will be done with the NHL and NHLPA with the $ to benefit both parties. If guys like Ovechkin and Malkin do not want to play for Russia in this type of event, that is their choice. Just like Roenick didn't play for the US in 96 as he didn't have a contract at the time and didnt want to risk injury. However, the threat of Europeans boycotting a World Cup is not going to force the NHL to agree to send their players to the Olympics. If a guy like Leonsis wants to allow his players to go, that is their business, but I assure you if Ovechkin gets hurt the league is not going to have sympathy for the Caps.

Secondly, if the NHL doesn't agree to send and then a few teams allow their players to go, it is not going to be deemed a legit tourney in the eyes of most fans. Just like the World Championship.

For all we know, the commissioner may force clubs to suspend players during their time away--- and this may in fact be legally/contractually necessary. That means they wouldn't be getting paid nor covered by the league's insurance policy for subsequent problems.

To illustrate, let's say the league does not shut down but a portion of players choose to go to the Olympics. The NHL team has to call up reserve players in order to ice a full team. This is a cap implication. Suspending the player for the duration of the absence means that teams wouldn't be carrying that player's cost and the cost of the replacement. You can't see players wanting it otherwise either, since their share is fixed as percentage of total HRR.

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03-06-2013, 12:10 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by CoolForumNamePending View Post
<snip>

I would think when the NHL uses the term "grow the game" what they really mean is "make the NHL as popular in the US as possible". Given the size and wealth of the market that is hardly a bad idea or a bad thing for hockey overall. To be honest though I think by being so resistant to ‘integrating’ more into international hockey they are missing opportunities to "grow the game" in the US. Hockey can offer the US something that most other team sports, with any meaningful profile, can't... Relatively competitive and interesting international competition (unlike football) the US usually has a realistic chance of winning (unlike soccer) but isn't the overwhelming favourite to the point where it would be bigger news if they don't win (unlike basketball).

I would add that retaining a high level of interest in hockey in Europe serves a different need. Guaranteeing a sustained supply of hockey talent in as many countries as possible.

However, when it comes to paying for it all, the US/Canada market is the engine in the machine.

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03-06-2013, 12:17 PM
  #157
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I would add that retaining a high level of interest in hockey in Europe serves a different need. Guaranteeing a sustained supply of hockey talent in as many countries as possible.
...and a good way to help interest remain high and the supply of talent continue to flow is to make European players available to their national teams for tournaments played close(r) to home as often as possible.

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However, when it comes to paying for it all, the US/Canada market is the engine in the machine.
Sure... But that doesn't make 'European' hockey insignificant either. The WC for example are a cash cow with significant veiwership regardless of NA interest in it.


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03-06-2013, 12:20 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by CoolForumNamePending View Post
...and a good way to help interest remain high and the supply of talent continue to flow is to make European players available to their national teams for tournaments played close(r) to home as often as possible.

I certainly can agree on that point.

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03-06-2013, 01:06 PM
  #159
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“FIFA is quick to point out that its profits from the World Cup go towards funding its many other activities over the four-year cycle between World Cups, including less lucrative competitions such as junior and women's World Cups and the quadrennial Confederations Cup between continental national teams champions.”

These tournaments tend to make losses, which are only covered by the profits from FIFA’s premier competition. For example, in 2009 alone, FIFA incurred significant expenses for the Confederations Cup in South Africa ($44 million), the U-17 World Cup in Nigeria ($43 million), the Club World Cup in UAE ($30 million) and the U-20 World Cup in Egypt ($21 million).

Not to mention $30 million for women’s competitions the year before.

If we take a look at FIFA’s complete profit and loss account, this is easier to understand. The budget for the four-year cycle leading up to this year has the $3.2 billion revenue from the 2010 World Cup, but the overall profit is only $0.2 billion after deducting costs for all events, football development and operational expenses."



That is how the World Cup needs to be handled in hockey. Not a sham NHL show earning profit on the hopes of a true international hockey.

I for one hope the "KHL/whatever the Russian sport federation" holds up the World Cup of Hockey to force the NHL to share the profits for the true "growth of the game".

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03-06-2013, 01:26 PM
  #160
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What pull would the KHL seriously have? If the NHL and NHLPA decide they are going to hold a World Cup, how can the KHL prevent it? Very few of their players would make any of the big-7 (US, Canada, Russia, Czech, Slovakia, Sweden, Finland) teams. Yes, if the Russian Federation opposes, maybe they can't use the current Team Russia uniforms or crest.

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03-06-2013, 01:32 PM
  #161
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to be fair, Fugu, iirc you've come out in the past as being against any nationalistic sports competition, haven't you? So it would make sense that you'd prefer seeing two NHL teams play in Europe to the Olympics, no?

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03-06-2013, 01:41 PM
  #162
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to be fair, Fugu, iirc you've come out in the past as being against any nationalistic sports competition, haven't you? So it would make sense that you'd prefer seeing two NHL teams play in Europe to the Olympics, no?

Oh for sure. I hate the country vs country oriented competitions. It's so 1900s.

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03-06-2013, 02:00 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
What pull would the KHL seriously have? If the NHL and NHLPA decide they are going to hold a World Cup, how can the KHL prevent it? Very few of their players would make any of the big-7 (US, Canada, Russia, Czech, Slovakia, Sweden, Finland) teams. Yes, if the Russian Federation opposes, maybe they can't use the current Team Russia uniforms or crest.
I wrote KHL/Russian Hockey Federation. because the two go-in-hand sometimes on matters like these.

The NPB and Japan Baseball did a similar thing, this WBC wasn't announced till about 9 months ago because of their holdup concerning revenues from the tourney.

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03-06-2013, 02:15 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
What pull would the KHL seriously have? If the NHL and NHLPA decide they are going to hold a World Cup, how can the KHL prevent it? Very few of their players would make any of the big-7 (US, Canada, Russia, Czech, Slovakia, Sweden, Finland) teams. Yes, if the Russian Federation opposes, maybe they can't use the current Team Russia uniforms or crest.
Unless they are going to limit the tournament to Canada, US, Sweden & Czech Rep (and given the iffy history of the CC/WC they just might) you are going to see a fairly large number of non-NHLers playing in the tournament.

Did any of the profits earned from the last World Cup trickle down to the national federations of the 8 invited nations or did it all go to the righteous cause that was the NHL & NHLPA lockout war chests?

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03-06-2013, 02:18 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by CoolForumNamePending View Post
Unless they are going to limit the tournament to Canada, US, Sweden & Czech Rep (and given the iffy history of the CC/WC they just might) you are going to see a fairly large number of non-NHLers playing in the tournament.

Did any of the profits earned from the last World Cup trickle down to the national federations of the 8 invited nations or did it all go to the righteous cause that was the NHL & NHLPA lockout war chests?
No idea where the profit went. The only team that might need non-NHLers is Slovakia, but I could be wrong on that. The rest could easily fill their team with NHLers. If something is done and Russia wants to be dumb enough to fill their team with KHL'ers that is their perogative, but they will get destroyed.

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03-06-2013, 02:24 PM
  #166
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No idea where the profit went. The only team that might need non-NHLers is Slovakia, but I could be wrong on that. The rest could easily fill their team with NHLers.
I am confused, are you purposing that if possible to do so, a team must be made up totally of NHL players? The only two nations that have used nothing but NHL players in at least the past 2 Olympics are Canada and the US.

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03-06-2013, 02:30 PM
  #167
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I am confused, are you purposing that if possible to do so, a team must be made up totally of NHL players? The only two nations that have used nothing but NHL players in at least the past 2 Olympics are Canada and the US.
No. Not saying must be all NHLers, but for the most part each country's best team would be made of NHLers. Not sure if Slovakia has enough NHLers to form a team as I haven't looked at those numbers in a while. I know sometimes the goalies or back-up goalies of some of the European countries are from other leagues. Jagr playing in the KHL and on the last Czech team is a different story. Jagr was not in the KHL because he couldn't hack it in the NHL. He was there for whatever reason, most likely that team offered him the most money.

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03-06-2013, 02:32 PM
  #168
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I have to side with the NHL on this one. I can't come up with any scenario that is so threatening to the IOC that they couldn't allow the league to show highlights on their website, channel or in arenas. The owners shut down business while the IOC reaps the reward of having so many high profile players contribute to the Olympics. The compensation they're asking for seems like very little relative to what they give up to allow their players to attend.

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03-06-2013, 02:49 PM
  #169
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No. Not saying must be all NHLers, but for the most part each country's best team would be made of NHLers. Not sure if Slovakia has enough NHLers to form a team as I haven't looked at those numbers in a while. I know sometimes the goalies or back-up goalies of some of the European countries are from other leagues. Jagr playing in the KHL and on the last Czech team is a different story. Jagr was not in the KHL because he couldn't hack it in the NHL. He was there for whatever reason, most likely that team offered him the most money.
Nearly half the '98 Czech Roster was European based players. The rosters of the two finalists in '06 had 12 European based players between them. As long as the KHL is around from here on out it is probably safe to say at least a third of the Russian roster is going to be from outside the NHL. My point is if you want to have a legit 'best vs best' tournament it is going to require the co-operations of more than just the NHL and NHLPA. You are going to need to have the national federations and pro leagues in Europe on board as well.

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03-06-2013, 04:42 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by CoolForumNamePending View Post
Nearly half the '98 Czech Roster was European based players. The rosters of the two finalists in '06 had 12 European based players between them. As long as the KHL is around from here on out it is probably safe to say at least a third of the Russian roster is going to be from outside the NHL. My point is if you want to have a legit 'best vs best' tournament it is going to require the co-operations of more than just the NHL and NHLPA. You are going to need to have the national federations and pro leagues in Europe on board as well.
But does it really matter? These silly little tournaments prove nothing. The teams are thrown together with little or no practise. And then one bad day and you're out of the medals. Seems pretty pointless to me. So, as long as you can boast enough big names in the tourney to make some bucks, does it really matter?

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03-06-2013, 05:49 PM
  #171
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But does it really matter? These silly little tournaments prove nothing. The teams are thrown together with little or no practise. And then one bad day and you're out of the medals. Seems pretty pointless to me. So, as long as you can boast enough big names in the tourney to make some bucks, does it really matter?
Well ya... In the grand scheme of things sports are pretty pointless and don't matter.

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03-06-2013, 05:56 PM
  #172
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Maybe there's something to shortening the season.
100% on the money. The most popular sports league in the US only plays 16 games per season. Even the baseball season, with its 162 games, is over a month shorter than the NHL season.

The NHL has the longest season out of any major pro sport in North America. They needs to shorten the damn season already.

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03-06-2013, 08:14 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by rojac View Post
But does it really matter? These silly little tournaments prove nothing. The teams are thrown together with little or no practise. And then one bad day and you're out of the medals. Seems pretty pointless to me. So, as long as you can boast enough big names in the tourney to make some bucks, does it really matter?
Once we start down this trail, it's not long before we're rationalizing all sports out of existence. I mean, what's the point of hockey anyway? To paraphrase Mitchell & Webb, it will never be conclusively decided who's won, so why bother?

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03-06-2013, 10:43 PM
  #174
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I already explained in the now closed thread and other European poster have expressed similar views. Simple case of level playing field, games played only in NA is a big nono. If you've paid any attention to what not only the Russian posters her but what their hockey bosses have been saying, their egos are "a bit" high right now mostly due to the KHL. Which means expecting Russia to take part in a tournament with a clear NA advantage, is not going to happen. With Russia saying no, other European federations would follow. Someone suggested that each federation would be paid for participation. Even if the organizers paid for the players insurance (doubtful, considering how high they already are), it would take at least a high 7 figure sum, probably even an 8 figure sum to get Russia even get their ***** off the couch. Once again, other federations would demand equal money which would make the tournament making any kind of profit impossible. As has been demonstrated before, NHL values NA tv audiences more than anything so games played in Europe are no go to them. To sum it up, the time when Europeans would jump at joy to play in an NHL hosted/organized tournament, is gone.
Yah, because there is already a tournament only held in one continent and it's called the World Championships. I find it is hilarious that when the tables are turned you say that Canada and the US should never and would never drop out of the World Championships. You have pretty much contradicted everything you said here in other threads when the situation was reversed.

International play is much bigger to Europeans than North Americans and if Canada and the US still send a team to Europe every year for the WC I'm sure the European teams would join in an NA organized tournament as well.

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03-06-2013, 10:58 PM
  #175
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I think it can be measured with sophisticated market research. You establish how newer fans 'came' to the sport. Right now, I think the exposure from the Winter Classic does more for the league than the Olympics. I know this is anecdotal as I haven't seen a study other than what Bettman commented on 4yrs ago, but most new fans say they adopted the sport when their city got a team, and/or a friend took them to a live game. I can't think of anyone who went to a live game wasn't left craving for more. The biggest issue the NHL has always had, it seems to me anyway, is that hockey doesn't translate very well to TV. The advent of HD is supposed to help that along.

I am positive that the day in and day out exposure that a league provides does WAY more to help grow interest in the game than the Olympics ever will. Yes the gold medal game gets big TV ratings but it is one game every four years. Most sports at the Olympics are otherwise forgotten in the 4 years between the games. Also look at the Superbowl. It gives American Football a huge amount of exposure around the world every year and it has done pretty much nothing to grow the game outside of North America, and the infrastructure needed to play it (ie soccer fields) already exists pretty much every where.

I'm glad you are asking these questions because I am so sick and tired of people claiming that essentially the very survival of the game of hockey depends on having NHLers at the Olympics. The game grew and flourished just fine without having NHLers in the Olympics and it will be just fine if they stop going or change over to some other tournament.

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