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Old
03-06-2013, 04:36 PM
  #51
EchoesoftheEighties
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Good to see Nash is turning into a decent player for you guys. We're happy with Marincin as a prospect and Nash didn't want to play here so it worked out for both teams

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03-06-2013, 04:43 PM
  #52
Boom Boom Anton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaxing Joni Jokel View Post
I invite anyone still raving about Bowman's potential to take a look at his AHL numbers.

They are significantly worse than Chad LaRose's at the same age.

Chad. LaRose.
Interestingly enough, Nash and Bowman have played in almost the exact number of AHL games.

Nash: 87 points in 187 games
Bowman: 110 points in 186 games


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03-06-2013, 04:47 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton View Post
Interestingly enough, Nash and Bowman have played in almost the exact number of AHL games.

Nash: 87 points in 187 games
Bowman: 110 points in 186 games

Except Nash actually has other abilities besides scoring, which Bowman does not despite people being super impressed with how tall he is and his ability to dump the puck in. Bowman is basically a scoring line player who can't score at the pro level who has managed to convince a bat**** retarded management that he's an NHLer because he works hard and listens to coaches.

Bowman is the most overrated prospect ever on this board....even more than Bobby Hughes and Harrison Reed. At least with those guys the hype died off after a couple years...it's now almost six years of this ****. Just let it go, everyone. Bowman sucks.

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03-06-2013, 04:55 PM
  #54
Boom Boom Anton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaxing Joni Jokel View Post
Except Nash actually has other abilities besides scoring, which Bowman does not despite people being super impressed with how tall he is and his ability to dump the puck in. Bowman is basically a scoring line player who can't score at the pro level who has managed to convince a bat**** retarded management that he's an NHLer because he works hard and listens to coaches.

Bowman is the most overrated prospect ever on this board....even more than Bobby Hughes and Harrison Reed. At least with those guys the hype died off after a couple years...it's now almost six years of this ****. Just let it go, everyone. Bowman sucks.
I was just doing what you said and checking out his stats in the AHL.

Seriously though, I also don't see much in Bowman at this point.

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03-06-2013, 04:56 PM
  #55
bleedgreen
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Originally Posted by wallym View Post
A sound defensive center with no other skills is not something to be excited about. Even as a 4th liner, he's not physical and hasn't killed penalties.

That bar is too low.
He's actually pretty physical. Gotta disagree with you. I don't think you're seeing him yet so ill not bother arguing.

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03-06-2013, 05:14 PM
  #56
FlyingSquirrels
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaxing Joni Jokel View Post
Except Nash actually has other abilities besides scoring, which Bowman does not despite people being super impressed with how tall he is and his ability to dump the puck in. Bowman is basically a scoring line player who can't score at the pro level who has managed to convince a bat**** retarded management that he's an NHLer because he works hard and listens to coaches.

Bowman is the most overrated prospect ever on this board....even more than Bobby Hughes and Harrison Reed. At least with those guys the hype died off after a couple years...it's now almost six years of this ****. Just let it go, everyone. Bowman sucks.
Six years? He is just into his 4th pro season. But you are right. Bowman sucks and will always suck because you say so and say it louder. 18 points in 90 games is a very large sample size. Especially with all the ice time he is given.

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03-06-2013, 05:18 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by wallym View Post
It's not like he's been knocking on the door and finally broke through. It's been practically nothing, followed by a great game, with more nothing on the way.
What I see is a 5-game adjustment period followed by four consecutive very good games. Forget points, watch the last game against Buffalo. He didn't score any points but he did everything you would want from your third-line center and a little bit more.

I also don't see much from Bowman that warrants anything more than 4th line minutes.

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03-06-2013, 05:24 PM
  #58
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He could go pointless for the next two months for all I care. If he can develop a responsible defensive game, that frees up J. Staal and Skinner against lesser competition.

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03-06-2013, 05:50 PM
  #59
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We have to stop falling in love with our spare parts. I think he's doing a decent job, emphasis decent, but if you're going to play in the Top 9 in the NHL you're going to need to be a bit more offensive than Nash is showing. Something that has been odd about him, even at the AHL level, is that he'll have a 3 or 4 point game and then go radio silent offensively for 6 or 7 games and it makes his numbers look balanced when in truth he mixed one strong game into a lot of weak ones offensively.

He's slightly built for playing a pure checking role and not "lengthy" in the way that Brandon was to make up for it with stick positioning. He's going to have to jump off the page either offensively or defensively to stay in the long term plans on what is traditionally a line that we expect sustained offensive pressure from.

I do have to say that his cycle game has been fantastic, but the same could have been said about the Aucoin-Bayda-Walker line but it didn't last because it was two fringe guys playing with one NHL player. Offensively, it's tough to decide who is helping more between Jokinen who has a history of being a scorer and Nash who does not. The chemistry in the early returns looks good, but Jokinen is no AHL talent. It could be a reverse Larose-Staal "chemistry". Jokinen could finally be getting some confidence and Nash is the beneficiary.

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03-06-2013, 06:57 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by bleedgreen View Post
He's actually pretty physical. Gotta disagree with you. I don't think you're seeing him yet so ill not bother arguing.
Physical was probably too broad of a term. I don't mean Aucoin/Bayda cycle and grind physical. I was speaking more of a physical presence. Nobody has to make sure to keep their head up because Riley Nash is on the ice, or get ready to do battle in front of the net, or be prepared to get controlled by a physically dominant possession guy like the Staal's.

I see him. And with what other posters are saying they want out of a 3rd line center, I am not surprised people are content. Personally, with Jordan Staal in the lineup, and Jussi Jokkinen playing on the 3rd line, I am imagining the possibility of something more offensively on the 3rd.

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03-06-2013, 07:08 PM
  #61
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What's wrong with Bowman being a 4th liner who can fill a 3rd line role if necessary? That's more than most low draft picks accomplish.

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03-06-2013, 07:39 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
What's wrong with Bowman being a 4th liner who can fill a 3rd line role if necessary? That's more than most low draft picks accomplish.
I think the problem is "What does he bring?" I think our best 4th liner combo ever was Kevyn and Craig Adams. Kevyn won faceoffs, took tough assignments, killed penalties. Craig hit everything that moved.

If you look at a 4th line of Westgarth/Brent/Wallace, there is no mystery. Fighter/Multipurpose/Hitter.

Bowman fills a roster spot. But wouldn't it be nice to do more with that roster spot? Either offensively, or defensively, or something else?

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03-06-2013, 11:34 PM
  #63
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That's the thing with Bowman, he can hit, he can score, he can play sound defensive hockey, but he hasn't been able to to any of that consistently on an nhl level yet. The potential is there, he had a game against Vancouver where he was the best player on the ice. But other games hes invisible. Or just takes a boarding penalty (but at least people notice getting hit by him, unlike Larose) In the end though I think why hes still on the roster. Ie can okay on a scoring line and not look completely lost, of he can okay 10 minutes on the fourth line and not be a liability.

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03-06-2013, 11:43 PM
  #64
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I am becoming increasingly tired of Westgarth thinking he's a hockey player and trying some of that fancy garbage he does. Dump, forecheck, fight. Anything else needs to start with your ass in the goaltender's face. Guy is out there dipsy doodling like he's Semin sometimes. You literally have one job.

Compared against Wallace, he makes Wallace look like Clark Gillies.

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03-07-2013, 01:42 AM
  #65
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I like bowman more than westgarth, but they're both wastes of space to me. That's why I've liked Nash. He is clearly a center, and one who can play the defensive side of the position. He's blending well with his linemates. All the ahl guys and the bottom six guys are a hodge podge mess. Nash is the first one where I can clearly see a position and what he'll do with it. Maybe my expectations have been lowered too much but I'm happy about that. I think he'll fit in well with higher skilled guys, and that the offense may come with that.

Bowman is filler. That guy has been given a chance none if the others were given, and I'm not seeing the why. He isn't a good defensive player, he's ok. He hits as best he can because he knows it the only way he's staying, but he isn't good at that either. He isn't even close to scoring....

He's the opposite of Nash to me. Limited upside or not, Nash has a place. We need a solid center. Bowman is pure spare part. Westgarth is only valuable in that he got rid of meh stew. We don't sit around trying to find a role for him like we did with stew. Sit, and wait for us to need you to maybe but most likely not fight.

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03-07-2013, 01:55 AM
  #66
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I can see that argument for Nash, the fact that he's slotted appropriately for an NHL role, I just don't know if he can stick there long term. If he can develop into a guy we can count on for 35-40 points from the 3rd line, there will always be a role for him here. Natural centers are the hardest thing to find, not just guys that are put there.... but guys who really play their best driving the center lane. Even with Eric and Jordan there is a bit of uncertainty about if they'd be better offensive players on the wing full time, or would have been if they were developed at those positions.

Bowman has done something that none of our other prospects have done, which was have a stint of 20+ games where he looked like an NHL caliber player. When he was with Brandon and Tlusty last season and had 6 goals and 7 assists in 37 games with a +2 rating, he showed the organization that he could put together a good stretch of defensive hockey. That line was sneaky good last year. Now that he has seen a decrease in the quality of his linemates, he's at a loss. Weird situation with Bowman. Every now and then you see him pull out a move where you're like, "wow, that's some offensive upside", like if anybody remembers that toe drag chance against Florida I believe it was where he made a defender look like a plain fool out there. And for as much trash as he gets for his shot, it is in the upper scale of NHL players but he rarely gets into open ice to use it. He seems to lack the instinctive quality of getting lost in the weeds that Tlusty has mastered. The kind where nobody in the building sees him until the puck is already being fired on net. At this level you're not going to flat out beat too many goaltenders with your shot unless it's perfect.

What has kept him up here is the fact that he's a big body that shows a willingness to mix it up, even if his hits aren't bone jarring type hits, and that he can play a responsible defensive shift which is more than we can say for guys like Boychuk and Dalpe. I think it's time we realize that the guys we thought were good enough just simply weren't good enough. Bowman realized that in order to hang on, he had to change his game drastically up here. The other two never picked that up. Bowman always seemed the most sour about being sent back down, which was good. In a lot of ways, he earned his way up here by virtue of doing what the coaches told them they wanted, even if the numbers never came out.

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03-07-2013, 05:49 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
I am becoming increasingly tired of Westgarth thinking he's a hockey player and trying some of that fancy garbage he does. Dump, forecheck, fight. Anything else needs to start with your ass in the goaltender's face. Guy is out there dipsy doodling like he's Semin sometimes. You literally have one job.

Compared against Wallace, he makes Wallace look like Clark Gillies.
thats all cool but......Riley Nash thread.....

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03-07-2013, 06:00 AM
  #68
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All right listen people. Its a 3C role. Whether its Nash, Jokinen, Ruutu, Brent, or some bum off the street as our 3C, they arent exactly relied upon to produce points. We were giving Jokinen crap for not getting points there because we are used to him in a top 6 role. He wasnt playing the top 6, the points weren't coming. (granted, he moved to wing and they started coming, but thats a non-issue here) The point im trying to make is, Riley Nash's success as 3C can't be determined by point production. Look at his games vs Bowman's games. Neither get points (Actually Nash has more with 1g, 3a in 9 games vs Bowman's 1g, 1a in 21 games) but Nash just LOOKS naturally comfortable out there, in all situations. And im not saying Riley hasn't made mistakes, but when he has he has looked poised in recovering from them. Bowman seems to just get lost in what to do when he messes up. Obviously, both have different roles, but since some of you keep comparing the 2 for whatever reason, there is my analysis, simple as it may be. Nash, to me, is perfect for the 3C spot. Keep him there, dont spend money on a "known" filler. Apply that to some D help at the deadline, call it good.

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03-07-2013, 06:29 AM
  #69
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Six years? He is just into his 4th pro season. But you are right. Bowman sucks and will always suck because you say so and say it louder. 18 points in 90 games is a very large sample size. Especially with all the ice time he is given.
How many AHL players could score 18 points in 90 games if they had a general manager incompetent enough to allow them a roster spot? Probably hundreds. I know that waiver fodder Zach Boychuk can because he has (with even less ice time). Dalpe, too. Probably even Samson.

Bowman averaged 13 minutes a game last year and is averaging almost 12 this year (was around 14 minutes a game before Muller finally realized that he is useless).

90 games is a huge sample size, far more than 95% of players of Bowman's talent level are given.

To be honest Bowman disgusts me, or to be more precise the coaching staff/management's love affair with him disgusts me. He is a bad hockey player who has managed to be a regular in the lineup for almost 60 games just because he's willing to play a safe game and attempt to check people. It's great that Bowman is coachable and doesn't think he's way more talented than he actually he is, but how exactly any of this helps the Carolina Hurricanes win hockey games is totally perplexing. Bowman turns whatever line he's on into a 4th line. And not a good 4th line, either. A Derek Joslin 4th line.

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03-07-2013, 06:37 AM
  #70
Boom Boom Anton
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All right listen people. Its a 3C role. Whether its Nash, Jokinen, Ruutu, Brent, or some bum off the street as our 3C, they arent exactly relied upon to produce points.
Except at the start of the season, Muller stated he wanted some production out of the 3rd line and didn't want it to be a defensive line. So, maybe in the past the 3rd line wasn't relied upon for points, but based on Muller's own comments, he expects some production from them.

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03-07-2013, 07:55 AM
  #71
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All right listen people. Its a 3C role. Whether its Nash, Jokinen, Ruutu, Brent, or some bum off the street as our 3C, they arent exactly relied upon to produce points.
Nevertheless, we need to have some sort of depth scoring if we are going to be more than a middling team. We might not judge Nash entirely on his point production, but he is going to have to help put something on the board or else we've essentially got two 4th lines.

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03-07-2013, 08:22 AM
  #72
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Except at the start of the season, Muller stated he wanted some production out of the 3rd line and didn't want it to be a defensive line. So, maybe in the past the 3rd line wasn't relied upon for points, but based on Muller's own comments, he expects some production from them.
I would say he's gotten some in the last few games. At any rate generating offense doesn't necessarily have to mean points all the time. Good forecheck and cycling, puck possession grinds the other team down, keeps the ice tilted and your goalie clean.

Look at the last game as a good example. Jokinen-Nash-Dwyer step on for a defensive shift, dump it in. Buffalo gets the puck at one point, Nash picks him clean and dumps it right back in. All told they've got Buffalo's D pinned for a good solid minute and are just wearing them out. They can't get off to change, suddenly Staal and Semin step on the ice and they don't stand a chance.

To me, that's what a third line is all about, and if you get 30 points from any given third-liner in a season, that's a bonus, not the norm.

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03-07-2013, 08:47 AM
  #73
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I would say he's gotten some in the last few games. At any rate generating offense doesn't necessarily have to mean points all the time. Good forecheck and cycling, puck possession grinds the other team down, keeps the ice tilted and your goalie clean.

Look at the last game as a good example. Jokinen-Nash-Dwyer step on for a defensive shift, dump it in. Buffalo gets the puck at one point, Nash picks him clean and dumps it right back in. All told they've got Buffalo's D pinned for a good solid minute and are just wearing them out. They can't get off to change, suddenly Staal and Semin step on the ice and they don't stand a chance.
But I think the point is that's the formula for a borderline playoff team while that is what a legit contender's 4th line does for you. Think back to Canes in 06 and what you described the J-N-D line doing is that the Adams Family line typically did.

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03-07-2013, 08:54 AM
  #74
Boom Boom Anton
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To me, that's what a third line is all about, and if you get 30 points from any given third-liner in a season, that's a bonus, not the norm.
I wouldn't say that as it pertains to playoff teams, there were numerous playoff teams with multiple 3rd liners with > 30 points last season.

Boston, NJD, PHI, PITT, NYR for instance. So given what Muller was saying AND that this team desires to be a playoff team, I think it's reasonable to expect they'll be able to score more than they have.


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03-07-2013, 08:58 AM
  #75
tarheelhockey
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If you look at a 4th line of Westgarth/Brent/Wallace, there is no mystery. Fighter/Multipurpose/Hitter.
Westgarth is a fighter, just like Bowman is an elite sniper.

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